On June 03 2012 07:09 superstartran wrote: The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. I think CustomKai is the only person who has actually presented a decent post.
95% of the homework teachers send students home with is mostly garbage anyways, and anything that is worthwhile that is sent home is mostly done by parents (usually major projects and such).
Right. Teachers totally give out homework because they want to piss off students, and parents actually have the time to sit down and do all of their kids' math problems and English essays. The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. Homework is designed to reinforce the day's lesson, set the stage for the next day, or provide other related extensions and applications.
Out of curiosity, what's your field of expertise? Educator? Going for a degree in education, perhaps? You sound like a high schooler who's just angry that he gets homework.
The only thing I can even remotely agree with you on is that parents occasionally help their kids with "major projects", but obviously "major projects" are not 95% of a student's homework.
I do like CustomKal's post as well, so that I agree with you on too.
The whole "students shouldn't have to do work if they pass tests and are smart" is complete bullshit, to be honest. Maybe in college or the workplace if you can get away with it (a lot of times you can't), but not fucking high school. High school education is just as much about teaching students to have a good work ethic and to deal with a large workload, as much as it is about teaching in the traditional sense of learning the subject matter. If students were allowed to do no work at all in high school just because they could pass tests, they would be fired from 99% of jobs that they get later in life if they adhere to that work ethic.
As someone working in a field where at least 80% of it is investing the time and effort to grind out each project, focusing heavily on it until it's completed with zero shortcuts just because I might be "intelligent", it honestly offends me the amount of people in this thread that think students shouldn't be required to do homework "as long as they're smart". Homework's primary reason for existing is for teaching students how to deal with putting in time and effort to their work. Many times in life you won't get the luxury of getting out of work just because you can answer questions on a test, sorry to kill your idealistic view of being an adult.
If the students were actually given a syllabus, and the students were actually not turning in work, it's absurd to suspend a teacher for giving them a zero.
hes probably a teacher not a single student likes... dont always think about does he have the right to give 0s but think is it necessary to give zeroes. and if it is necessary then what is he doing wrong
On June 03 2012 07:09 superstartran wrote: The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. I think CustomKai is the only person who has actually presented a decent post.
95% of the homework teachers send students home with is mostly garbage anyways, and anything that is worthwhile that is sent home is mostly done by parents (usually major projects and such).
Right. Teachers totally give out homework because they want to piss off students, and parents actually have the time to sit down and do all of their kids' math problems and English essays. The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. Homework is designed to reinforce the day's lesson, set the stage for the next day, or provide other related extensions and applications.
Out of curiosity, what's your field of expertise? Educator? Going for a degree in education, perhaps? You sound like a high schooler who's just angry that he gets homework.
The only thing I can even remotely agree with you on is that parents occasionally help their kids with "major projects", but obviously "major projects" are not 95% of a student's homework.
I do like CustomKal's post as well, so that I agree with you on too.
Teachers give out completely garbage homework now adays. Anyone who is an educator knows this, particularly 8-12.
Parents do not occasionally help their kids out on major projects. Most parents that are actually involved do alot of out of class assignments for them, mainly because alot of schools are either giving too much homework (most of which is monotonous and teaches nothing, and hardly reinforces any of the skills that they were taught), or they assign a project that is too big and should be done in class under the supervision of the teacher.
If you think I'm just an angry highschooler, keep on thinking that. Just keep on thinking that teachers actually assign meaningful homework and actually properly hold students accountable for late/missing work. The reason why schools do not allow you to fail students based on homework anymore is because a vast majority of teachers do not assign homework that is meaningful, and take the lazy way out and simply give you a zero without holding you as a student really accountable at all.
As I stated before, 95% of the people in this thread would get fired on the spot at any Title I school if they tried to enforce a "zero tolerance" policy regarding homework. Administrators across the entire United States simply do not allow you to do it anymore.
On June 03 2012 07:22 piiiT wrote: hes probably a teacher not a single student likes... dont always think about does he have the right to give 0s but think is it necessary to give zeroes. and if it is necessary then what is he doing wrong
I think that right there is a very interesting point:
Is it the teacher who is at fault for pupils doing bad, or is it the parents/pupils?
In todays society it has grown into the first, but back in the 90's when I went to primary school it sure as hell was the pupils who didn't take responsibility. I don't get how you can expect someone to teach those who aren't participating in the lessons.
EDIT: The above poster might want to watch the generalizations a bit. Completely meaningless homework? I very much doubt it. Did it ever occur to you that teachers have to give out homework which everyone in the class has a shot at completing and that the level of teaching can't surpass the average student. The school system works from the mantra of "no one left behind" meaning it'll cater to the slowest learners.
The suspension is clearly warranted whether or not the teacher is right doesn't matter the school has clear guidelines on how these incidents are supposed to be handled. That said I completely agree with what the teacher says they need to be taught the consequences of not following directions otherwise they will be in the same position he is in when they get older only they won't be there by choice. If students are smart enough to get by without doing work then they need to be placed in advanced placement programs that completely fucked me over when I got to university and actually had to learn material but, had no idea how to actually study since all I did up until that point was get do just enough to pass aka show up to class sometimes and write most of my tests.
On June 03 2012 07:22 piiiT wrote: hes probably a teacher not a single student likes... dont always think about does he have the right to give 0s but think is it necessary to give zeroes. and if it is necessary then what is he doing wrong
I think that right there is a very interesting point:
Is it the teacher who is at fault for pupils doing bad, or is it the parents/pupils?
In todays society it has grown into the first, but back in the 90's when I went to primary school it sure as hell was the pupils who didn't take responsibility. I don't get how you can expect someone to teach those who aren't participating in the lessons.
Considering the article says that the entire school has the "no zeros given" policy, I'd say it's the school's fault for the students' lack of motivation to do work. That's just based on what the article says though, the actual reason could very well be different.
On June 03 2012 07:09 superstartran wrote: The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. I think CustomKai is the only person who has actually presented a decent post.
95% of the homework teachers send students home with is mostly garbage anyways, and anything that is worthwhile that is sent home is mostly done by parents (usually major projects and such).
Right. Teachers totally give out homework because they want to piss off students, and parents actually have the time to sit down and do all of their kids' math problems and English essays. The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. Homework is designed to reinforce the day's lesson, set the stage for the next day, or provide other related extensions and applications.
Out of curiosity, what's your field of expertise? Educator? Going for a degree in education, perhaps? You sound like a high schooler who's just angry that he gets homework.
The only thing I can even remotely agree with you on is that parents occasionally help their kids with "major projects", but obviously "major projects" are not 95% of a student's homework.
I do like CustomKal's post as well, so that I agree with you on too.
Teachers give out completely garbage homework now adays. Anyone who is an educator knows this, particularly 8-12.
Parents do not occasionally help their kids out on major projects. Most parents that are actually involved do alot of out of class assignments for them, mainly because alot of schools are either giving too much homework (most of which is monotonous and teaches nothing, and hardly reinforces any of the skills that they were taught), or they assign a project that is too big and should be done in class under the supervision of the teacher.
That's twice you've made that "garbage homework" claim without justifying it. It's garbage because you don't feel like doing it?
I've already explained why it's given out. When I gave homework to my ninth, tenth, and eleventh grade math students, it was relevant algebra and geometry examples based on the material we had learned in class, and possibly a look into new material. And I promise you that 99% of parents aren't going to have the time- nor the memory from thirty years ago- to sit down and work out 10 or so problems relating to proofs or logarithms or trigonometry or anything else that we're specifically going over. It's supplementary material, and given for good reasons.
Homework is for continued practice, and to see if students truly understand the class material (among other things). Does every teacher give out the perfect quantity or quality of homework? Of course not. But to write off all homework as useless is absurd and just factually wrong. I'm doing my PhD in math education (specifically relating to the secondary education level- the level you zeroed in on), and I can tell you that students need more practice than just the 40 minutes per day that they get with the teacher and 20 other students. Most students need to grind out similar problems, and they're not going to do it on their own accord- so homework is assigned to them (and hey, they get fucking free points too, if only they would just do it!).
Also, parents getting involved with their children's education is awesome, but I still have no idea where you're coming up with these ideas ("all homework is garbage" and "parents do nearly all of children's homework").
School district: Wants to look good and have all its students have high GPA's Veteran teacher: Realizes its bullshit and isn't helping the students at all; goes a different direction School district: Still wants to look good, suspends teacher
...hw can be busywork and bullshit but a. honestly i dont know anyone who has their parents do hw b. it can also be useful and even if boring, repetition and grinding is how you get good
The problem with math is that talent plays a huge role in the mark you get. Same thing with physics. In my final year of high school we were allowed to bring a "cheat sheet" with us to the physics exam removing the need for memorization. Unlike subjects like history or geography which require grinding memorization which is a real equalizer for all students.
On June 03 2012 07:09 superstartran wrote: The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. I think CustomKai is the only person who has actually presented a decent post.
95% of the homework teachers send students home with is mostly garbage anyways, and anything that is worthwhile that is sent home is mostly done by parents (usually major projects and such).
Right. Teachers totally give out homework because they want to piss off students, and parents actually have the time to sit down and do all of their kids' math problems and English essays. The amount of misinformation in this thread baffles me. Homework is designed to reinforce the day's lesson, set the stage for the next day, or provide other related extensions and applications.
Out of curiosity, what's your field of expertise? Educator? Going for a degree in education, perhaps? You sound like a high schooler who's just angry that he gets homework.
The only thing I can even remotely agree with you on is that parents occasionally help their kids with "major projects", but obviously "major projects" are not 95% of a student's homework.
I do like CustomKal's post as well, so that I agree with you on too.
Teachers give out completely garbage homework now adays. Anyone who is an educator knows this, particularly 8-12.
Parents do not occasionally help their kids out on major projects. Most parents that are actually involved do alot of out of class assignments for them, mainly because alot of schools are either giving too much homework (most of which is monotonous and teaches nothing, and hardly reinforces any of the skills that they were taught), or they assign a project that is too big and should be done in class under the supervision of the teacher.
That's twice you've made that "garbage homework" claim without justifying it. It's garbage because you don't feel like doing it?
I've already explained why it's given out. When I gave homework to my ninth, tenth, and eleventh grade math students, it was relevant algebra and geometry examples based on the material we had learned in class, and possibly a look into new material. And I promise you that 99% of parents aren't going to have the time- nor the memory from thirty years ago- to sit down and work out 10 or so problems relating to proofs or logarithms or trigonometry or anything else that we're specifically going over. It's supplementary material, and given for good reasons.
Homework is for continued practice, and to see if students truly understand the class material (among other things). Does every teacher give out the perfect quantity or quality of homework? Of course not. But to write off all homework as useless is absurd and just factually wrong. I'm doing my PhD in math education (specifically relating to the secondary education level- the level you zeroed in on), and I can tell you that students need more practice than just the 40 minutes per day that they get with the teacher and 20 other students. Most students need to grind out similar problems, and they're not going to do it on their own accord- so homework is assigned to them (and hey, they get fucking free points too, if only they would just do it!).
Also, parents getting involved with their children's education is awesome, but I still have no idea where you're coming up with these ideas ("all homework is garbage" and "parents do nearly all of children's homework").
Exactly, in fields like math and physics, not doing practice problems is basically shooting yourself in the foot and setting yourself up to fail. I talked frequently about teaching with my old math teacher (I'm an ex-math major and was going to be a math teacher myself until a recent change of heart where I decided computer science is a better fit for me), and he found, and many others agreed with him, that mandatory homework substantially increased a student's performance on in the class. I wouldn't doubt that either, as in his class with mandatory homework my mark increased around 13% compared to my previous teacher, who had only based marks off testing. Not to mention every class average he had for the classes he taught was around 75%-80%, quite a bit higher than the other math teachers in the school. His assignments were only around an hour long, and were often easy if you paid any attention to the class lecture. I usually just finished them and any other assignments at lunch with my other nerd friends then would have no homework at night.
Most people bitter about homework are just too lazy to do it. It doesn't take long and isn't hard, especially highschool homework. Neither are projects if you don't leave them to the last minute.
On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote: As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. After all, when I'm looking for a job, my grades should show how good I am at said thing, not how nice I was in class. Just because I didn't come to every English class doesn't mean I wont come to work every day. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D...
I learned this hard way when I was like 10 years old. After that I've done 10grade worth things only on those things that I can be arsed to do. Other stuff I just put minimal effort or cheat. I've become really bitter with how school works.
Also having ADD makes school even more boring. Not like it's anyone elses fault tho.
Off topic, but is ADD something we're born with or is it something that is created by the thinkers?
On topic; This guy did the right thing, as a student currently I would far rather get a zero to show my complete negligence rather than getting a "not completed" That is because living and learning from your mistakes is, what I believe; the easiest way to teach somebody.
On June 03 2012 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The problem with math is that talent plays a huge role in the mark you get. Same thing with physics. In my final year of high school we were allowed to bring a "cheat sheet" with us to the physics exam removing the need for memorization. Unlike subjects like history or geography which require grinding memorization which is a real equalizer for all students.
Not quite sure if you are serious or not. You do realise that some are a lot better at recalling random facts than others?
In an ideal world evaluations exist so the teacher can estimate the student's knowledge and adapt the contents of his class to students needs. Grades should not be punishment and should be a reward, it should just be a tool. A bad result is actually a good tool to turn a bad student into a good one. This teacher probably knows each of the students that received a 0, and, after 30 years of teaching, he knows how to deal with them better than any of the school board. This is a sad example of how inserting competition into the educational system can be a bad thing: what is easier for schools in order to show better results, forging them or actually working to get them?
The news really shouldn't use an ambiguous term like "not completed" "not completed" can mean that an assignment was started, but not completely finished (a physics problem set that a student did not budget enough time into finishing). The teacher later elucidates that it was actually students not submitting anything, but the news station was just ambiguous. Anyways, my opinion is simple that 0's should be given out for assignments that are not submitted.
That said, he violated company policy after the headmaster called him out on it. A suspension was coming. Hopefully the board will overturn the policy with enough media attention.
At first I was shocked to hear about a "no-zero" policy, but now I understand it more. I teach college and I would never want to see something like this implemented there since it puts too much emphasis on the teacher forcing students to do the work when college should be about students learning to do their work and motivate themselves. I guess for high school it would be a gray area since they should be learning the real consequences of life, but also may need some additional guidance and motivation.
EPT
