I believe there is a higer power just because you can't see the end of the universe and you can't see the start of existance. Its something our minds can not understand , only a higher being can know that.
On May 30 2012 12:49 Knap4life wrote: I believe there is a higer power just because you can't see the end of the universe and you can't see the start of existance. Its something our minds can not understand , only a higher being can know that.
Why does believing in it make more sense than not believing in it?
Hi, I think there has been a misunderstanding. I tried to explain but it was in an earlier part of the thread.
By "pathetic fallacy" I was not calling him "pathetic." There is a thing called the "pathetic fallacy" (which I explained above) which is the mistake of imbuing natural phenomena with pathos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy
So when he talks about matter "wanting" things, he is making the mistake whose technical name is the "pathetic fallacy"
edit: I have of course the highest respect for our friend Sovern and do not wish to suggest that he is worthy of our pity.
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
well said, I agree completely. In terms of science there is nothing more than laws of physics/nature, and over time we came about. I see no purpose or reason for our creation, it just turned out this way which makes it that much more beautiful(could have just as easily been a universe of jello, although that wouldn't be as fun :p).
On May 26 2012 06:19 mmp wrote: I think Buddhism / Will to Nothing / Eastern Asceticism is a rejection of life, an anesthetizing doctrine for the masses, and ultimately not a fulfilling way to live. Its seduction is the superficial relief it provides to vain lifestyle (nihilists believe all lifestyles are vain), but that doesn't mean a purposeful lifestyle is not worth pursuing.
If you enjoy asceticism too much, you'll starve to death.
For a deep analysis, read Will to Power by Nietzsche.
Just the fact that you posted an Alpha Centauri video makes you extra-cool.
Edit: To be honest, I was hoping the OP would be literally nothingness, and be a blank post.
lol, completely agree
edit__
This thread, like all discussions I have thus far witnessed on TL regarding such subject matter, does not give the problem of language nearly its due. I say language because it is the most immediately sensible thing when you want to get people on track, but more properly I mean the inherent vagueness in signs that are not purely mathematical. Anyway, this video posted earlier is a satisfactory catch-all net for the arguments up and down the thread, which at their most insightful are really just so many ways of dividing up and commenting on arbitrary divisions of misconceptions. Though I believe we can all enjoy the efficient cataloguing exhibited by the apparently superb-knowledgeable mmp among others. ^^
You can do science, and you can do math; they shall never meet in the middle; if you cannot yourself define something in an airtight fashion, no one else will be able to do it for you. This is the nature of existence. Meanwhile, mathematical abstractions are a point of true commonality between consciousnesses (which is a false plural), but they don't actually get you anywhere you want to go except by accident. (Godel.)
What you really want to be contemplating is consciousness, not life or death; those are useful but vague terms. How is the consciousness of an animal different than your own? Is it conscious in the same way at all? A tree? A rock? A galaxy? Does it matter that constituents of your environment -- the separation of self and environment is already fuzzy and therefore silly -- (other people for example) seem to exhibit consciousness, or might they as well be so much stuff? What is it about the behavior of stuff that compels our intellect to attribute special, bounded traits to it? If you insist on viewing yourself as a distinct agent operating in a universal evolutionary crucible, ever ongoing, what can we possibly say about consciousness and how it works?
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
We view things differently, I believe that everything is programmed to do the things that they do and that nature itself is God. There is no God in a sense that like Albert Einstein I believe that things are the way that they are because nature is God and has a mind of its own and that's why nature does the things that it does.
We individuals experience existence through the lens of time and space. Events happen in a sequence, and things occupy separate space.
We experience cause and effect. One thing's existence is preceded by the existence of the thing that created it.
These concepts necessarily break down because 1) either the chain of creators has no origin and extends on to infinity or 2) there is one ultimate creator which exists outside of time/space. Either way, time and space do not account for all of existence.
So existence is infinite, but our experience is finite. We are experiencing one little possible slice out of an infinite number of variations of existence.
In the worldly sense, death simply means your are recycled into nature. As far as the "soul" surviving beyond death, with all of the same characteristics of that person--same sense of humor, knowledge, hair style, hobbies--it's merely a comforting notion to help cope with loss.
Think in terms of Darwinism. You have two species. One is apathetic about their purpose. The other sees meaning in everything. The first species probably killed itself off a long time ago. We're still here. So guess which group we derived from. This explains our strong desire to believe. I personally support belief. Anything that can help make your time more meaningful is a plus in my book.
The discovery or remembrance that existence is Nothingness might be a "relief" to someone for a brief time if they're going through something stressful, but it doesn't help us get through the day and work towards our goals. It's ultimately defeating. Why strive if it leads to nothing? Of course, our species is hard wired to strive for power, money, worldly desires and self gratification. So there is always that very powerful context of meaning in our lives. People very seldom kill themselves because life is meaningless. Rather they choose to die because life's meaning overwhelms them and their failures are intolerable. The most pessimistic philosopher of all time, E.M. Cioran, said could not be bothered to commit suicide. He simply lounged around Paris, wrote a book here and there, did a translation here and thre, until he died of natural causes.
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
We view things differently, I believe that everything is programmed to do the things that they do and that nature itself is God. There is no God in a sense that like Albert Einstein I believe that things are the way that they are because nature is God and has a mind of its own and that's why nature does the things that it does.
Well I agree with this, more or less.
"The dao is not subsumed in what is the greatest, nor is it ever absent from what is least. Therefore it is to be found complete and embodied in all things. In its vastness, it enfolds all things" (Zhuangzi)
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
We view things differently, I believe that everything is programmed to do the things that they do and that nature itself is God. There is no God in a sense that like Albert Einstein I believe that things are the way that they are because nature is God and has a mind of its own and that's why nature does the things that it does.
Actually we agree more than you think ^^" I guess I just don't see the "mind" part. Or that if there is a "mind" it has no control over anything, so why call it a mind at all? Rocks keep rocking whether they "want to" or not. As it seems everything does.
Just to add to the discussion, almost everything is controlled by stochastic (random) principles. Even bacterial chemotaxis, something which appears to be controlled by a "brain", can be perfectly modeled with mathematical equations.
At it's core that is all that matters. It doesnt matter if you are surrounded by tall buildings in a middle of a metropolis or floating completely alone in air with nothing to stimulate you whatsoever.
On May 31 2012 03:13 Heh_ wrote: Just to add to the discussion, almost everything is controlled by stochastic (random) principles. Even bacterial chemotaxis, something which appears to be controlled by a "brain", can be perfectly modeled with mathematical equations.
Many things appear random which are, in fact, not. This is one of the basic implications of complexity theory.
Keep in mind that the applicability of a mathematical model does not *necessarily* tell you anything about the ontology of the object.
edit: it's an open question whether randomness exists. Quantum mechanics doesn't necessarily mean that stochasticity is a metaphysically primitive operation (and I find this hard to believe).
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
We view things differently, I believe that everything is programmed to do the things that they do and that nature itself is God. There is no God in a sense that like Albert Einstein I believe that things are the way that they are because nature is God and has a mind of its own and that's why nature does the things that it does.
Actually we agree more than you think ^^" I guess I just don't see the "mind" part. Or that if there is a "mind" it has no control over anything, so why call it a mind at all? Rocks keep rocking whether they "want to" or not. As it seems everything does.
I see now, you're right we do agree. I can stop calling it a mind as a mind is a feature mostly attributed to animals. I see the world and nature as amazing and beautiful, and to me that is God.
Anyways, does anyone on here have any experience with meditation, I just started to get into it and today was my first time trying it and I've got to say that it is amazing for dealing with anxiety & stress and being able to look at your thoughts from a third perspective. I'm getting more and more interested in the Buddhist philosophy as a lot of it makes sense and seems very helpful to making a strong mind.
Well, I don't like meditation very much, but I do recommend that you take mushrooms in nature and think about how reality is a enormous fractal which is also the mind of god.
edit:
mind is a feature mostly attributed to animals
Yup, forgetting this is the "pathetic fallacy" :D
edit again: I would highly recommend that you read the daodejing and the zhuangzi, I think you will find these to be very enlightening texts.
On May 30 2012 11:47 Focuspants wrote: The mind doesnt create the universe. If you, Sovern, didnt exist, it wouldnt mean that the universe also didnt exist. I think the universe is beautiful. It is the most beautiful and amazing thing imaginable. That doesnt mean we effect it very much. Its not depressing at all. We are amazing, but it is far more amazing than we are. I am humbled by it.
To believe that we cant just be "mere chance" and we were made with purpose (which is a human concept, not a scientific one) means you believe in a creator. You argue that there is insufficient evidence to prove we are made by chance due to complexity, and the only method at resolving this with your beliefs, is to add a far mroe complex being, with absolutely 0 proof of its existence, that put us in order. This begs the question, what put that more complex being in its order, ad infinitum.
If you read what I said, it isnt depressing at all. I dont understand why just accepting our place in the universe, and making the most out of our lives is so depressing to some people. There doesnt need to be an afterlife, for there to be meaning in this life. We dont have to be kings of the universe, or in control of what happens after we die. All we need to do is embrace the people around us, and live happy positive lives, ones that leave a lasting impact on our loved ones, our friends, our community, however far out we want to reach. Its entirely postive, just humble.
Way to come to blind conclusions, I never said that I believe in a creator. The whole creator and infintium argument is an old one that I already knew, like I said I actually don't believe in a physical creator I just asked a why things work the way that they do question.
I just asked why matter does the things that it does. Doesn't it make sense that things in life act on whatever knowledge or brain that they have. What gave organic matter the "brain" to form together into complex cells and then evolve into life forms. Also, I do believe that the mind does create the universe. If I die the universe ceases to exist as I cease to exist.
For the last time, there is no "brain". Get that idea out of your head. You are a step ahead of yourself. What makes you think matter has a brain, or a purpose? You are assuming this. Show that before you try to find out what that purpose is.
All the complexities of math are based around some very simple axioms. Why can't all complexities of the universe be based on (relatively) simple fundamentals?
And sorry, the universe will go on long after you are gone. How was 430 BC?
430BC only existed because the mind made it exist. I will not get the idea out of my mind that cells have a brain or were programmed to do the things that they as that's the only thing that makes sense to me. We're going to continue to disagree on that so there's no point in cluttering this thread with rebuttals from both sides.
EDIT: Evidence for matter having a purpose or "brain" is all around us, evidence for that includes you and me. There's no way that matter just creates complicated living things "just because".
What about all the time your parents were alive before you? A product of the mind? And you are going to need a better rebuttal than "no way". I mean I can see the urge to look at math and go "man that must be designed" when you come up with cool shit like Euler's Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity). Or when simple ants make magnificently designed caverns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7VhvoMFn34). Or when simple neurons can be connected and end up mimicking the brain of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) Or when anything huge is looked at from too far away. Everything works because if it didn't, it wouldn't. There doesn't have to be any more reason than that.
We view things differently, I believe that everything is programmed to do the things that they do and that nature itself is God. There is no God in a sense that like Albert Einstein I believe that things are the way that they are because nature is God and has a mind of its own and that's why nature does the things that it does.
Actually we agree more than you think ^^" I guess I just don't see the "mind" part. Or that if there is a "mind" it has no control over anything, so why call it a mind at all? Rocks keep rocking whether they "want to" or not. As it seems everything does.
I see now, you're right we do agree. I can stop calling it a mind as a mind is a feature mostly attributed to animals. I see the world and nature as amazing and beautiful, and to me that is God.
Anyways, does anyone on here have any experience with meditation, I just started to get into it and today was my first time trying it and I've got to say that it is amazing for dealing with anxiety & stress and being able to look at your thoughts from a third perspective. I'm getting more and more interested in the Buddhist philosophy as a lot of it makes sense and seems very helpful to making a strong mind.
I really like meditating, though not as an activity in and of itself. I use it when I feel stressed in any way. Frustrated, angry, etc. I close my eyes and 'sink' into the 'blackness'. I watch the swirling patterns, looking for anything there. For some reason the closer I am to sleep the more distinct things appear, but most of the time it is nonsense. I breathe slowly and more actively then usual. I "concentrate" on what I am seeing, and nothing else. Of calming, sinking, slowing etc. I get these all-over body tingles (like good pins+needles) and once those are done (variable time) I open my eyes and go about my task. I have since used this to put myself to sleep at night, or at least calm myself down to the point where my body takes over. I remember once telling a friend "My God is the true objective state of the universe". I don't know if that is relevant or not but yeah...
I see the world and nature as amazing and beautiful
Meditation doesnt work for me. I am under extreme pressure in my daily life, and struggle with stress, anxiety and even depression. However, I am wired to think through everything I do analytically and extensively, and I am incapable of bringing myself to a point of mental calmness. The closest thing to meditation that works for me is listening to music. It is one of the only things I can somewhat lose myself in. I wish I could make it work, it would certainly be helpful.
As for ascribing a creator to your beliefs, you originally described matter very anthropomorphically, and ascribed human traits to it. When you said atoms have minds, and "purposefully" brought us into existence, it really wreaks of a creator. After you amended your statement above, it makes a little more sense. I dont personally agree that there is any "purpose" behind matter forming itself and evolving into modern day human beings, as that would mean that it has an end which we are the means to. There are too many things that are without "purpose" in existence. For us as 1 small unlikely but existent group of complex beings to be proof of a "plan" would be to ignore everywhere else that is uninhabitable, and without complex life as counter evidence for your claim.
I think we agree on everything except the concept of matter with "purpose".
EPT
