EPTTeacher suspended for giving zeros - Page 21
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Shellshock
United States97274 Posts
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
I guess what the IB is trying to do is to create a well rounded student, and prepare them for university life. I've asked various friends who just entered university, and I found out that those people that take IB have it easier as to intergrating into university life. Now I'm not trying to promote the IB or anything, but I feel that the purpose of school, high school to be specific is that it it suppose the train the students, not just educate them but "improve" their behaviour as well, and to prepare the students for university/adult life. The IB is a good example of such thing, as it removes laziness from the equation and forces a student to at least commit to some aspects of school work. Going back to the OP's point, giving zero might be a harsh way of punishing the students, but if all else fails I can only see as the only way to make the students go back on the right track. Life is harsh, and sometimes sacrifices are neccessary. Thanks for reading  | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On June 04 2012 15:06 Shellshock1122 wrote: What? When did teachers stop giving 0s? I'm not that old. When I was in high school still 3 years ago we got 0s for not turning stuff in. This teacher was in the right. This whole thing is just utterly ridiculous. We need to stop holding everyone's hand and just passing them because they're enrolled. If they aren't willing to do the work they don't deserve any credit. Yeah, wtf? So how does this work, do you get like a 70/100 for not turning in a homework assignment nowadays? What a joke. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On June 04 2012 15:02 SimoNostalgia wrote: Well the "school" cop works for the school. Like a teacher works at a school. And he got fired like the teacher got suspended. That is how I find it relevant. Just a personal story. If a teacher has been teaching for 35 years or so, that is experience right there. A zero is a grade. And real life does require due dates. If a student fails to turn in an assignment on the date it is required then a zero is appropriate. I feel bad for the teacher, because I feel he was given wrong judgement by his board. Their system should change, not the teacher. And besides, the teacher let his students turn in their assignments late, so there really should not be any problem with the teacher, just the students who were lazy to not turn in their assignments. I don't necessarily agree with the system either; the teacher certainly does seem experienced and it seems he gives students plenty of chances to hand in their work. I was raised in schools where not doing your work = getting zeroes as well, and that made sense to us too. That being said, surely there's a better way to get the policy changed than being insubordinate and risking your job. Quite obviously, the teacher still didn't do what his employer asked him to do, so he still deserves his punishment. You can't just disobey your boss and not expect consequences. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 04 2012 21:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I don't necessarily agree with the system either; the teacher certainly does seem experienced and it seems he gives students plenty of chances to hand in their work. I was raised in schools where not doing your work = getting zeroes as well, and that made sense to us too. That being said, surely there's a better way to get the policy changed than being insubordinate and risking your job. Quite obviously, the teacher still didn't do what his employer asked him to do, so he still deserves his punishment. You can't just disobey your boss and not expect consequences. Im pretty sure he complained, a lot. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On June 03 2012 01:39 Ripebananaa wrote: More teachers need to have the guts to give 0s. I used to see many people doing dickall in highschool, and still passed without deserving. I did dick all in high school. and I absolutely deserved to pass. I literally showed up for maybe 10 classes of my Advanced Calculus math in grade 12 and still got through easily. I only showed up for test days and my exams. I passed with a 50 on the dot. (I skipped my final exam knowing I already had the 50) I'd already taken advanced Calculus prior to grade 11 and knew all the work to begin with. I literally aced every test, nothing below 95%. I could answer any question, solve any proof, name and explain any equation in the grade 12 books. But I'm at the bottom of the passing class, why? Because school doesn't reward intelligence. AT ALL. Almost all of your grade in school is gruntwork. No matter how much of what they are already teaching you already know, you are still forced to do hours upon hours of work OUTSIDE of school to have grades that are sufficient. Valuable time that could be learned doing other things. The problem is not "incompletes", the problem is the bullshit called homework that especially high schools still force kids to do. If it can't be done during class, it shouldn't be done. A lot of students from poorer families also have to work through their high school years which can leave them almost no spare time to themselves, and can cause the less intelligent students to simply give up. Hence the large amount of drop-outs. If the school policies nowadays are trying to fix that with "incompletes" so that smart students who don't want to deal with absolute BS at certain times during the year yet are still smarter than everyone by a longshot, then I'm all for it. Teachers like this need to be suspended. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
I'm pretty sure you're pretty sure  If he wants to do something that's not allowed by policy of School A so badly, he can just attempt to get a job in School B. It's not like there are no school systems that give out zeroes anymore. I know for a fact that mine still does (my mom still works at my old high school and I just talked to her). He might get his wish after all, although leaving on not-so-good terms probably isn't the best way to do it. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
The problem comes when you realize that children don't take their responsibilities seriously, and moreso, they're forced to go to school, it's not something most people particularly enjoy, which is a big component in being a hard worker. Most people can't work hard on something they don't care for; they need something they're passionate about. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
On June 04 2012 22:25 Figgy wrote: I did dick all in high school. and I absolutely deserved to pass. I literally showed up for maybe 10 classes of my Advanced Calculus math in grade 12 and still got through easily. I only showed up for test days and my exams. I passed with a 50 on the dot. (I skipped my final exam knowing I already had the 50) I'd already taken advanced Calculus prior to grade 11 and knew all the work to begin with. I literally aced every test, nothing below 95%. I could answer any question, solve any proof, name and explain any equation in the grade 12 books. But I'm at the bottom of the passing class, why? Because school doesn't reward intelligence. AT ALL. Almost all of your grade in school is gruntwork. No matter how much of what they are already teaching you already know, you are still forced to do hours upon hours of work OUTSIDE of school to have grades that are sufficient. Valuable time that could be learned doing other things. The problem is not "incompletes", the problem is the bullshit called homework that especially high schools still force kids to do. If it can't be done during class, it shouldn't be done. A lot of students from poorer families also have to work through their high school years which can leave them almost no spare time to themselves, and can cause the less intelligent students to simply give up. Hence the large amount of drop-outs. If the school policies nowadays are trying to fix that with "incompletes" so that smart students who don't want to deal with absolute BS at certain times during the year yet are still smarter than everyone by a longshot, then I'm all for it. Teachers like this need to be suspended. There is a reason for this. To get good scores from test, it is by far the most time efficient to just do a ton of studying right before the test. This is bad thou because usually this just means the student only has the knowledge on hes/her short term memory. However, if you study certain things for a long period of time, multiple times, the knowledge usually gets into long term memory, which is much more useful. So if a student gets good scores from assignments and test of the same subject over a long period of time, this usually proves that the knowledge has gotten into the long term memory so the student gets a good grade. If a student just aces one test, but has not proven knowledge at any other times, it does not really mean anything at all, and there is a good reason to give the student a bad grade. You might say that "I actually still remember all the stuff because I am smart, so the school should still give good grades." Well guess what. The school is designed to be the the best place to study for the masses, so you should just suck it up because the school wont do special arrangements for the people who have it easy. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On June 04 2012 22:25 Figgy wrote: I did dick all in high school. and I absolutely deserved to pass. I literally showed up for maybe 10 classes of my Advanced Calculus math in grade 12 and still got through easily. I only showed up for test days and my exams. I passed with a 50 on the dot. (I skipped my final exam knowing I already had the 50) I'd already taken advanced Calculus prior to grade 11 and knew all the work to begin with. I literally aced every test, nothing below 95%. I could answer any question, solve any proof, name and explain any equation in the grade 12 books. But I'm at the bottom of the passing class, why? Because school doesn't reward intelligence. AT ALL. Almost all of your grade in school is gruntwork. No matter how much of what they are already teaching you already know, you are still forced to do hours upon hours of work OUTSIDE of school to have grades that are sufficient. Valuable time that could be learned doing other things. The problem is not "incompletes", the problem is the bullshit called homework that especially high schools still force kids to do. If it can't be done during class, it shouldn't be done. A lot of students from poorer families also have to work through their high school years which can leave them almost no spare time to themselves, and can cause the less intelligent students to simply give up. Hence the large amount of drop-outs. If the school policies nowadays are trying to fix that with "incompletes" so that smart students who don't want to deal with absolute BS at certain times during the year yet are still smarter than everyone by a longshot, then I'm all for it. Teachers like this need to be suspended. As a high school teacher, this post makes me laugh. The sense of entitlement and level of conceit (and hypocrisy) here is ludicrous. School absolutely does reward intelligence - or as I would define it, mastery of material. As educators, we have to hold ourselves accountable for making sure those that pass have enough facility with the subject matter to succeed at the next level of study in that discipline. That's how you were able to pass - though in my school you would have failed, and deservedly so. Why? Well... It also, as it should, rewards effort. As educators, we are also responsible for preparing our students for lives beyond being in school and developing habits that will help you succeed in a job. Guess what? If you skip a day of work, you're probably going to get fired. You're going to have to work beyond your scheduled hours too. You're going to have to prepare for work outside of the workplace. If you don't do these things, then you're probably going to lose your job bceause you're costing your employer money. Employers keep the guy who works hard all day even if he's not the smartest and lay off the guy who's very talented but lazy. Lastly, we as educators are responsible for holding students accountable for their actions, because the adult world does that too. You chose to skip, you chose to blow off homework, you knew the consequences, and now you're complaining about what happened to you because of YOUR actions that you consciously performed? Ha. Sorry, you don't even know the meaning of a hard day's work and having no spare time to yourself. Life and work doesn't stop just because you don't want to deal with the BS - you have to, even if you don't want to. There's a lot more to life than knowledge, and you've got a lot more to learn than you think. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On June 04 2012 23:24 TGalore wrote: As a high school teacher, this post makes me laugh. The sense of entitlement and level of conceit (and hypocrisy) here is ludicrous. School absolutely does reward intelligence - or as I would define it, mastery of material. As educators, we have to hold ourselves accountable for making sure those that pass have enough facility with the subject matter to succeed at the next level of study in that discipline. That's how you were able to pass - though in my school you would have failed, and deservedly so. Why? Well... It also, as it should, rewards effort. As educators, we are also responsible for preparing our students for lives beyond being in school and developing habits that will help you succeed in a job. Guess what? If you skip a day of work, you're probably going to get fired. You're going to have to work beyond your scheduled hours too. You're going to have to prepare for work outside of the workplace. If you don't do these things, then you're probably going to lose your job bceause you're costing your employer money. Employers keep the guy who works hard all day even if he's not the smartest and lay off the guy who's very talented but lazy. Lastly, we as educators are responsible for holding students accountable for their actions, because the adult world does that too. You chose to skip, you chose to blow off homework, you knew the consequences, and now you're complaining about what happened to you because of YOUR actions that you consciously performed? Ha. Sorry, you don't even know the meaning of a hard day's work and having no spare time to yourself. Life and work doesn't stop just because you don't want to deal with the BS - you have to, even if you don't want to. There's a lot more to life than knowledge, and you've got a lot more to learn than you think. Look, I understand that you need to work with a lot of students and you need rules that work for the majority of the students not just some individuals. But even if you think there's no easy way to solve the problem you have to admit that there is a problem. The system is often wasteful. In this case it was wasteful with the poster's time and effort. Don't say it's right, because it isn't. So yes, if a kid already has mastery of some material they should absolutely be allowed to prove it and skip the class. If you're worried about retention make them pass 3 exams 1 month apart. Cut out the lame excuses including the "this is how the real world works too" part. Sure, sometimes you just need to work within very inefficient systems and kids need to learn how to do that too. But more importantly, they should learn to fight waste and indifference whenever they can. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
I personally skipped a ton of undergraduate classes and it was nbd. I did do the homework though, you can't really get away with not doing that at a university. However, the reason that doesnt work is because for 99 out of 100 students, or maybe even 999 out of 1000, they just aren't that person. So, I think it's appropriate that there be real consequences for not turning in assignments. btw TGalore you should consider a different job. I work as long as it takes me to finish what I am doing. Even more telling is my father, a neurologist, who just comes home when he is done doing what he has to do. If he does it faster because he is simply smarter than the next person who would theoretically do his job, then he doesnt have to work as long. I get that being a teacher sucks and kids seem entitled, but there are some that deserve to be. You will have kids who are smarter than you, and your attitude seems vindictive rather than helpful. | ||
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On June 04 2012 22:25 Figgy wrote: I did dick all in high school. and I absolutely deserved to pass. I literally showed up for maybe 10 classes of my Advanced Calculus math in grade 12 and still got through easily. I only showed up for test days and my exams. I passed with a 50 on the dot. (I skipped my final exam knowing I already had the 50) I'd already taken advanced Calculus prior to grade 11 and knew all the work to begin with. I literally aced every test, nothing below 95%. I could answer any question, solve any proof, name and explain any equation in the grade 12 books. But I'm at the bottom of the passing class, why? Because school doesn't reward intelligence. AT ALL. Almost all of your grade in school is gruntwork. No matter how much of what they are already teaching you already know, you are still forced to do hours upon hours of work OUTSIDE of school to have grades that are sufficient. Valuable time that could be learned doing other things. The problem is not "incompletes", the problem is the bullshit called homework that especially high schools still force kids to do. If it can't be done during class, it shouldn't be done. A lot of students from poorer families also have to work through their high school years which can leave them almost no spare time to themselves, and can cause the less intelligent students to simply give up. Hence the large amount of drop-outs. If the school policies nowadays are trying to fix that with "incompletes" so that smart students who don't want to deal with absolute BS at certain times during the year yet are still smarter than everyone by a longshot, then I'm all for it. Teachers like this need to be suspended. As someone who had that exact same attitude in HS (Proven on paper to be far smarter than my entire class), I can say that a few years of experience taught me what an entitled arrogant and wrong little prick I was and you currently are. You will learn this at some point in the future, or you will spend your life wondering why you never get ahead. Do yourself a favor and learn from someone who had the exact same attitude as you. Lose it now or face a lifetime of misery. It took me until I was 30 to realize this. I could of been making what I make now in my mid 20s had I learned that sooner. So instead of having basically everything I want, I am just now starting to pay off years of mistakes. | ||
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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
No, every job doesn't have a bad fucking boss. If you guys think that I'm wrong by saying no to my teacher, then why the hell are you agreeing that this guy did the right thing when he stood up and said no to his boss? No, every job doesn't make you work overtime and bring home a bunch of work all the time (yes you get homework all the time), people choose what they want to work with, if you chose to be a teacher and you think it's terrible that you have to bring home work and "that's how life is" then maybe you should search for greener pastures. I don't understand this negative attitude people have towards life, that job is miserable and all that shit, people should really try work with what they like. | ||
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CustomKal
Canada749 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On June 03 2012 06:56 CustomKal wrote: For all of you getting into arguments about tests vs. homework in grading, take it from the perspective of a teacher. I'm currently in school to become one and can tell you that a test is NOT an overall expectation of what you learned in the course and never will be. Unless you want a test that is 50 pages long(Which is STILL NOT an accurate representation due to focus of a student), do your homework because that's how they grade everything else that generally isn't on your test. The other issue (one that comes up a lot these days within the curriculum) is that tests are not an accurate representation of everyone's learning styles. The way people work is that they generally fall into three categories; Kinesthetic, Oral, and Visual learners. They either learning by physically being involved to learn, listening or watching. The same goes for their tests. Someone with Visual will generally do a lot better on a written test that an kinesthetic or oral learner simply because it suits their learning style. Look at it from the other perspective and they are less likely to do well on a hands on test. Tests simply don't work because perhaps one student gets a 90 on their presentation and then get a 60 on the test. Is that an accurate representation of their intelligence and learning in the course? As for the 0 issue. This I believe was also recently introduced into the education system in my areas school board, and the way it works is to not fail students based on uncompleted work because you are unaware of potential situations at home etc. I personally don't 100% agree with it and believe that at some point a 0 should be allowable, however as a teacher this still comes back to you and whether or not you feel it is an accurate representation of the student. If it is work ethic, that is their fault and yes they should be penalized for it. However, if it is a learning or personal reason, how you way that may not be as a 0, but instead in a different fashion. This of course also can allow more freedom at the end of the year as to what mark they get, giving an accurate reflection of the student in the class, and not a representation of what they were able to do on your work (e.g. when they may be a different learner) Stop saying homework is useless. Stop saying that homework is necessary. Education as a whole is a very grey area, especially right now when many education systems around the world are now looking at what needs to be redesigned about it. One size does not fit all and never will. However, the current system is something that has worked for the majority (or at least that is assumed) for a long time. So until we find something better this is what we have. The "no zero policy" was one of the experiments that has been put in as a change to education, attempting to make it a place of learning, not grading. Agree or disagree 0's are not helpful to a students learning. Maybe to their time management, but not their learning of the subject. The same can be said for tests however. They are strictly a sense of evaluation not learning, thus are an absolutely horrible tool for learning and evaluation unless they look at all the learning I have addressed earlier. What this teacher did is not right or wrong. To enforce proper time management zero's can be necessary. But in learning they don't do anything for a students, and can in fact bring self-esteem done, demotivating them. Before any of you respond, stop and think, are you speaking from your perspective or a perspective for a greater education. One size does not fit all!!!!!! | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3320 Posts
However, it is normal to give a zero if a student doesnt do his homework. The teacher has to grade everyone, and cannot start by making exceptions based on said student's specificities (i.e. skills). Imagine a foreign language class : student A is a native speaker (immigrant opr w/e the reason). Student B is not so good. Student A is clearly losing his time and would rather not do the homework, nonetheless acing the finals. Student B, can do the same, and fail the finals (or get a lower grade) and he can also do the homework, with may be 60%, and get 70% in the finals. How would you grade that? I am sorry but if I were a teacher I would give student B a better or even grade if he does his homework and student A doesnt. Either the teacher gives homework to everyone (and if you re that good, it shouldnt take you hours, I mean come on man you are in high school!) or he doesnt give any. Yes it is boring for student A, but deal with it. Life gets boring at times, even if you get your dreamjob, you ll do boring tasks once in a while. EDIT: it gets better during university, since you can normally choose most of your topics! | ||
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winter017
United States103 Posts
I did dick all in high school. and I absolutely deserved to pass. I literally showed up for maybe 10 classes of my Advanced Calculus math in grade 12 and still got through easily. I only showed up for test days and my exams. I passed with a 50 on the dot. (I skipped my final exam knowing I already had the 50) I'd already taken advanced Calculus prior to grade 11 and knew all the work to begin with. I literally aced every test, nothing below 95%. I could answer any question, solve any proof, name and explain any equation in the grade 12 books. But I'm at the bottom of the passing class, why? Because school doesn't reward intelligence. AT ALL. Almost all of your grade in school is gruntwork. No matter how much of what they are already teaching you already know, you are still forced to do hours upon hours of work OUTSIDE of school to have grades that are sufficient. Valuable time that could be learned doing other things. The problem is not "incompletes", the problem is the bullshit called homework that especially high schools still force kids to do. If it can't be done during class, it shouldn't be done. A lot of students from poorer families also have to work through their high school years which can leave them almost no spare time to themselves, and can cause the less intelligent students to simply give up. Hence the large amount of drop-outs. If the school policies nowadays are trying to fix that with "incompletes" so that smart students who don't want to deal with absolute BS at certain times during the year yet are still smarter than everyone by a longshot, then I'm all for it. Teachers like this need to be suspended. A high school should not be rewarding intelligence. In fact no school should reward intelligence. You should be placed into a higher functioning class which makes you work at the same difficulty as all your "less intelligent" peers. This isn't always and rarely is possible just based on the resources available. Does that mean you still get to escape that work? Hell no. Sometimes you just have to do the grunt work. In fact I believe this sentiment is actually reflected in a handful of psychology studies that have been put out, which basically say you're not supposed to credit a student with being smart but how much work they are putting in. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On June 04 2012 22:45 Felnarion wrote: The unfortunate thing is...School creates a kind of "intelligence" mentality. Everyone's looking to who is the smartest, who knows the most...But that's not really all school is about; it's about hard work as well. Yeah, I was one of the ones who didn't do homework and aced tests...But now I realize that the homework is part of preparing the student for life. Sometimes there's work that needs to be taken home, and sometimes you have to stay late..That's just how it is. Homework is part of that. The problem comes when you realize that children don't take their responsibilities seriously, and moreso, they're forced to go to school, it's not something most people particularly enjoy, which is a big component in being a hard worker. Most people can't work hard on something they don't care for; they need something they're passionate about. This is the biggest problem for me aswell. half of my subjects, I don't care for. I enjoy math, physics, chemistry and biology. And try my best for them. But the other half(languages/history/latin) I just don't enjoy doing my homework for these classes. How am I supposed to work hard for something I don't enjoy? Combine that with awful teachers for some of these subjects.. I know I should just suck it up or whatever but it bothers me. | ||
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