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On September 19 2012 11:57 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:53 frogrubdown wrote:On September 19 2012 11:44 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 11:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 19 2012 09:59 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:28 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 09:21 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:10 sevencck wrote:I think Mitt has officially thrown away any chance of winning this election, I'd be utterly amazed if he could come back at this point. Between the Palestiniains not wanting peace comment, the economy improving if he's elected even before he's had a chance to do anything comments, the 47% comments, and this latest gem. http://www.upworthy.com/mitt-romney-accidentally-confronts-a-gay-veteran-awesomeness-ensuesIt's just becoming a PR nightmare at this point, and overshadowing any legit points he might have. Edit: the video is dated 2011, but seems to be getting circulating recently, I hadn't seen it before. He already has come back, its a 1% election right now according to gallup (the most accurate poll with a 2% margin of error, predicted the most elected presidents of any poll). That video was leaked weeks ago. It resulted in nothing. So no, he hasn't thrown anything away. You're implying that the majority of people have been exposed to the 47% comments and the country has had a chance to digest them already. You're implying this won't snowball away from Mitt. He said 47% of Americans will back Obama no matter what and “my job is not to worry about those people.” (among saying other things) The election is more than a month away, the U.S. public will have alot of time to reflect on those comments. It will likely just solidify Obama's support, push those who were on the fence toward Obama, and push many Republicans toward the independent. I think that people are more concerned with Obama's failed policies, particularly to do with the economy and foreign policy, than they are of Mitt Romney's lack of concern for dissuading Obama supporters. Maybe they are more worried about what DIDN'T happen when Obama got elected. Things he PROMISED America (where good or bad, important or unimportant, he still made them). No excuse for not fulfilling them either because he controlled the House for the first 2 years of his term, and the Senate for all of it. Here you go.. Barack Obama PROMISED to: *list of things* Now I am pretty glad that SOME of these promises were broken, but that is a pretty big list of things to promise the country. Oh, here you go. Personally, I'd say he's doing alright. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/ Nice try, politifact is liberally biased. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/Compare, decide for yourself. Also, their truth-o-meter is totally flawed. Here is just one of their many misfires on their "truth/false" rating. "Romney repeats claim that Obama promised unemployment would not exceed 8 percent" Rated mostly false, under the pretense that he technically didn't "promise it", he only said that it would go up 8 percent WITHOUT the stimulus package. Yes, Obama said unemployment would exceed 8% without stimulus efforts, so (you have to use your brain now) it's implied that Obama was saying the stimulus was his way of keeping unemployment under 8%. Sounds like Romney's comment is "Mostly true" That's pretty clearly an implicature and not something entailed by what Obama literally said, though. Does politifact have an official, explicit policy concerning entailments vs implicatures? It is very inconsistent.
You could have just said you don't know whether or not they have such a statement.
Closest thing I could find: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/feb/21/principles-truth-o-meter/.
This page doesn't directly address the issue, but overall seems to express an attitude of primarily caring about entailments but being open to criticizing certain implicatures. It'd be nice for a clearer standard, though it's understandable why they'd like wiggle room.
Do you have examples of them calling comparable implicatures by conservatives lies?
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On September 19 2012 10:38 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 10:15 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 10:01 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:59 aksfjh wrote:On September 19 2012 09:46 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:37 aksfjh wrote:On September 19 2012 09:28 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 09:21 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:10 sevencck wrote:I think Mitt has officially thrown away any chance of winning this election, I'd be utterly amazed if he could come back at this point. Between the Palestiniains not wanting peace comment, the economy improving if he's elected even before he's had a chance to do anything comments, the 47% comments, and this latest gem. http://www.upworthy.com/mitt-romney-accidentally-confronts-a-gay-veteran-awesomeness-ensuesIt's just becoming a PR nightmare at this point, and overshadowing any legit points he might have. Edit: the video is dated 2011, but seems to be getting circulating recently, I hadn't seen it before. He already has come back, its a 1% election right now according to gallup (the most accurate poll with a 2% margin of error, predicted the most elected presidents of any poll). That video was leaked weeks ago. It resulted in nothing. So no, he hasn't thrown anything away. You're implying that the majority of people have been exposed to the 47% comments and the country has had a chance to digest them already. You're implying this won't snowball away from Mitt. He said 47% of Americans will back Obama no matter what and “my job is not to worry about those people.” (among saying other things) The election is more than a month away, the U.S. public will have alot of time to reflect on those comments. It will likely just solidify Obama's support, push those who were on the fence toward Obama, and push many Republicans toward the independent. It's more that it will dissuade Republicans from voting. Really? It hasn't dissuaded me and I'm Independent. That video does not convince me that Obama is the right choice for America, as such, I will still cast my vote for the most likely candidate to dethrone him, and you are foolishly ignorant if you think most people will suddenly get a change of heart and vote Obama from that video or NOT vote for the guy to unseat him. Yea, you're independent. And I thought Paul Ryan was a liar. You challenge my political stance? I am a libertarian, the OPPOSITE of a socialist. I want LESS government. LESS taxes. LESS involvement in things the government has NO BUSINESS in. The opposite of Obama is Ron Paul, not Mitt Romney, I think Mitt Romney is very similar to Obama in MANY ways, but is still a far more appealing choice than Obama is. If you think Paul Ryan is a liar, than why don't you tell me what you think of my list of BROKEN PROMISES by OBAMA the LIAR OF THE YEAR in my book. Ever been to France? No, I have been to Japan, Okinawa, Thailand, Cambodia and Malaysia, but not France.
You probably wouldn't like it there if you don't like the Government involvement. I had hoped that you've been there; always wanted to hear a libertarian's view of France.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 19 2012 12:08 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 12:01 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 11:53 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 11:51 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 11:50 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 11:48 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 11:44 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 11:18 ticklishmusic wrote:On September 19 2012 09:59 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:28 sevencck wrote: [quote]
You're implying that the majority of people have been exposed to the 47% comments and the country has had a chance to digest them already. You're implying this won't snowball away from Mitt. He said 47% of Americans will back Obama no matter what and “my job is not to worry about those people.” (among saying other things)
The election is more than a month away, the U.S. public will have alot of time to reflect on those comments. It will likely just solidify Obama's support, push those who were on the fence toward Obama, and push many Republicans toward the independent.
I think that people are more concerned with Obama's failed policies, particularly to do with the economy and foreign policy, than they are of Mitt Romney's lack of concern for dissuading Obama supporters. Maybe they are more worried about what DIDN'T happen when Obama got elected. Things he PROMISED America (where good or bad, important or unimportant, he still made them). No excuse for not fulfilling them either because he controlled the House for the first 2 years of his term, and the Senate for all of it. Here you go.. Barack Obama PROMISED to: *list of things* Now I am pretty glad that SOME of these promises were broken, but that is a pretty big list of things to promise the country. Oh, here you go. Personally, I'd say he's doing alright. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/ Nice try, politifact is liberally biased. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/Compare, decide for yourself. No particularly compelling evidence of liberal bias. Interestingly, the Tampa Bay Times has won 8 Pulitzer prizes since 1964, winning two in the year 2009. What a rag. http://www.politifactbias.com/Here you go And I suppose I won't find any conservative bias here. Has this site won a Pulitzer prize? It is a blog exposing bias. + Show Spoiler +Great example I'll C+P for you since you won't read anything that doesn't have a "Pulitzer prize". Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize in his first few weeks in office for things he was "expected to do", does that mean he deserved it?
"Ben Shapiro, writing for Breitbart.com's Big Peace, pre-emptively steals my thunder on PolitiFact's ridiculous story on Mitt Romney and the statement from the American embassy in Libya. Shapiro:
Just when you think Politifact can’t make any more of a mockery of itself than it already has – over and over and over and over again – they wade into the breach today on foreign policy. More specifically, they took issue with Mitt Romney’s statement today that “I think it’s a terrible course for America to stand in apology for our values.”
PolitiFact has a history of denying that things Mitt Romney says are apologies are, in fact, apologies. Shapiro has fun with PolitiFact's method of undercutting Romney in this case:
So, what did Politifact have to say? They interviewed three “apology experts.” Seriously. First, they interviewed Professor John Murphy, of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, who said it wasn’t an apology because “the statement does not use the word ‘apology’ or ‘apologize’ and does not use any synonym for that word.” Second, they interviewed Lauren Bloom, “an attorney and business consultant who wrote The Art of the Apology.” What did she say? Romney’s “once again allowing his emotional allergy to apology to interfere with his judgment.” Finally, they interviewed Professor Rhoda E. Howard-Hassman, who said the statement was “not an apology.”
But is that PolitiFact's fault? PolitiFact tried to contact a fourth expert who did not respond. By looking at the earlier fact checks we can confirm that the expert was conservative foreign policy analyst Nile Gardiner of the Heritage Foundation.
What did Gardiner have to say in PolitiFact's original story? Here it is:
Nile Gardiner, a foreign policy analyst with the the conservative Heritage Foundation, said Obama is definitely apologizing, and it's not good. He co-wrote the Heritage analysis, "Barack Obama's Top 10 Apologies: How the President Has Humiliated a Superpower."
"Apologizing for your own country projects an image of weakness before both allies and enemies," Gardiner said. "It sends a very clear signal that the U.S. is to blame for some major developments on the world stage. This can be used to the advanage of those who wish to undermine American global leadership."
He noted that Obama tends to be most apologetic about how the U.S. has fought terrorism and its approach to the Iraq war. "There is a very strong partisan element to his apologies, but the biggest driving factor is Obama's personal belief that the U.S. is not an exceptional, uniquely great nation," he said.
As I noted in an earlier analysis, PolitiFact completely discounted Gardiner's statement in ruling Romney "Pants on Fire" for saying Mr. Obama went on an apology tour. PolitiFact did not explain its reasons for discounting Gardiner's expertise. If partisanship was a problem then we should expect PolitiFact to find an entirely new set of experts. Choosing the expert opinion of three liberals over one conservative looks simply like an expression of partisan bias by the fact checker when unaccompanied by a solid rationale.
In the latest apology for Obama, PolitiFact's three experts make a show of distinguishing between condemnation and apology. But that approach obscures a potential relationship between condemnation and apology.
One cannot condemn an entity and apologize for that same entity at the same time with the same statement. Those aims work against each other. But very clearly, one can easily work a condemnation into an apology: "My son was bad, bad, bad, bad, bad--a thousand times bad for breaking your window, Mrs. Jones."
In the above example we have an apology and a condemnation in the same sentence. It works because the apology is directed at one entity (Mrs. Jones) while the condemnation is directed at a third party (the son). By throwing a natural ally under the bus for breaking the window, the condemner sends a clear implicit message of regret to the offended party, Mrs. Smith.
It's important to emphasize the role of an apology in both personal and international relations: An apology is an attempt to smooth things over with the offended party. Condemning the breaking of the window sends a message to Mrs. Jones that something will be done to the window breaker to help balance the scales of justice. Absent that implication, condemning the window-breaker isn't likely to sooth Mrs. Jones' ire. In the case of the Libyan embassy, embassy officials clearly released the statement with the aim of defusing anger at the United States. One can claim that it was a condemnation rather than an apology, but that's obfuscation.
It was a classic apology, delivered by implicit means." And it's biased itself. Not arguing it's a perfect website. You say politifact has liberal bias. I say your blog has conservative bias. What's the difference? You're arguing Obama made a bunch of promises he didn't keep and is a liar. This site suggests that you at best are oversimplifying things, and at worst don't have your facts straight. Not only that, you aren't even contesting the facts they put forth, you're very generally implying a bias, and trying to put forth a conservative-biased critique as evidence. Not a very compelling defense of your claim per Obama. Notwithstanding the "liberal biased" website has won a Pulitzer prize, which isn't exactly handed out like toilet paper. No, I was responding to the person who said "Paul Ryan is a liar" with a "well what does that make Obama with all of these unkept promises?" quip. I was not immediately suspicious of bias from the website and have actually found some really good information on it once you look past the truth-o-meters, but they're CLEARLY making a strong case for Obama when you go to the pants on fire page and see like 30 republicans to every 3 or 4 democrats.
Facts are facts, they are neither balanced nor biased. If Republicans lie more, they're gonna get called out on it more. It's not that politifact is biased towards liberals, facts are "biased" towards liberals, because the very nature of facts entails an imbalance if one party lies more than the other. If anything is making a strong case for Obama, it's the fact that he doesn't lie as much as Romney. Broken promises and promises yet fulfilled are not lies - deliberately breaking a promise would be a lie. Obama has lied before. Does not mean he lies nearly as much as Romney/Ryan.
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Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
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On September 19 2012 11:07 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 10:13 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 09:57 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 09:50 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 06:13 MinusPlus wrote:On September 19 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote: ... I think that a little much is being made of the significance of the 47% comments. Was it helpful? Of course not. Is it harmful? Possibly at the margins, and probably only short term. Hopefully Romney will use this as an opportunity to take the gloves off and throw out some meaty policy for people to chew on. ...
By whom? I mean...the GOP kinda built their whole convention around "You didn't build that," so calling 47% of the nation entitled, victimized dependents not worth pandering to seems significant (relatively). And that's taken in context, on video, and using the same wording. On September 19 2012 05:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:On September 19 2012 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On September 19 2012 05:53 Wolvmatt. wrote:On September 19 2012 05:47 Gorsameth wrote: How can anyone running for President say that almost half of the people in the country that he wants to lead are insignificant. Im sorry but i think a president should do more then cater to the 50.1% that voted for him. You can't give everybody everything. Ofcourse you can't but there is a different between trying to do the best for everyone and flat out dismissing 47% of your country as useless bags of meat. That's not what he did. He said it's a waste to fight for the vote of people who are already decided. How do you read that as "half the country is insignificant"? Come on people, do you think Obama is fighting for the Tea Party vote? Should he? Does that mean he dismisses them as insignificant citizens? This stuff is very basic. This reminded me. I realize the Non-Payers by State image was posted earlier, but no one juxtaposed that one with polling data by state, which had been my first thought after seeing it. So, in case anyone reading wasn't already acutely aware, here's how we supposedly stand today. ( source) ![[image loading]](http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/20100524-229-nonpayers-map-.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Pngs/Sep18.png) The interesting thing about what Romney said is that he didn't just say that 47% of Americans will vote for Obama no matter what -- it's that he also insulted a significant portion of his own base. Or maybe they aren't significant. I never know what's going to come out of this Romney guy next. (Sorry for old news & large images) LOL at that image of non-payers. That's the prime example of misleading the viewers with stats. I hope you guys are smarter than that. More rural country people are on welfare than urban dwellers. Fact of the matter is, cities pay more taxes than the countryside, and receive fewer subsidies. This is not new, or revolutionary, it's been true for decades. Jobs are in the cities, not in the countryside. Yes you can find a higher CONCENTRATION of poor people in cities. But only because there's a higher concentration of people in general. Generally the more rural the population, the more people reliant on government handouts. But being more diffuse, the poverty is more hidden. Ever bothered to consider why the image is showing a "percentage" of total population per state instead of actual numbers of non-payers? The fact is that non-payer issue is not restricted to southern states, but rather it's a nation-wide problem. The image is just trying to mislead the viewers that the problem mostly resides in GOP leaning states (oh, and I just love how it's supposed to show "top 10" non-payers states). It doesn't show just top 10 & bottom 10. It only highlights them. It lists the percentages and rank of out 50 states for every single state. Of course there are poor people in every state... alternatively in both urban and rural settings. As I stated in my post. I take from your tone you disagree with me, but the bare facts of your statement aligns with what I said. Complaining about one single chart is not going to change the reality on the ground. And that is that urban centers generally subsidize rural areas. Leaving states totally aside for the moment, rural areas tend to be more republican-leaning and urban areas more democratic-leaning. Now we can't tell for sure that it also follows that people receiving government assistance are more likely to vote Republican, while people paying taxes are more likely to vote Democratic, the statistics (and no, I'm not talking about that chart) aren't that detailed. Frankly there are large groups of both poor and well-off that vote both reliably Democratic and reliably Republican. Anyway you look at it though, Mitt Romney is pretty wrong in his understanding of the situation. It is clear that at the very least there are millions of people receiving government assistance that vote Republican. Old people, for example.
My point was that the image is being used against the southern states; it is implying that leading non-payers states are all in the south by purposely showing the percentages instead of the actual numbers of people who are non-payers by states. So, the image is misleading the viewers with stats.
The reality is that non-payer issue cannot be pinned down to only GOP leaning states, but rather it's a nation-wide issue. By actual numbers, CA leads the all states with non-payers.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 19 2012 12:40 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:07 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 10:13 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 09:57 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 09:50 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 06:13 MinusPlus wrote:On September 19 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote: ... I think that a little much is being made of the significance of the 47% comments. Was it helpful? Of course not. Is it harmful? Possibly at the margins, and probably only short term. Hopefully Romney will use this as an opportunity to take the gloves off and throw out some meaty policy for people to chew on. ...
By whom? I mean...the GOP kinda built their whole convention around "You didn't build that," so calling 47% of the nation entitled, victimized dependents not worth pandering to seems significant (relatively). And that's taken in context, on video, and using the same wording. On September 19 2012 05:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:On September 19 2012 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On September 19 2012 05:53 Wolvmatt. wrote:On September 19 2012 05:47 Gorsameth wrote: How can anyone running for President say that almost half of the people in the country that he wants to lead are insignificant. Im sorry but i think a president should do more then cater to the 50.1% that voted for him. You can't give everybody everything. Ofcourse you can't but there is a different between trying to do the best for everyone and flat out dismissing 47% of your country as useless bags of meat. That's not what he did. He said it's a waste to fight for the vote of people who are already decided. How do you read that as "half the country is insignificant"? Come on people, do you think Obama is fighting for the Tea Party vote? Should he? Does that mean he dismisses them as insignificant citizens? This stuff is very basic. This reminded me. I realize the Non-Payers by State image was posted earlier, but no one juxtaposed that one with polling data by state, which had been my first thought after seeing it. So, in case anyone reading wasn't already acutely aware, here's how we supposedly stand today. ( source) ![[image loading]](http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/20100524-229-nonpayers-map-.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Pngs/Sep18.png) The interesting thing about what Romney said is that he didn't just say that 47% of Americans will vote for Obama no matter what -- it's that he also insulted a significant portion of his own base. Or maybe they aren't significant. I never know what's going to come out of this Romney guy next. (Sorry for old news & large images) LOL at that image of non-payers. That's the prime example of misleading the viewers with stats. I hope you guys are smarter than that. More rural country people are on welfare than urban dwellers. Fact of the matter is, cities pay more taxes than the countryside, and receive fewer subsidies. This is not new, or revolutionary, it's been true for decades. Jobs are in the cities, not in the countryside. Yes you can find a higher CONCENTRATION of poor people in cities. But only because there's a higher concentration of people in general. Generally the more rural the population, the more people reliant on government handouts. But being more diffuse, the poverty is more hidden. Ever bothered to consider why the image is showing a "percentage" of total population per state instead of actual numbers of non-payers? The fact is that non-payer issue is not restricted to southern states, but rather it's a nation-wide problem. The image is just trying to mislead the viewers that the problem mostly resides in GOP leaning states (oh, and I just love how it's supposed to show "top 10" non-payers states). It doesn't show just top 10 & bottom 10. It only highlights them. It lists the percentages and rank of out 50 states for every single state. Of course there are poor people in every state... alternatively in both urban and rural settings. As I stated in my post. I take from your tone you disagree with me, but the bare facts of your statement aligns with what I said. Complaining about one single chart is not going to change the reality on the ground. And that is that urban centers generally subsidize rural areas. Leaving states totally aside for the moment, rural areas tend to be more republican-leaning and urban areas more democratic-leaning. Now we can't tell for sure that it also follows that people receiving government assistance are more likely to vote Republican, while people paying taxes are more likely to vote Democratic, the statistics (and no, I'm not talking about that chart) aren't that detailed. Frankly there are large groups of both poor and well-off that vote both reliably Democratic and reliably Republican. Anyway you look at it though, Mitt Romney is pretty wrong in his understanding of the situation. It is clear that at the very least there are millions of people receiving government assistance that vote Republican. Old people, for example. My point was that the image is being used against the southern states; it is implying that leading non-payers states are all in the south by purposely showing the percentages instead of the actual numbers of people who are non-payers by states. So, the image is misleading the viewers with stats. The reality is that non-payer issue cannot be pinned down to only GOP leaning states, but rather it's a nation-wide issue. By actual numbers, CA leads the all states with non-payers.
You don't even need those maps to call out Romney on his bullshit. His claim has already been debunked several times throughout the past several pages.
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On September 19 2012 12:40 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:07 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 10:13 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 09:57 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 09:50 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 06:13 MinusPlus wrote:On September 19 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote: ... I think that a little much is being made of the significance of the 47% comments. Was it helpful? Of course not. Is it harmful? Possibly at the margins, and probably only short term. Hopefully Romney will use this as an opportunity to take the gloves off and throw out some meaty policy for people to chew on. ...
By whom? I mean...the GOP kinda built their whole convention around "You didn't build that," so calling 47% of the nation entitled, victimized dependents not worth pandering to seems significant (relatively). And that's taken in context, on video, and using the same wording. On September 19 2012 05:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:On September 19 2012 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On September 19 2012 05:53 Wolvmatt. wrote:On September 19 2012 05:47 Gorsameth wrote: How can anyone running for President say that almost half of the people in the country that he wants to lead are insignificant. Im sorry but i think a president should do more then cater to the 50.1% that voted for him. You can't give everybody everything. Ofcourse you can't but there is a different between trying to do the best for everyone and flat out dismissing 47% of your country as useless bags of meat. That's not what he did. He said it's a waste to fight for the vote of people who are already decided. How do you read that as "half the country is insignificant"? Come on people, do you think Obama is fighting for the Tea Party vote? Should he? Does that mean he dismisses them as insignificant citizens? This stuff is very basic. This reminded me. I realize the Non-Payers by State image was posted earlier, but no one juxtaposed that one with polling data by state, which had been my first thought after seeing it. So, in case anyone reading wasn't already acutely aware, here's how we supposedly stand today. ( source) ![[image loading]](http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/20100524-229-nonpayers-map-.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Pngs/Sep18.png) The interesting thing about what Romney said is that he didn't just say that 47% of Americans will vote for Obama no matter what -- it's that he also insulted a significant portion of his own base. Or maybe they aren't significant. I never know what's going to come out of this Romney guy next. (Sorry for old news & large images) LOL at that image of non-payers. That's the prime example of misleading the viewers with stats. I hope you guys are smarter than that. More rural country people are on welfare than urban dwellers. Fact of the matter is, cities pay more taxes than the countryside, and receive fewer subsidies. This is not new, or revolutionary, it's been true for decades. Jobs are in the cities, not in the countryside. Yes you can find a higher CONCENTRATION of poor people in cities. But only because there's a higher concentration of people in general. Generally the more rural the population, the more people reliant on government handouts. But being more diffuse, the poverty is more hidden. Ever bothered to consider why the image is showing a "percentage" of total population per state instead of actual numbers of non-payers? The fact is that non-payer issue is not restricted to southern states, but rather it's a nation-wide problem. The image is just trying to mislead the viewers that the problem mostly resides in GOP leaning states (oh, and I just love how it's supposed to show "top 10" non-payers states). It doesn't show just top 10 & bottom 10. It only highlights them. It lists the percentages and rank of out 50 states for every single state. Of course there are poor people in every state... alternatively in both urban and rural settings. As I stated in my post. I take from your tone you disagree with me, but the bare facts of your statement aligns with what I said. Complaining about one single chart is not going to change the reality on the ground. And that is that urban centers generally subsidize rural areas. Leaving states totally aside for the moment, rural areas tend to be more republican-leaning and urban areas more democratic-leaning. Now we can't tell for sure that it also follows that people receiving government assistance are more likely to vote Republican, while people paying taxes are more likely to vote Democratic, the statistics (and no, I'm not talking about that chart) aren't that detailed. Frankly there are large groups of both poor and well-off that vote both reliably Democratic and reliably Republican. Anyway you look at it though, Mitt Romney is pretty wrong in his understanding of the situation. It is clear that at the very least there are millions of people receiving government assistance that vote Republican. Old people, for example. My point was that the image is being used against the southern states; it is implying that leading non-payers states are all in the south by purposely showing the percentages instead of the actual numbers of people who are non-payers by states. So, the image is misleading the viewers with stats. The reality is that non-payer issue cannot be pinned down to only GOP leaning states, but rather it's a nation-wide issue. By actual numbers, CA leads the all states with non-payers.
Okay? But that also means that they have more payers paying in to it without receiving anything as well, simply cause their population is bigger. So that's why you use proportions.
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On September 19 2012 12:02 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 19 2012 11:23 kwizach wrote:On September 19 2012 10:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 19 2012 10:19 kwizach wrote:On September 19 2012 09:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 19 2012 08:27 biology]major wrote:On September 19 2012 08:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 19 2012 07:50 rogzardo wrote:On September 19 2012 07:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: [quote] Why not? Businesses can increase their demand by lowering prices / stealing market share. Lower taxes create an incentive for them to do more of that. Trust the rich. They will take care of you. Trickle down economics has been proven to be effective. This is why our current economic state is so positive. This is why the wealth gap between the poor and the rich is at the lowest its ever been. If only we allow the rich to expand our economy, and pay less taxes than those who will one day work in a job created by the rich, poverty will be nothing but a distant memory. This isn't trickle down economics. This is how a market economy is supposed to function. When profits go up competition should increase and push profits back down. We aren't currently seeing that and there's no one "there it is!" problem and solution. A reasonable diagnosis of the problem is that businesses do not see current profits as sustainable and / or see uncertainty as too great a factor. Lowering taxes would then help remedy that. If you disagree, fine, but please offer some logic behind your disagreement. Businesses are willing to expand and hire more workers when they see opportunity for growth, i.e., more products to sell. Cutting taxes is simply a false growth for business - they didn't sell more products or necessarily make more of their goods, they simply got more money off of what they're already doing. You basically made status quo practices more profitable. So you just gave them some extra cash which won't go into investment, because opportunity and demand didn't change. Businesses have plenty of opportunities to grow. Most only have a tiny fraction of market share - for an individual business there's tons and tons of demand out there to be had. No there isn't. Economists from across the board have argued that one of the most important problems right now is a lack of consumer demand. In fact, in a survey published in February of this year, small business owners pointed to "weak consumer demand" as the most important problem they were facing - and by far. Businesses can create demand. They can lower prices or change the products / services they offer. Ex. 1 Apple has the products people want and sees plenty of demand. Ex. 2 Nat gas prices have fallen very low and that has spurred new demand. I wonder why small business owners did not think of magically solving the weak demand problem by selling something else or lowering their prices. Hmm... Because its not "magic" - changing your product and service offerings isn't cheap and isn't easy. Cutting prices carries risk of a profit destroying price war. Some will pull it off and succeed and others will either follow or stagnate / die. I was being sarcastic to point out that your "solution" to weak consumer demand isn't a real solution at all. Yeah, because we all know that putting an item on sale to increase business is just 'crazy talk.'
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On September 19 2012 11:13 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 10:51 Kaitlin wrote: So, if Obama wins re-election, and the Republicans retain control of the House, what will happen over the next 4 years ? Does anyone think that Obama will give in to the Republicans or that the House Republicans will give in to him ? The only time I can remember of a compromise between them was the extension of the Bush Tax Cuts. They couldn't even compromise on the debt ceiling extension without blowing everything up with the looming cuts. I don't know. Obama wins it takes a lot of the steam out of the republicans. I mean they can't run on "we will not let Obama have a second term" anymore. They definitely could completely wipe out their strategy. That could lead to more compromise, and possibly moderate the republican party. It's hard to say. I feel like the Republicans want to go even more right-wing than they currently are but all the demographics and popular support are telling them to go the other direction.
I think Republicans will have to make an effort to cooperate with the administration, if only to position their party better in 2016.
This election year they have almost no landmark legislation or accomplishments to point to -- I mean, successfully blocking a Jobs Bill or debt reduction plan aren't exactly 'achievements'.
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On September 19 2012 10:02 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 10:01 rogzardo wrote: It's too bad that this guy figured out the copy/paste function. It's too bad that you can't challenge me on any one of the broken promises.
Let's look at the Republican Congress' accomplishments. Heres a list:
*crickets*
Let's look at Romney's accomplishments the past four years:
*oh yeah, he's been retired the past five years*
It's amazing how many nimrods think that the president's job is to be a genie that can just will problems away or rewrite policies with their mind.
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Dark days for the Romney campaign.
A Mood of Gloom Afflicts the Romney Campaign By MICHAEL BARBARO 8:42 p.m. | Updated SALT LAKE CITY – Mitt Romney’s traveling press secretary walked to the back of the candidate’s plane midflight on Tuesday and teasingly asked a pair of journalists in an exit row if they were “willing and able to assist in case of an emergency.”
Under the circumstances, it was hard to tell whether it was a question or a request.
A palpably gloomy and openly frustrated mood has begun to creep into Mr. Romney’s campaign for president. Well practiced in the art of lurching from public relations crisis to public relations crisis, his team seemed to reach its limit as it digested a ubiquitous set of video clips that showed their boss candidly describing nearly half of the country’s population as government-dependent “victims,” and saying that he would “kick the ball down the road” on the biggest foreign policy challenge of the past few decades, the Palestinian-Israeli peace process.
Grim-faced aides acknowledged that it was an unusually dark moment, made worse by the self-inflicted, seemingly avoidable nature of the wound. In low-volume, out-of-the-way conversations, a few of them are now wondering whether victory is still possible and whether they are entering McCain-Palin ticket territory.
It may prove a fleeting anxiety: national polls show the race remains close, even though Mr. Romney trails in some key swing states.
Still, a flustered adviser, describing the mood, said that the campaign was turning into a vulgar, unprintable phrase.
Aides did little to hide their annoyance: on Monday night, a Romney aide cursed loudly as he tried to corral reporters into an impromptu news conference in Costa Mesa, Calif.
Mr. Romney himself seemed pensive on the early-morning flight Tuesday from California to Utah, sitting alone with a white legal pad and a pen as he picked at a vegetarian breakfast burrito. An aide said that he had eaten dinner alone in his hotel room the night before as the video controversy began to unfold.
The campaign did its best to change the subject. At an airport in Salt Lake City, Kevin Madden, a senior adviser, waved a group of reporters over to look at his iPhone. It displayed a headline in the Romney-friendly Drudge Report about a poll that showed the presidential race tightening.
A few hours later, Mr. Romney’s staff members summoned a handful of reporters to watch him carry four of his young grandchildren across a tarmac here and onto his plane for a tour.
But the video kept coming up anyway. When pressed, Mr. Madden offered a relentlessly on-message reply to questions about the candidate’s mood and reaction to the drip-drip-drip release of the fund-raiser video by Mother Jones magazine.
“We’re still focused,” he said. “This is an election that is focused on the economy. It’s focused on the direction of the country.”
Mr. Madden wanted to be clear: despite the video, Mr. Romney was focused, a word he used eight times. “We remain pretty focused and determined,” he said, before opting for a stronger adjective. “Very focused and determined,” he said.
The campaign did its best to blunt the onslaught, starting on Monday afternoon.
Around 4 p.m., Garrett Jackson, Mr. Romney’s closest aide, showed the candidate the grainy video from the fund-raiser on an iPad during a car ride.
It was a buzz kill: Mr. Romney had just finished his inaugural intelligence briefing at a local F.B.I. building, a ritual reserved for those just inches from the presidency.
The next minute, he was watching himself deliver those words – about the “47 percent” and “dependents” – to a group of wealthy campaign donors in Florida.
Mr. Romney and his advisers quickly grasped the severity of the video. A decision was made: Mr. Romney must go in front of cameras immediately to explain himself, lest questions about the video linger and overshadow two full days of his campaign at a crucial stage in the general election.
By Tuesday afternoon, the campaign seemed to find its footing. Aides inside Mr. Romney’s Boston headquarters began highlighting a video of their own: a 1998 clip showing Barack Obama, then a state senator, saying that he wanted the government to facilitate the distribution of wealth. “I actually believe in redistribution,” Mr. Obama said on the tape.
Soon, Mr. Romney was on Fox News, his television comfort zone, mocking the video. Twitter lit up with Romney aides taking the president to task for his word choice.
Suddenly, the mood in the Romney camp began to perk up, ever so slightly.
As the campaign plane landed in Dallas on Tuesday night, Mr. Romney got on the intercom to welcome home two reporters whose families live in Texas, one from CNN, the other from NBC News. He said he was sorry to miss a planned pool party that one of the reporters planned to hold In the evening. “I was a little offended not to be invited for cobbler,” he said, playfully. He asked that some be brought to him on Wednesday.
When you have to go back 14 years ago to find any scrap of footage to make yourself look less offensive ... you're in trouble.
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On September 19 2012 12:40 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 11:07 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 10:13 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 09:57 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 09:50 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 06:13 MinusPlus wrote:On September 19 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote: ... I think that a little much is being made of the significance of the 47% comments. Was it helpful? Of course not. Is it harmful? Possibly at the margins, and probably only short term. Hopefully Romney will use this as an opportunity to take the gloves off and throw out some meaty policy for people to chew on. ...
By whom? I mean...the GOP kinda built their whole convention around "You didn't build that," so calling 47% of the nation entitled, victimized dependents not worth pandering to seems significant (relatively). And that's taken in context, on video, and using the same wording. On September 19 2012 05:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:On September 19 2012 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On September 19 2012 05:53 Wolvmatt. wrote:On September 19 2012 05:47 Gorsameth wrote: How can anyone running for President say that almost half of the people in the country that he wants to lead are insignificant. Im sorry but i think a president should do more then cater to the 50.1% that voted for him. You can't give everybody everything. Ofcourse you can't but there is a different between trying to do the best for everyone and flat out dismissing 47% of your country as useless bags of meat. That's not what he did. He said it's a waste to fight for the vote of people who are already decided. How do you read that as "half the country is insignificant"? Come on people, do you think Obama is fighting for the Tea Party vote? Should he? Does that mean he dismisses them as insignificant citizens? This stuff is very basic. This reminded me. I realize the Non-Payers by State image was posted earlier, but no one juxtaposed that one with polling data by state, which had been my first thought after seeing it. So, in case anyone reading wasn't already acutely aware, here's how we supposedly stand today. ( source) ![[image loading]](http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/20100524-229-nonpayers-map-.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Pngs/Sep18.png) The interesting thing about what Romney said is that he didn't just say that 47% of Americans will vote for Obama no matter what -- it's that he also insulted a significant portion of his own base. Or maybe they aren't significant. I never know what's going to come out of this Romney guy next. (Sorry for old news & large images) LOL at that image of non-payers. That's the prime example of misleading the viewers with stats. I hope you guys are smarter than that. More rural country people are on welfare than urban dwellers. Fact of the matter is, cities pay more taxes than the countryside, and receive fewer subsidies. This is not new, or revolutionary, it's been true for decades. Jobs are in the cities, not in the countryside. Yes you can find a higher CONCENTRATION of poor people in cities. But only because there's a higher concentration of people in general. Generally the more rural the population, the more people reliant on government handouts. But being more diffuse, the poverty is more hidden. Ever bothered to consider why the image is showing a "percentage" of total population per state instead of actual numbers of non-payers? The fact is that non-payer issue is not restricted to southern states, but rather it's a nation-wide problem. The image is just trying to mislead the viewers that the problem mostly resides in GOP leaning states (oh, and I just love how it's supposed to show "top 10" non-payers states). It doesn't show just top 10 & bottom 10. It only highlights them. It lists the percentages and rank of out 50 states for every single state. Of course there are poor people in every state... alternatively in both urban and rural settings. As I stated in my post. I take from your tone you disagree with me, but the bare facts of your statement aligns with what I said. Complaining about one single chart is not going to change the reality on the ground. And that is that urban centers generally subsidize rural areas. Leaving states totally aside for the moment, rural areas tend to be more republican-leaning and urban areas more democratic-leaning. Now we can't tell for sure that it also follows that people receiving government assistance are more likely to vote Republican, while people paying taxes are more likely to vote Democratic, the statistics (and no, I'm not talking about that chart) aren't that detailed. Frankly there are large groups of both poor and well-off that vote both reliably Democratic and reliably Republican. Anyway you look at it though, Mitt Romney is pretty wrong in his understanding of the situation. It is clear that at the very least there are millions of people receiving government assistance that vote Republican. Old people, for example. My point was that the image is being used against the southern states; it is implying that leading non-payers states are all in the south by purposely showing the percentages instead of the actual numbers of people who are non-payers by states. So, the image is misleading the viewers with stats. The reality is that non-payer issue cannot be pinned down to only GOP leaning states, but rather it's a nation-wide issue. By actual numbers, CA leads the all states with non-payers.
Now who's being misleading? CA also leads all the states in tax-payers. CA leads all the states in basically every measure of total population. Whoopty-doo.
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Okay, so what DOES count as an unbiased source? Breitbart.com certainly doesn't. -__-"
So as of now: Promise Kept 190 (37%) Compromise 72 (14%) Promise Broken 84 (17%) Stalled 49 (10%) In the Works 111 (22%) Not yet rated 2 (0%)
37% kept, 22% in the works, 14% compromise. That's 73% of promises addressed. Pretty good for a guy with a job who has so much less power than we give him credit for. (I mean yes the President is "the most powerful man in the world", but there's precious little he can shove through into law with a very stubborn bloc of Republicans.)
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Scott Brown throws Romney under the bus. Good for him.
One of the first Democrats to knock Mitt Romney for his charge that 47 percent of Americans are "dependent" on the federal government was Massachusetts Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren, who told the Washington Post's Greg Sargent, "Romney just wrote off half the people in Massachusetts and half the people in America as deadbeats." Now Warren's Republican opponent, Sen. Scott Brown, has followed suit. Here's the statement he sent to The Hill on Tuesday:
"That's not the way I view the world. As someone who grew up in tough circumstances, I know that being on public assistance is not a spot that anyone wants to be in. Too many people today who want to work are being forced into public assistance for lack of jobs."
Brown's not the only Republican to back away from the remarks of the party's presidential nominee. Former wrestling executive Linda McMahon, who is running for Senate in Connecticut, said in a statement Tuesday that "I disagree with Gov. Romney's insinuation that 47 percent of Americans believe they are victims who must depend on the government for their care."
What makes Brown comments particularly noteworthy, though, is that he and Romney are both being advised by the same guy—GOP strategist Eric Fehrnstrom. (This isn't the first time Fehrstrom's candidates have been put in an awkward situation.)
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 19 2012 14:10 ticklishmusic wrote: Okay, so what DOES count as an unbiased source? Breitbart.com certainly doesn't. -__-"
If imbalance implies bias then there's no such thing as an unbiased source, since a balanced source is biased in favor of Republicans for not making them look as bad as they actually are.
I hope people can see the nuance between imbalance and bias.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
interesting that romney is turning a rather straightforward phenomenon of globalization (pursuing cheaper labor cost with more mobile capital thus displacing more expensive american workers) which he himself was a participant into a moral drama of the (mormon) biblical variety.
taking bets as to whether he's actually serious because there is actually a chance he believes in all this
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On September 19 2012 14:02 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 12:40 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 11:07 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 10:13 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 09:57 MisterFred wrote:On September 19 2012 09:50 jellyjello wrote:On September 19 2012 06:13 MinusPlus wrote:On September 19 2012 05:19 xDaunt wrote: ... I think that a little much is being made of the significance of the 47% comments. Was it helpful? Of course not. Is it harmful? Possibly at the margins, and probably only short term. Hopefully Romney will use this as an opportunity to take the gloves off and throw out some meaty policy for people to chew on. ...
By whom? I mean...the GOP kinda built their whole convention around "You didn't build that," so calling 47% of the nation entitled, victimized dependents not worth pandering to seems significant (relatively). And that's taken in context, on video, and using the same wording. On September 19 2012 05:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:On September 19 2012 05:57 Gorsameth wrote:On September 19 2012 05:53 Wolvmatt. wrote: [quote]
You can't give everybody everything. Ofcourse you can't but there is a different between trying to do the best for everyone and flat out dismissing 47% of your country as useless bags of meat. That's not what he did. He said it's a waste to fight for the vote of people who are already decided. How do you read that as "half the country is insignificant"? Come on people, do you think Obama is fighting for the Tea Party vote? Should he? Does that mean he dismisses them as insignificant citizens? This stuff is very basic. This reminded me. I realize the Non-Payers by State image was posted earlier, but no one juxtaposed that one with polling data by state, which had been my first thought after seeing it. So, in case anyone reading wasn't already acutely aware, here's how we supposedly stand today. ( source) ![[image loading]](http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/20100524-229-nonpayers-map-.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Pngs/Sep18.png) The interesting thing about what Romney said is that he didn't just say that 47% of Americans will vote for Obama no matter what -- it's that he also insulted a significant portion of his own base. Or maybe they aren't significant. I never know what's going to come out of this Romney guy next. (Sorry for old news & large images) LOL at that image of non-payers. That's the prime example of misleading the viewers with stats. I hope you guys are smarter than that. More rural country people are on welfare than urban dwellers. Fact of the matter is, cities pay more taxes than the countryside, and receive fewer subsidies. This is not new, or revolutionary, it's been true for decades. Jobs are in the cities, not in the countryside. Yes you can find a higher CONCENTRATION of poor people in cities. But only because there's a higher concentration of people in general. Generally the more rural the population, the more people reliant on government handouts. But being more diffuse, the poverty is more hidden. Ever bothered to consider why the image is showing a "percentage" of total population per state instead of actual numbers of non-payers? The fact is that non-payer issue is not restricted to southern states, but rather it's a nation-wide problem. The image is just trying to mislead the viewers that the problem mostly resides in GOP leaning states (oh, and I just love how it's supposed to show "top 10" non-payers states). It doesn't show just top 10 & bottom 10. It only highlights them. It lists the percentages and rank of out 50 states for every single state. Of course there are poor people in every state... alternatively in both urban and rural settings. As I stated in my post. I take from your tone you disagree with me, but the bare facts of your statement aligns with what I said. Complaining about one single chart is not going to change the reality on the ground. And that is that urban centers generally subsidize rural areas. Leaving states totally aside for the moment, rural areas tend to be more republican-leaning and urban areas more democratic-leaning. Now we can't tell for sure that it also follows that people receiving government assistance are more likely to vote Republican, while people paying taxes are more likely to vote Democratic, the statistics (and no, I'm not talking about that chart) aren't that detailed. Frankly there are large groups of both poor and well-off that vote both reliably Democratic and reliably Republican. Anyway you look at it though, Mitt Romney is pretty wrong in his understanding of the situation. It is clear that at the very least there are millions of people receiving government assistance that vote Republican. Old people, for example. My point was that the image is being used against the southern states; it is implying that leading non-payers states are all in the south by purposely showing the percentages instead of the actual numbers of people who are non-payers by states. So, the image is misleading the viewers with stats. The reality is that non-payer issue cannot be pinned down to only GOP leaning states, but rather it's a nation-wide issue. By actual numbers, CA leads the all states with non-payers. Now who's being misleading? CA also leads all the states in tax-payers. CA leads all the states in basically every measure of total population. Whoopty-doo.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank those residents of California who are paying a disproportionately higher % of their buying power in taxes, since the cost of living is so high in that State, your corresponding higher income is taxed harder than those of us in the so-called "flyover" portion of the country. Also, because California is such a paradise, people flock to the beautiful weather and government programs, so the cost of living and state and local, and property taxes are also through the roof. Thanks.
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On September 19 2012 14:28 oneofthem wrote: interesting that romney is turning a rather straightforward phenomenon of globalization (pursuing cheaper labor cost with more mobile capital thus displacing more expensive american workers) which he himself was a participant into a moral drama of the (mormon) biblical variety.
taking bets as to whether he's actually serious because there is actually a chance he believes in all this
Is it immoral to employ people from other countries, who are in much more dire living conditions than in the U.S. ?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 19 2012 14:20 Defacer wrote:Scott Brown throws Romney under the bus. Good for him. Show nested quote +One of the first Democrats to knock Mitt Romney for his charge that 47 percent of Americans are "dependent" on the federal government was Massachusetts Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren, who told the Washington Post's Greg Sargent, "Romney just wrote off half the people in Massachusetts and half the people in America as deadbeats." Now Warren's Republican opponent, Sen. Scott Brown, has followed suit. Here's the statement he sent to The Hill on Tuesday:
"That's not the way I view the world. As someone who grew up in tough circumstances, I know that being on public assistance is not a spot that anyone wants to be in. Too many people today who want to work are being forced into public assistance for lack of jobs."
Brown's not the only Republican to back away from the remarks of the party's presidential nominee. Former wrestling executive Linda McMahon, who is running for Senate in Connecticut, said in a statement Tuesday that "I disagree with Gov. Romney's insinuation that 47 percent of Americans believe they are victims who must depend on the government for their care."
What makes Brown comments particularly noteworthy, though, is that he and Romney are both being advised by the same guy—GOP strategist Eric Fehrnstrom. (This isn't the first time Fehrstrom's candidates have been put in an awkward situation.)
I actually agree with xDaunt about this whole video catastrophe. It will merely be but a faint memory after the debates are done and over with. If Romney somehow comes out on top in the debates, his better days will be ahead of him. Let's also not forget how volatile the Middle East is.
In the meantime, however, it is a great dose of justice porn.
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On September 19 2012 10:01 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 09:59 aksfjh wrote:On September 19 2012 09:46 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:37 aksfjh wrote:On September 19 2012 09:28 sevencck wrote:On September 19 2012 09:21 kmillz wrote:On September 19 2012 09:10 sevencck wrote:I think Mitt has officially thrown away any chance of winning this election, I'd be utterly amazed if he could come back at this point. Between the Palestiniains not wanting peace comment, the economy improving if he's elected even before he's had a chance to do anything comments, the 47% comments, and this latest gem. http://www.upworthy.com/mitt-romney-accidentally-confronts-a-gay-veteran-awesomeness-ensuesIt's just becoming a PR nightmare at this point, and overshadowing any legit points he might have. Edit: the video is dated 2011, but seems to be getting circulating recently, I hadn't seen it before. He already has come back, its a 1% election right now according to gallup (the most accurate poll with a 2% margin of error, predicted the most elected presidents of any poll). That video was leaked weeks ago. It resulted in nothing. So no, he hasn't thrown anything away. You're implying that the majority of people have been exposed to the 47% comments and the country has had a chance to digest them already. You're implying this won't snowball away from Mitt. He said 47% of Americans will back Obama no matter what and “my job is not to worry about those people.” (among saying other things) The election is more than a month away, the U.S. public will have alot of time to reflect on those comments. It will likely just solidify Obama's support, push those who were on the fence toward Obama, and push many Republicans toward the independent. It's more that it will dissuade Republicans from voting. Really? It hasn't dissuaded me and I'm Independent. That video does not convince me that Obama is the right choice for America, as such, I will still cast my vote for the most likely candidate to dethrone him, and you are foolishly ignorant if you think most people will suddenly get a change of heart and vote Obama from that video or NOT vote for the guy to unseat him. Yea, you're independent. And I thought Paul Ryan was a liar. You challenge my political stance? I am a libertarian, the OPPOSITE of a socialist. I want LESS government. LESS taxes. LESS involvement in things the government has NO BUSINESS in. The opposite of Obama is Ron Paul, not Mitt Romney, I think Mitt Romney is very similar to Obama in MANY ways, but is still a far more appealing choice than Obama is. If you think Paul Ryan is a liar, than why don't you tell me what you think of my list of BROKEN PROMISES by OBAMA the LIAR OF THE YEAR in my book.
To the bold part; it's hard to take you seriously when you completely fail to understand what Socialism is. You make a (fairly) true statement in saying that Socialism is opposed to Libertarianism, but then you suggest that Obama is a Socialist, which is factually incorrect and incredibly ignorant.
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