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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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madsweepslol
161 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote: To be fair, I don't think Obama's put out any meaty plans of his own. If he has, let me know - I'd love to know what he'd do with another 4 years. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/06/comparing-romneys-and-obamas-jobs-plans/ | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:34 jdseemoreglass wrote: I understand why Democrats would be upset about it, obviously. Which explains I guess why the media would be upset. But I don't see anything wrong with the quote. He's talking some very, very basic political strategy that has been known and used for a long time. "Some people will vote for Obama no matter what I do or say so there's no point fighting for that vote." It's been common practice for decades for people to pander to the base during nomination, and then to pander to the center moderates and swing voters during the election. Is it the entitlement statement? But people do think they are entitled to have all those things given to them, and those people don't vote Republican. I honestly don't see the big deal. Incorrectly attributing the 47% of the country that is dependent on government aid as every single Democrat in the country, give or take, is not talking basic political strategy. It is delusional fantasy. If I was an independent I would not vote for a candidate who incorrectly believes everyone who is receiving more than they put in is against him, let alone someone who believes every Obama supporter sees themselves as a victim. Seriously, can you guys not see how deep you're playing into bizarre Romney twists of logic here? It's one thing to be skeptical of the MSM, it's another believe the pretzel rhetoric of a candidate trying to cover his behind and not even admitting he made a mistake, exactly like the situation with the embassy comments being falsely attributed to being from the Obama administration after the attacks. It's insane. Edit: I mean, Christie/Jeb Bush/Huntsman/any respectable Republican wouldn't be caught dead saying trash like this. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:34 jdseemoreglass wrote: I understand why Democrats would be upset about it, obviously. Which explains I guess why the media would be upset. But I don't see anything wrong with the quote. He's talking some very, very basic political strategy that has been known and used for a long time. "Some people will vote for Obama no matter what I do or say so there's no point fighting for that vote." It's been common practice for decades for people to pander to the base during nomination, and then to pander to the center moderates and swing voters during the election. Is it the entitlement statement? But people do think they are entitled to have all those things given to them, and those people don't vote Republican. I honestly don't see the big deal. Again, that is not all he is saying. There's a difference between saying 47% of the electorate will vote for Obama no matter what I do and actually saying that 47% of the electorate will vote for Obama because they have no sense of responsibility and are dependent on government. | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:15 kmillz wrote: I actually honestly believe that Obama doesn't care about anybody, just their votes. The same could be said about Romney to be honest, but unfortunately we are stuck between choosing between a Turd Sandwich and a Giant Douche. Almost asked you to label the relevant candidates for this election, but I think that's entrapment. | ||
KwarK
United States43536 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:34 jdseemoreglass wrote: I understand why Democrats would be upset about it, obviously. Which explains I guess why the media would be upset. But I don't see anything wrong with the quote. He's talking some very, very basic political strategy that has been known and used for a long time. "Some people will vote for Obama no matter what I do or say so there's no point fighting for that vote." It's been common practice for decades for people to pander to the base during nomination, and then to pander to the center moderates and swing voters during the election. Is it the entitlement statement? But people do think they are entitled to have all those things given to them, and those people don't vote Republican. I honestly don't see the big deal. Firstly, the president needs to govern for the whole country, not just the people who voted for him. That doesn't mean he should appeal to everyone but he shouldn't openly say "fuck those guys, they're leeches". Secondly, writing off Obama supporters as just being entitled losers who want what their betters have degrades the entire quality of the debate and insults the integrity of people who believe the government should be involved for ideological reasons. If the Democrats start saying every Republican supporter just wants to exploit the workers to buy endlessly larger yachts and the Republicans start saying the Democrats just want to steal their yachts because they're lazy and jealous then the entire debate breaks down. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
I simply can't believe there is a single person in this Country who is: a) likely to vote, b) undecided between Obama and Romney, but will vote for one or the other, and c) not such a complete moron that they wouldn't get lost on the way to the ballot box in November. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:27 KwarK wrote: Firstly, the president needs to govern for the whole country, not just the people who voted for him. That doesn't mean he should appeal to everyone but he shouldn't openly say "fuck those guys, they're leeches". Secondly, writing off Obama supporters as just being entitled losers who want what their betters have degrades the entire quality of the debate and insults the integrity of people who believe the government should be involved for ideological reasons. If the Democrats start saying every Republican supporter just wants to exploit the workers to buy endlessly larger yachts and the Republicans start saying the Democrats just want to steal their yachts because they're lazy and jealous then the entire debate breaks down. He wasn't referring to how he would govern the Country, but how to apply a campaign strategy to win the election. On the second point, Liberals have been demonizing Republican voters for years. | ||
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madsweepslol
161 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:30 Kaitlin wrote: Has anyone located anyone who was going to vote for Romney before those comments, but has changed their vote to Obama as a result ? No. Undecided and possibly swayed by this gaffe, in context of the past few weeks of gaffes? Maybe. | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:30 Kaitlin wrote: Has anyone located anyone who was going to vote for Romney before those comments, but has changed their vote to Obama as a result ? As for the comments costing him a couple of news cycle days, who are we kidding. If it wasn't these comments (which he made back in May, by the way), there would be a negative story about some other aspect of his candidacy. I simply can't believe there is a single person in this Country who is: a) likely to vote, b) undecided between Obama and Romney, but will vote for one or the other, and c) not such a complete moron that they wouldn't get lost on the way to the ballot box in November. I know people who will vote Obama to vote against Romney because of things like this. But alas, several hours just isn't long enough for an informal poll of everyone in the state. But oh no, the god damned liberal media or some whatever your point was. EDIT: On September 19 2012 06:33 Kaitlin wrote: On the second point, Liberals have been demonizing Republican voters for years. lol, you. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:30 Kaitlin wrote: Has anyone located anyone who was going to vote for Romney before those comments, but has changed their vote to Obama as a result ? As for the comments costing him a couple of news cycle days, who are we kidding. If it wasn't these comments (which he made back in May, by the way), there would be a negative story about some other aspect of his candidacy. I simply can't believe there is a single person in this Country who is: a) likely to vote, b) undecided between Obama and Romney, but will vote for one or the other, and c) not such a complete moron that they wouldn't get lost on the way to the ballot box in November. I suspect the Jewish population that has been wavering between Obama and Romney has still not made up their minds, and I doubt any amount of support for Israel will get that community to support Romney if he continues to make bizarre statements and gaffes. They won't buy into the MSM response or his pretzel logic. This isn't quite the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's another bale of hay that's burdening his camel. Edit: On September 19 2012 06:33 Kaitlin wrote: He wasn't referring to how he would govern the Country, but how to apply a campaign strategy to win the election. On the second point, Liberals have been demonizing Republican voters for years. If you can find me a single quote from a Democrat that won an election that dismisses the entire Republican party as [insert negative property here] I will agree with this. Even the "guns and religion" line didn't insult half the country, maybe 20-30%. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
But as much as I don't like Romney I am not really comfortable that it's kinda (naturally) ok to instantly jump to what is being said in the video, which in all likelihood is and will be damaging, yet how it got obtained is a non issue. "Investigative journalism" can only go so far to be honest - and that's really stretching it quite a bit. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:23 MinusPlus wrote: Almost asked you to label the relevant candidates for this election, but I think that's entrapment. Obama, Romney, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson Eventually most of the people who really want someone besides Obama and Romney will end up voting for Obama or Romney because of the candidate they don't want to get elected  sadly I am on the fence and am actually still undecided between Romney and either Ron Paul/GaryJohnson (depending who from the third party has the most support, and depending on if they actually will ever get a chance) | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:30 Kaitlin wrote: Has anyone located anyone who was going to vote for Romney before those comments, but has changed their vote to Obama as a result ? As for the comments costing him a couple of news cycle days, who are we kidding. If it wasn't these comments (which he made back in May, by the way), there would be a negative story about some other aspect of his candidacy. I simply can't believe there is a single person in this Country who is: a) likely to vote, b) undecided between Obama and Romney, but will vote for one or the other, and c) not such a complete moron that they wouldn't get lost on the way to the ballot box in November. That's why all of these "gaffes" are hilarious tbh. Everybody's mind is already made up this time around. Romney may have mistaken who the 47% of guaranteed Obama voters are (personally I don't care if he said something like that, although if he believes it then it shows how little grasp he has on our country's fiscal situation), but he's absolutely right that 47% of voters had already decided they were voting for Obama, and probably another 47% for whomever the GOP candidate turned out to be, a year ago. At this point all either side can do is hope that the turnout is in their favor. Personally I think the Democrats have a slightly larger but less motivated base right now (complete with a lot of moderates who aren't too enthusiastic about either party), so we'll see how that turns out for them. | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:42 kmillz wrote: Obama, Romney, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson Eventually most of the people who really want someone besides Obama and Romney will end up voting for Obama or Romney because of the candidate they don't want to get elected sadly I am on the fence and am actually still undecided between Romney and either Ron Paul/GaryJohnson (depending who from the third party has the most support, and depending on if they actually will ever get a chance)Where do you live? If it's not a swing state vote 3rd party. I most likely will do this myself, since DC is completely noncompetitive. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:34 TheTenthDoc wrote: If you can find me a single quote from a Democrat that won an election that dismisses the entire Republican party as [insert negative property here] I will agree with this. I could probably offer numerous examples. Obviously it won't be as explicit as you want it to be. But the first comment that comes to mind is this one by Obama, quite obviously referring to many Republican voters: "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:44 jdseemoreglass wrote: I could probably offer numerous examples. Obviously it won't be as explicit as you want it to be. But the first comment that comes to mind is this one by Obama, quite obviously referring to many Republican voters: "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Well for one thing that's not the entire Republican party, that was small town individuals in rural America. For another, my point is that it isn't as explicit. You can't excuse direct demonization by saying the other party has been slighting you for years, that's nonsense. Edit: This is leaving aside that that statement expresses approximately ten million times as much empathy for the people being insulted as Romney's. Like, look at the whole statement: "You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. "And they fell through the Clinton administration and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not," he went on. "And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Also, please do find these "numerous examples" that are as explicit. I'm interested. | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:44 jdseemoreglass wrote: I could probably offer numerous examples. Obviously it won't be as explicit as you want it to be. But the first comment that comes to mind is this one by Obama, quite obviously referring to many Republican voters: "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Obama probably did permanently lose a lot of voters from that remark. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
"Running for president in the YouTube era, you realize you have to be very judicious in what you say. You have to be careful with your humor. You have to recognize that anytime you’re running for the presidency of the United States, you’re on," - Mitt Romney, in a 2007 interview. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:34 TheTenthDoc wrote: I suspect the Jewish population that has been wavering between Obama and Romney has still not made up their minds, and I doubt any amount of support for Israel will get that community to support Romney if he continues to make bizarre statements and gaffes. They won't buy into the MSM response or his pretzel logic. This isn't quite the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's another bale of hay that's burdening his camel. I'm not Jewish, so I don't have any inside thoughts on why they vote how they do, but I would think what happens in the next couple months with Israel, with Obama's "leadership" would have more effect than Romney's comments. Besides, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and the Jewish stereotype is not one of being a group of leechers, so I'm not sure they care so much, let alone even disagree. I think at this point, it's safe to say that either Romney or Obama could run around naked for the next week, and polls wouldn't shift more than 2%. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:48 HunterX11 wrote: Obama probably did permanently lose a lot of voters from that remark. And despite how people like to explain it away, "You didn't build that" hurt him as well. | ||
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