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On June 03 2012 03:23 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:16 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:14 nennx wrote:
Honestly, you'd have to try fail a class. I can't believe we're having this discussion. If you fail a class, its because you 100% fucked up and its 100% your fault, its not the teachers fault. Every teacher lets you make up tests if they know before hand and you have a REAL excuse, and same goes for turning in homework (you can turn things in early, you know). This is a dumb discussion, if you're not willing to give someone a zero because they missed something, you aren't being a good teacher. Period. You really have no idea what it is like to be most kids. So many kids struggle in school, and this kid of attitude from kids who are not struggling makes me sick. A kid's mother's boyfriend shot the mother dead last week. The kid is doing terrible in my class. I guess I should just fail the kid ehh? Plenty of kids have trouble with math in particular, and they are working quite hard to improve. Are they A students? NO, but that does not mean I should fail them straight off. Its sick to me that you'd give someone the stamp of approval when someone is not ready to move on to the next level of education when they are clearly not ready. You're just increasing the chances that they will have trouble in more advanced classes (especially if its math).
Yeah, you don't understand what is going on. I am not trying to incite you, just being blunt. Giving a kid 40%s the whole way flunks them right good. If a student demonstrates to me outside of the homework that they are above average in my class, but do not do any of the homework, I will likely pass them. Not with an A, but with the lowest passing grade available. The kid doesn't win. No one can show off a C, but on the other hand, the kid knows the stuff so what am I proving my holding him/her back?
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On June 03 2012 03:25 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:17 1Eris1 wrote:On June 03 2012 03:09 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:06 1Eris1 wrote:On June 03 2012 03:02 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 02:59 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc.. Exactly. On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much.... Jinro has it right as well. A 0 only says that the teacher is pissed, and has put in 0 effort to evaluate his/her students. That's bullshit. The kid is the one putting in 0 effort, not the teacher. If he misses the test because he's sick, then fine, give him a retake, that's fair because being sick is usually out of your control. But if he just chooses not to go then why the hell should he be rewarded? How is that fair to all the other kids who showed for ALL 6 of the quizes? How is Failing a kid on a quiz rewarding them? On June 03 2012 03:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 03 2012 03:07 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz. If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer. Yeah, but what if a kid works all night, and then gets everything wrong. 0 for that kid too? Also, kids do work that isn't something that will be graded. I don't grade on class participation, but that doesn't mean kids aren't working in my class. "Physics teacher Lynden Dorval gave students a zero for missed tests and assignments" READ THE DESCRIPTION!!!! Like I said above, a 40% is still failing. There is no reward. The point system is so heavy on the lower end if makes no sense mathematically. What does grading school have to do with it? We could theoretically switch 0-20% F, 20-40% D, etc etc. But colleges would then only look for people with A's, instead of those with A's and B's right now. It's not about the letter, it's about what it implies. because a 0 will skew you average so that even if you try to make it up later (to do better later to compensate or whatever), it will make it difficult or almost impossible to do so without weighting grades differently you see? assuming no weighting of grades for example, maybe i for got to do an assignment oops i got a 0. i try for hard from now on to do much better. i get a 100% on the next assignment, i'm still failing (50%) i get another 100 (200/3), ii'm still in D range. of course this 100 scenario is highly unlikely, what if i'm just an average student and get 70's etc...?, then i could be going all semester and end up with a barely passing (or not passing grade). translate that into GPA, it becomes so that after you do badly once with a 0, there is very little incentive to try hard anymore. again this is assuming no weighting of grades, no special treatment, or no dropping of grades etc.. he's talking about the effect of outliers on arithmetic average (mainly at the lower end of the grading spectrum) and how that adversely affects your GPA by distorting incentives.
The incentive was there from the very beginning, you just choose not to act on it. One 0% on a missed assignment does not ruin your GPA forever. If that makes it so you can't try hard anymore, then frankly you're not cut out for much.
Besides, most teachers are very willing to help you work through things like these, to give you extra days, or partial credit if something is late. It takes an immense lack of effort to actually get a 0% on something, unless the teacher has some sort of vendetta, in which case you are allowed to go to the higher ups. Getting them involved because you were lazy or stupid however, is ridiculous.
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On June 03 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Please put this in the OPhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.htmlShow nested quote +Dorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.
"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."
He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.
Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said.
Other schools in the Edmonton public system also use no-zero marking, he said.
It is clear that he gives several opportunities for students to not get a 0. The only time students get a 0, is when they are obviously adamant on getting a 0.
If this is the case, aboslutely they deserve 0s. If the teacher GIVES you the chance to turn in even a partially completed assignment for partial credit and you still ignore it, a 0 is the only option available thats reasonable. I have a feeling this is coming from parents and the school board getting up in arms over 'their son or daughter getting labelled by receiving a 0'...these cases happened a lot in my old school district...luckily they would get shot down before causing the teacher too much hassle
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You do nothing you get nothing. An Eye for an Eye, A tooth for a Tooth and A Zero for a zero
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On June 03 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Please put this in the OPhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.htmlShow nested quote +Dorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.
"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."
He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.
Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said.
Other schools in the Edmonton public system also use no-zero marking, he said.
It is clear that he gives several opportunities for students to not get a 0. The only time students get a 0, is when they are obviously adamant on getting a 0.
But shouldn't the teacher be more concerned about whether or not the student knows the material or not?
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On June 03 2012 03:28 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:21 JustPassingBy wrote:On June 03 2012 03:16 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:14 nennx wrote:
Honestly, you'd have to try fail a class. I can't believe we're having this discussion. If you fail a class, its because you 100% fucked up and its 100% your fault, its not the teachers fault. Every teacher lets you make up tests if they know before hand and you have a REAL excuse, and same goes for turning in homework (you can turn things in early, you know). This is a dumb discussion, if you're not willing to give someone a zero because they missed something, you aren't being a good teacher. Period. You really have no idea what it is like to be most kids. So many kids struggle in school, and this kid of attitude from kids who are not struggling makes me sick. A kid's mother's boyfriend shot the mother dead last week. The kid is doing terrible in my class. I guess I should just fail the kid ehh? Plenty of kids have trouble with math in particular, and they are working quite hard to improve. Are they A students? NO, but that does not mean I should fail them straight off. Sorry, but you cannot let people pass exams because of personal tragedies that had fallen upon them. They deserve special care, they deserve psycological support, but they do not deserve to pass the course. In the end, you won't do them a favor if you put them into a more advanced class if they haven't understood the easier topics before. I know what you mean, but that isn't exactly my point. Probably my fault. What I am trying to get at is that when students do 0% of the homework, they haven't done 0 work if they are active in my class and participating. That is work too, and I can reward that with a higher than a 0% on the homework. You are right though that when this kid does none of the work outside of class for the rest of the year, there will be other ways in which I will be evaluating the kid's knowledge. Sure, the kid will have less work to do than the others but no one would want to trade shoes.
And you have full control over how you grade your class. If you want to think that participation is fine and = homework, then that's up to you. If someone else thinks that doing homework is important in learning, then thats how they will grade their class. I don't see what the issue is, either is perfectly acceptable and you can fully justify grades you give however you want.
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Seems this whole thing is about the short term gain of not hurting the kids' (and parents') feelings, vs. molding them into better, more productive people and preparing them to contribute to the pursuits of humanity.
I think there is too much emphasis on giving a children a "happy" (which in most cases seems to be defined as "easy") childhood, rather than giving them a path towards a happy adulthood, both for them and for those they interact with. This is more the fault of the parents than the schools. The whole thing comes down to pleasing their children for the short term without looking at the big picture.
Although obviously it's far more complicated than this, and since I'm not a psychologist I'm sure it's orders of magnitude more complicated than I can even guess. So I may be wrong.
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My wife is a middle school teacher. She also has a lot of kids who simply don't turn in work. 9 times out of 10, you can look at the kids parent and know why. Apples don't fall far from the tree they grew on.
Example: one kid (who didn't do a single thing all year -- failing.) His mom finally comes to school to talk to a teacher... because the teacher took the kid's Ipod. Not to find out what is going on with his classes, not to see how he can save his grade... to get his damn Ipod back.
If the parent doesn't care if the kid does work, the kid certainly won't care. Especially since all kids know that they will just be passed along, because that his been the case since they were old enough to be graded.
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On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it.
I agree, school needs to be more about giving kids work ethic. High school is pretty much a joke, none of the subjects are hard so don't brag about being smart because you think high school english is easy.
The way high schools are operating now is hurting kids in the long run because many kids don't really know how to work hard at something. I breezed through highschool doing minimal work like many others, then when I went to university i was like "WTF I HAVE TO WORK?!", and did pretty terrible my first year. This kind of thing can be avoided if highschools actually forced students to work hard for their marks.
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On June 03 2012 03:31 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:05 Faveokatro wrote:
^ This. The "I'm too smart/knowledgeable I don't need to do homework" never made sense to me. If it was that easy for you, the assignment would take almost no time, right? I don't understand where this attitude comes from, I was taking multi-variable calc in middle school and guess what. I still did my homework. I wasn't special and you certainly aren't special for earning a B on an English test. Are you joking? That isn't even that good.
As pointed out by others, the most common excuses of "my teacher sucks" or "my teacher is an asshole" are equally irrelevant. You'll have shitty professors, you'll have shitty bosses, you'll deal with a LOT of crappy coworkers in your life. The value you bring isn't solely in the quality of work you produce - even more solitary/quantifiable work like research is now very team-based. You need to learn how to tolerate and make the best of situations with people you don't like. Since you seem to think that those rules don't apply to when you enter "the real world," let me assure you that that isn't the case. Even as a personal trainer, you have bosses. Many of them. They're called clients. Uh what. Easy things can be very time consuming. And when it's easy and time consuming, it's tedious.
And students in school have much more important things to do with their time than what they are being graded for. It doesn't matter that you think it's tedius or time consuming. What matters is the teachers opinion since they are the once your parents are paying to educate you. If the teacher thinks it's worth doing for a grade, it's worth doing.
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Wait.. How's the grade system like in USA? In Sweden it's from F-A, F being the lowest and A highest ofcourse.
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On June 03 2012 03:33 Blasterion wrote:
You do nothing you get nothing. An Eye for an Eye, A tooth for a Tooth and A Zero for a zero
If a student hits you, you hit him back? Ok, that is unfair to say, but as micronesia pointed out, this kind of thinking only distances you from the students, and often leads to them not only giving up, but making things harder for every other kid.
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On June 03 2012 03:33 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Please put this in the OPhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.htmlDorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.
"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."
He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.
Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said.
Other schools in the Edmonton public system also use no-zero marking, he said.
It is clear that he gives several opportunities for students to not get a 0. The only time students get a 0, is when they are obviously adamant on getting a 0. But shouldn't the teacher be more concerned about whether or not the student knows the material or not?
Yes, but seeing as the students have been choosing not to take them, the only option is a 0. The teacher's responsibility is not to chase down every single student and force them to take a test; if the students avoid all the options the teacher presents (sounds like there were more than 1, although not confirmed), what else could he do?
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On June 03 2012 03:25 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:17 1Eris1 wrote:On June 03 2012 03:09 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:06 1Eris1 wrote:On June 03 2012 03:02 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 02:59 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc.. Exactly. On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much.... Jinro has it right as well. A 0 only says that the teacher is pissed, and has put in 0 effort to evaluate his/her students. That's bullshit. The kid is the one putting in 0 effort, not the teacher. If he misses the test because he's sick, then fine, give him a retake, that's fair because being sick is usually out of your control. But if he just chooses not to go then why the hell should he be rewarded? How is that fair to all the other kids who showed for ALL 6 of the quizes? How is Failing a kid on a quiz rewarding them? On June 03 2012 03:09 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 03 2012 03:07 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz. If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer. Yeah, but what if a kid works all night, and then gets everything wrong. 0 for that kid too? Also, kids do work that isn't something that will be graded. I don't grade on class participation, but that doesn't mean kids aren't working in my class. "Physics teacher Lynden Dorval gave students a zero for missed tests and assignments" READ THE DESCRIPTION!!!! Like I said above, a 40% is still failing. There is no reward. The point system is so heavy on the lower end if makes no sense mathematically. What does grading school have to do with it? We could theoretically switch 0-20% F, 20-40% D, etc etc. But colleges would then only look for people with A's, instead of those with A's and B's right now. It's not about the letter, it's about what it implies. because a 0 will skew you average so that even if you try to make it up later (to do better later to compensate or whatever), it will make it difficult or almost impossible to do so without weighting grades differently you see? assuming no weighting of grades for example, maybe i for got to do an assignment oops i got a 0. i try for hard from now on to do much better. i get a 100% on the next assignment, i'm still failing (50%) i get another 100 (200/3), ii'm still in D range. of course this 100 scenario is highly unlikely, what if i'm just an average student and get 70's etc...?, then i could be going all semester and end up with a barely passing (or not passing grade). translate that into GPA, it becomes so that after you do badly once with a 0, there is very little incentive to try hard anymore. again this is assuming no weighting of grades, no special treatment, or no dropping of grades etc.. he's talking about the effect of outliers on arithmetic average (mainly at the lower end of the grading spectrum) and how that adversely affects your GPA by distorting incentives.
If an assignment is big enough that getting a 0 will ruin your grade no matter what, then you shouldn't have "forgotten" to do it in the first place. If you have a real reason for missing an assignment, then it's your responsibility to talk to the teacher to arrange a make-up or something. I understand that not all teachers are nice, but I've never had a teacher in high school who gave out 0's without giving the student a chance to make up for it somehow. I've also never heard of anyone who did well in general but got a low grade because he got 0 for a missed assignment. But if a student doesn't do half the assignments, does average for the ones he does hand in, and makes no effort to make up for the missed assignments, I think he does not deserve a passing grade.
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On June 03 2012 03:32 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:23 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 03:16 Trezeguet wrote:On June 03 2012 03:14 nennx wrote:
Honestly, you'd have to try fail a class. I can't believe we're having this discussion. If you fail a class, its because you 100% fucked up and its 100% your fault, its not the teachers fault. Every teacher lets you make up tests if they know before hand and you have a REAL excuse, and same goes for turning in homework (you can turn things in early, you know). This is a dumb discussion, if you're not willing to give someone a zero because they missed something, you aren't being a good teacher. Period. You really have no idea what it is like to be most kids. So many kids struggle in school, and this kid of attitude from kids who are not struggling makes me sick. A kid's mother's boyfriend shot the mother dead last week. The kid is doing terrible in my class. I guess I should just fail the kid ehh? Plenty of kids have trouble with math in particular, and they are working quite hard to improve. Are they A students? NO, but that does not mean I should fail them straight off. Its sick to me that you'd give someone the stamp of approval when someone is not ready to move on to the next level of education when they are clearly not ready. You're just increasing the chances that they will have trouble in more advanced classes (especially if its math). Yeah, you don't understand what is going on. I am not trying to incite you, just being blunt. Giving a kid 40%s the whole way flunks them right good. If a student demonstrates to me outside of the homework that they are above average in my class, but do not do any of the homework, I will likely pass them. Not with an A, but with the lowest passing grade available. The kid doesn't win. No one can show off a C, but on the other hand, the kid knows the stuff so what am I proving my holding him/her back?
That in no way shows that I know anything about the subject. When you do physics, you learn various subtopics that often don't have much crossover.
Your policy means that I can just study photonics, and not attend classes for 3/4 of the whole year and I still pass "physics". That's unfair to the kids who have had to attend all year and get a similar grade because their effort has to be distributed across more learning topics.
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I don't think anyone is claiming or suggesting a 0 is for anything other than not doing the assignment, after the teacher has given them multiple opportunities to make it up. Partial done assignments deserve partial credit, demonstrating mastery and understanding of the concepts even with a poor grade on tests can be mitigated with lower passing grades, but if a student ignores all the ways in which a teacher is trying to assess their performance and deliberately does not do work, 0's are justified for these cases
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On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind.
Your point may be valid for someone like that, but the teacher is giving 0s to people who absolutely don't do anything/skip classes all the time. Don't mix things up.
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On June 03 2012 03:35 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:33 Blasterion wrote:
You do nothing you get nothing. An Eye for an Eye, A tooth for a Tooth and A Zero for a zero If a student hits you, you hit him back? Ok, that is unfair to say, but as micronesia pointed out, this kind of thinking only distances you from the students, and often leads to them not only giving up, but making things harder for every other kid.
It's a form of expressions that you Americans use, I thought I'd give it a try. But that's beside the point, What good is there in incomplete work? It's only the results that matter, and the result is incomplete work then that warrants a 0
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On June 03 2012 03:11 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:05 Faveokatro wrote:
^ This. The "I'm too smart/knowledgeable I don't need to do homework" never made sense to me. If it was that easy for you, the assignment would take almost no time, right? I don't understand where this attitude comes from, I was taking multi-variable calc in middle school and guess what. I still did my homework. I wasn't special and you certainly aren't special for earning a B on an English test. Are you joking? That isn't even that good.
As pointed out by others, the most common excuses of "my teacher sucks" or "my teacher is an asshole" are equally irrelevant. You'll have shitty professors, you'll have shitty bosses, you'll deal with a LOT of crappy coworkers in your life. The value you bring isn't solely in the quality of work you produce - even more solitary/quantifiable work like research is now very team-based. You need to learn how to tolerate and make the best of situations with people you don't like. Since you seem to think that those rules don't apply to when you enter "the real world," let me assure you that that isn't the case. Even as a personal trainer, you have bosses. Many of them. They're called clients. you're lucky then to go to a school system that allows you to do that. i skipped 2 years in math and even then i remember having a lot of difficulty doing so, many school officials are extremely reluctant to ALLOW you to do this kind of thing, only in GOOD school districts (aka you parents make a good living) that you are allowed to do something. if i was allowed to take calculus early, i probably would have thought math was more interesting etc... instead you have to trudge through years of algebra (like essentially algebra 2 is the same as algebra 1, precalc could be learned with algebra 2 etc...) this work analogy is absolutely fucking terrible. you are paid for your work, your time, school is not the same at all. if it is boring, who the fuck cares get paid blow trees right. actually what you say is false, have you never gone to a weed out course, where they give you a ton of easy monotonous work that simply occupies a lot of time?
You do know you have time outside of school to, I don't know, learn things you want to learn? My school didn't let me, I took the courses on my own. Hence, I had to do grade-level homework as well.
Your comment on work being paid is irrelevant. I've seen the same mindset among my classmates now that we're in the workforce. "I didn't get a degree to collate and bind presentations" blah blah blah.
There's also only weedout courses for specific paths, generally speaking. Like Orgo for premed. They're very rarely a required course, if those at all.
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On June 03 2012 03:33 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Please put this in the OPhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.htmlDorval said he always gave uncompleted work what is called "reluctant zeros," where his students were given a number of opportunities to make up the assignment and have the zero replaced with a mark.
"Most of my students did that," he said. "By the end of the year, I hardly had any zeros at all."
He does recall however, one student who had only completed six of 15 items.
Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said.
Other schools in the Edmonton public system also use no-zero marking, he said.
It is clear that he gives several opportunities for students to not get a 0. The only time students get a 0, is when they are obviously adamant on getting a 0. But shouldn't the teacher be more concerned about whether or not the student knows the material or not?
It is the teachers responsibility to teach students. Not to make sure they get out of bed on time.
If a student is adamant on getting a 0 at all costs, he is unteachable. Maybe he needs counselling, but again, teachers are not qualified to do that.
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EPT
