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On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:13 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
This reads that the intent of the article is to compare the policies that originated under Bush to the policies that originated under Obama. The last line of the paragraph sums up the conclusion of the article. No where does it say that they are restricting their analysis to just big individual policies. What do you think holds more "responsibility for the deficits", new policies that cost a lot or new policies that don't cost a lot? Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010. New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B. Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins?
E.g. social security will cost more as more baby boomers retire. Unemployment benefits will cost more as unemployment increases.
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I dont understand why some of the best dialogue on political matters is limited to 5 mins a day 4 days a week. Both Jon and Rubio did very well presenting their points without resorting (for the most part) to hyperbole. Seems like Americans would rather be force fed agendas from other "news" stations ( im looking at you FOX and MSNBC).
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Well at least it's getting out somewhere. I mean it is a comedy show, but still. Make it about competing visions. Is the government a good spender of money ... is it doing good or harm with it? Is this government's role, when these venture capitalists fail (or are alleged to be failing) that it is government's job to put up the money by impoverishing everybody just a little bit? It's like damn ... you can find Rubio's train of thought through all the obstacles thrown out there by Stewart. Hey man, I think government would do a better job here ... I think corporations need this there ... I think Dodd-Frank was on to something in this part. Talking about proper roles for government taken from a guy that knows every argument that has been thrown at free market capitalism to see if it would stick.
Now compare that to the collective "meh" on the final take on Romney's speech. Not that it's comparable, just something on my mind right now. Here we have unapologetic defense of government as a lawmaker and not a spender and you can get your base whoopin and hollerin. Romney gave real pretty talk but I couldn't walk back after hearing it and remember a darn thing that he said. Just rode off whatever energy was present for immigrant stories and a defense of American exceptionalism. So he missed a shot there. Left Eastwood to take some humor and recognizable memories home. And thank God for him.
It's kinda got me wishing ... let's talk about how the candidates fielded questions in the debates already, because it's fated to overshadow the conventions and even more so this year's conventions for me.
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How is Obama up to nearly 58% on Intrade's mathematical equations? I gambled on 53% in favor towards Obama not being the lowest margin of the year and I utterly failed.
The margins will probably shrink almost to that extent towards election time but probably not below it. Oh well 
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I could watch this stuff all day. Thanks for linking them, Defacer.
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On September 01 2012 12:04 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:32 radiatoren wrote:On September 01 2012 09:11 naastyOne wrote:On September 01 2012 09:03 Defacer wrote:On September 01 2012 08:45 Romantic wrote:
Edit: Ironically, bombing them to end the program might be the exact political spark they need to justify building nuclear weapons for self defense. It's very important that the US preserves and protects it's moral authority, in the event that a war against Iran is necessary. A war against Iran would be very costly, and would likely spread. Part of retaining this moral authority is exploring every other avenue to undermine their nuclear program, including trade sanctions, covert operations, sabotage and yes, diplomacy -- even if it's just for show. That way, if a war is inevitable, the US will have the support of dozens of strong allies. This is why Romney's cheap, drum-beating rhetoric in the campaign is so irresponsible. All it does is galvanize the US's enemies, alienate more methodical and gunshy allies, and gives Iran the opportunity to build sympathy and say, "See, see! They hate us and our religion!" Obama's method of slow-playing the US's hand is the right strategy. It turns the rest of the world against Iran, by saying, "We've been as reasonable as possible and they're still a threat to Israel and the US. Now let's all get together and kick their ass." What are the allies that will not support US after EU also went with sanctions? China and Russia will not support the actions of US, since they are the actions of US, period. Who else is left in the line? Seriously pissing off two dictators in two of the worlds largest countries populationwise (and the economic sugardaddy for USA) is not a problem? China and Russia are not only anti-USA. They are anti-western and anti-destabilization no matter where and when because it could end up reminding their populations that they, themself are being oppressed. Uh... no. China is not repressed save for some lack of human rights (though none of the basic ones) which the government uses to protect its power. That's obvious not good by western standards but calling it oppression is just wrong considering China has a huge emerging middle class and is general quite content right now. Also China backs Syria for national interest reasons. Just like the west turned an oppressed but, critically, stable country into an ethic slaughterfield under a pretext that wasn't even true for national interest reasons.
Ah, come on. Taiwa... Sorry Chinese Taipei. The one-nation China is a severe restriction on especially the eastern islands. Last I checked USA operated with a 24 hour scenario of chinese invasion in the area.
The human rights issues is admittedly a weaker argument (Even most countries in the western world struggles with this from time to time and yes USA and Denmark are, by far no exception) but with enough questionable moves it is increasingly problematic: Internet-traffic is monitored to a very high degree and in certain places the local governments have got laws against computer games/foreign culture products/ and more, The one-child policy in itself is only slightly iffy morally, but the sanctions for breaking it vary widely depending on what jobs you and your husband/wife has and that is the main problem. The true sign of oppression is If you critizise the government, you have to prepare for getting killed/disappeared/thrown out of China/harrassed/ridiculed etc. My primary definition of oppression is the lack of freedom to say what you want. There are degrees to oppression and China is not as bad as certain other dictatorships, but there is sufficient with evidence of fiddling with the principles of "equal to the law", "freedom of speech" and "severely restrictive laws", that constitutionality in most western definitions can call the chinese actions into question
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On the topic of the Daily Show:
I was watching last night, and one thing astounded me. The Daily Show put together an "autobiography" narrated by Leonard Nemoy (which was pretty funny and well done, but beside the point). Anyhow, during the clip-show they ran clips with Romney quotes on issues of Gun Control, Abortion, Romneycare, etc., where he literally says the complete opposite of what he's said in the debates.
Now I know that show's not exactly coming from an objective viewpoint, but it was still rough to watch. You really, really get a good idea about how....malleable... this guy's stated belief systems are. If the Daily Show is able to produce something like that, how in the hell is he going to survive October and November, when the heavy Democrat attack ads come rolling out? They will literally be able to play clips of him taking every conceivable stance on anything that Americans *seem* to give a shit about.
With a party machine behind it, that's going to be manipulated into some pretty powerful shit.
And to be fair, I think it should be, constantly changing sides like that is unprincipled. It's one reason why I will never vote Bob Rae up here. He was an Ontario NDP premier, but switched to the Liberals because he "wanted to have more influence" on the federal scene (the Liberals were one of the two main parties in Canada). Well, now the NDP have overtaken the Liberals as the lead opposition party, and quite frankly Bob Rae can go fuck himself. If he stayed with his NDP principles, he would've got elected, probably been elected head of the Federal NDP, and would actually have a legit shot at becoming Prime Minister. Now he's stuck with the Liberals because he "switched sides" so he would basically have more access to power.
That's exactly the kind of person I would not like to have in power. You want someone who's stuck to their ideals, and built up their political career from that. I think that was some of the appeal Jack Layton had. That dude had been the leader of the NDP for quite a while, and slowly built up the party while maintaining a fairly consistent set of ideals. He's the kind of man you want leading. Not a Romney/Rae, who will do whatever they can and say whatever they can to get elected and get more power.
The fact that they're so willing to compromise their ideals to obtain power just means they're extremely corruptible.
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On September 01 2012 20:07 BallinWitStalin wrote:
On the topic of the Daily Show:
I was watching last night, and one thing astounded me. The Daily Show put together an "autobiography" narrated by Leonard Nemoy (which was pretty funny and well done, but beside the point). Anyhow, during the clip-show they ran clips with Romney quotes on issues of Gun Control, Abortion, Romneycare, etc., where he literally says the complete opposite of what he's said in the debates.
Now I know that show's not exactly coming from an objective viewpoint, but it was still rough to watch. You really, really get a good idea about how....malleable... this guy's stated belief systems are. If the Daily Show is able to produce something like that, how in the hell is he going to survive October and November, when the heavy Democrat attack ads come rolling out? They will literally be able to play clips of him taking every conceivable stance on anything that Americans *seem* to give a shit about.
If you watched the Republican debates, the other nominees took him to task on the exact same issues, which is why I would never vote for him. His reputation as two-faced and flip positions is not an exaggeration, it's deserved. And it's not just a matter of his attitude 'evolving', he's fully contradicting positions he's had as recently as a year ago.
I don't think Romney is evil, but it's blatant to everyone -- even to fellow leaders in his party -- that he is an opportunist that desperately wants to be president, and will say and do anything. He's literally done nothing but campaign and jockey for the nomination for the last five years. There's a reason why it took so long for the GOP to congeal and get behind him. And he's boxed himself in the most extreme, and sometimes most contradictory positions (like cutting taxes yet somehow balancing the budget without touching medicare, the capital gains tax, corporate loophole or the defense budget).
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On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:13 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
This reads that the intent of the article is to compare the policies that originated under Bush to the policies that originated under Obama. The last line of the paragraph sums up the conclusion of the article. No where does it say that they are restricting their analysis to just big individual policies. What do you think holds more "responsibility for the deficits", new policies that cost a lot or new policies that don't cost a lot? Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010. New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B. Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins?
Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier.
Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in.
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On September 01 2012 16:13 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
No where does it say that they are restricting their analysis to just big individual policies. What do you think holds more "responsibility for the deficits", new policies that cost a lot or new policies that don't cost a lot? Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010. New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B. Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? E.g. social security will cost more as more baby boomers retire. Unemployment benefits will cost more as unemployment increases.
Those are both mandatory spending categories.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I'm a bit upset with the last poll being so pro-Obama. Coming from Russia I hope that Romney will take the election, then there is at least hope of USA having a proper foreign policy, not so full of appeasement towards corrupt regimes like the one we have here.
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On September 01 2012 21:39 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
No where does it say that they are restricting their analysis to just big individual policies. What do you think holds more "responsibility for the deficits", new policies that cost a lot or new policies that don't cost a lot? Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010. New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B. Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier. Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in.
What changes in the environment are going to amount to $400B+? That's a bit more than inflation.
Increasing discretionary spending IS a policy. You do not have to do it. You can leave it as it is as a policy decision. That's what makes it discretionary.
But since you insist on individual things here are a few...
Department of Homeland Security
No Child Left Behind
Highway Bill 2005
Farm Bill 2008
Medicare Part D
Energy Policy act of 2005
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On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 21:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:16 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
What do you think holds more "responsibility for the deficits", new policies that cost a lot or new policies that don't cost a lot? Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010. New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B. Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier. Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. What changes in the environment are going to amount to $400B+? That's a bit more than inflation.
I know you like to constantly dodge arguments, but the point is that discretionary spending increase does not simply equate to new policy decisions. Therefore you have to provide policies.
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Increasing discretionary spending IS a policy. You do not have to do it. You can leave it as it is as a policy decision. That's what makes it discretionary.
Discretionary spending is a kind of spending. It makes no sense in the context of the article to study its increase as a policy decision in itself. Again, by that logic, you can argue that "spending" is a policy decision, and put all government spending on the graph under a single label. Is that relevant in the context of the analysis? No.
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
But since you insist on individual things here are a few...
Department of Homeland Security
Not necessarily an entirely new policy, since previous existing agencies were included in the new DHS. Not quite a policy in the context of the article either. Moreover, still a smaller impact.
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
No Child Left Behind
Highway Bill 2005
Farm Bill 2008
Energy Policy act of 2005
All smaller impacts than the Bush tax cuts and the wars.
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Medicare Part D
We already covered this twice in this discussion. For the third time, the explanation of the non-inclusion of Medicare Part D is explained on p. 10 of the article. Are you going to mention it again in ten posts?
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On September 02 2012 00:19 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 21:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Bush tax cuts added $187B to the deficit in 2010.
New discretionary spending (less wars) added $428B.
Which number is bigger? We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier. Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. What changes in the environment are going to amount to $400B+? That's a bit more than inflation. I know you like to constantly dodge arguments, but the point is that discretionary spending increase does not simply equate to new policy decisions. Therefore you have to provide policies. Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Increasing discretionary spending IS a policy. You do not have to do it. You can leave it as it is as a policy decision. That's what makes it discretionary. Discretionary spending is a kind of spending. It makes no sense in the context of the article to study its increase as a policy decision in itself. Again, by that logic, you can argue that "spending" is a policy decision, and put all government spending on the graph under a single label. Is that relevant in the context of the analysis? No. Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
But since you insist on individual things here are a few...
Department of Homeland Security Not necessarily an entirely new policy, since previous existing agencies were included in the new DHS. Not quite a policy in the context of the article either. Moreover, still a smaller impact. Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
No Child Left Behind
Highway Bill 2005
Farm Bill 2008
Energy Policy act of 2005 All smaller impacts than the Bush tax cuts and the wars. We already covered this twice in this discussion. For the third time, the explanation of the non-inclusion of Medicare Part D is explained on p. 10 of the article. Are you going to mention it again in ten posts?
They *explained* why they didn't include it BUT THEY STILL SHOULD HAVE. It wasn't a good excuse! The programs I listed were in total comparable to the Bush tax cuts. There was NO context of the article to not include this stuff. They did not specify that they were only looking at individual programs.
This is really, really stupid on your end. You can't ignore $400B+ because it doesn't fall into arbitrary (and BAD) constraints that you have dreamed up after the fact.
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On September 01 2012 20:07 BallinWitStalin wrote:
I was watching last night, and one thing astounded me. The Daily Show put together an "autobiography" narrated by Leonard Nemoy (which was pretty funny and well done, but beside the point). Anyhow, during the clip-show they ran clips with Romney quotes on issues of Gun Control, Abortion, Romneycare, etc., where he literally says the complete opposite of what he's said in the debates.
This is a pretty fair criticism, although its one you could make about almost any politician. But in a way his malleability makes Romney more appealing to me. He's not an extremist; he's not an ideologue. I don't really care what Romney actually believes about gun control or abortion. The issue I care about is the economy. (I'm not even an American but it's good for everyone if the US economy is strong)
Romney is extremely smart, and he's extremely hard-working, and he's a problem-solver. He's not going to implement policies because he believes in them on an ideological level -- he's going to implement them because he thinks that they'll get the job done. I think the US could use some policies that actually work right about now!
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On September 02 2012 00:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:19 kwizach wrote:On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 21:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:23 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
We're still talking about new policies. Which new policies are included in that figure? Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death. If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier. Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. What changes in the environment are going to amount to $400B+? That's a bit more than inflation. I know you like to constantly dodge arguments, but the point is that discretionary spending increase does not simply equate to new policy decisions. Therefore you have to provide policies. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Increasing discretionary spending IS a policy. You do not have to do it. You can leave it as it is as a policy decision. That's what makes it discretionary. Discretionary spending is a kind of spending. It makes no sense in the context of the article to study its increase as a policy decision in itself. Again, by that logic, you can argue that "spending" is a policy decision, and put all government spending on the graph under a single label. Is that relevant in the context of the analysis? No. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
But since you insist on individual things here are a few...
Department of Homeland Security Not necessarily an entirely new policy, since previous existing agencies were included in the new DHS. Not quite a policy in the context of the article either. Moreover, still a smaller impact. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
No Child Left Behind
Highway Bill 2005
Farm Bill 2008
Energy Policy act of 2005 All smaller impacts than the Bush tax cuts and the wars. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Medicare Part D We already covered this twice in this discussion. For the third time, the explanation of the non-inclusion of Medicare Part D is explained on p. 10 of the article. Are you going to mention it again in ten posts? They *explained* why they didn't include it BUT THEY STILL SHOULD HAVE. It wasn't a good excuse!
It wasn't an excuse. They said they did not include the costs because they could not estimate them with the same confidence as the rest. What are they supposed to do, guess the numbers, cross fingers and hope they're right? Brilliant.
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
The programs I listed were in total comparable to the Bush tax cuts. There was NO context of the article to not include this stuff. They did not specify that they were only looking at individual programs.
Hey, as long as we're counting stuff together, why not simply consider all policies together, including the wars and the Bush tax cuts? That will allow for a great analysis of which policies had the biggest impact, right?
On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
This is really, really stupid on your end. You can't ignore $400B+ because it doesn't fall into arbitrary (and BAD) constraints that you have dreamed up after the fact.
Yeah, "arbitrary constraints" like "being a new policy" - what the article was about. I love how your complaint about the article is that they don't do what you want them to do instead of what they wanted to do. It's like someone yelling at the weatherman because he's not giving you the latest news on sports.
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On September 02 2012 01:42 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 02 2012 00:19 kwizach wrote:On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 21:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 15:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 15:16 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 14:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 01 2012 13:39 kwizach wrote:On September 01 2012 13:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Many. No where does the article state that they restricted their analysis to only large, individual policies. You can not after the fact add in that constraint. Moreover, it is a bogus constraint. The cumulative impact of many small policies is just as important as the impact of a few large ones. Death by 1000 cuts is still death.
If the Bush tax cuts had been enacted one part at a time in separate laws they would still have the same budget impact. Just because the many policies held within the Bush tax cuts are conveniently held inside a few laws, does not make them more worthy to note than many policies held within many small laws. "Many" is not an answer. Unless you can show me that it is in fact new policies that account for that figure, you have no point. Discretionary spending includes spending that has absolutely nothing to do with new policies - in fact, you can enact zero new policy and still have as much discretionary spending. Remember to find new policies that are not already taken into account in the report, such as the recovery measures. The reason the individual large policies are the ones that emerge is that they are identified as new policies having had and that will have a big impact on the budget (and not for only one fiscal year). You're welcome to present me with other new policies having had and that will have equal or bigger impacts, even thematically grouped. You don't need new policies. You can take existing policies and increase their budget. In 2001 the CBO estimated that discretionary spending would increase from $646B 2001 to $845B in 2010. When 2010 actually rolled around, however, discretionary spending was actually $1371. That difference represents policy decisions made (largely) during Bush's presidency. "Discretionary spending" is a type of spending. It is not a policy. The article wants to look at the impact of Bush-era policies and Obama-era policies. It separates them. If it wanted to look at size of mandatory spending vs size of discriminatory spending, it would have been a different article. Using "discretionary spending" does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. How does discretionary spending increase if not for policy decisions? Gremlins? Aside from the fact that your question does not answer my point, discretionary spending can increase because of changes in the environment that necessitate budget increases to achieve the same policy goals that were decided earlier. Now, to re-interate my point, "discretionary spending" is not a policy. The article studies policies. Using "discretionary spending" as a category does not allow for the kind of analysis that the article is interested in. What changes in the environment are going to amount to $400B+? That's a bit more than inflation. I know you like to constantly dodge arguments, but the point is that discretionary spending increase does not simply equate to new policy decisions. Therefore you have to provide policies. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Increasing discretionary spending IS a policy. You do not have to do it. You can leave it as it is as a policy decision. That's what makes it discretionary. Discretionary spending is a kind of spending. It makes no sense in the context of the article to study its increase as a policy decision in itself. Again, by that logic, you can argue that "spending" is a policy decision, and put all government spending on the graph under a single label. Is that relevant in the context of the analysis? No. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
But since you insist on individual things here are a few...
Department of Homeland Security Not necessarily an entirely new policy, since previous existing agencies were included in the new DHS. Not quite a policy in the context of the article either. Moreover, still a smaller impact. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
No Child Left Behind
Highway Bill 2005
Farm Bill 2008
Energy Policy act of 2005 All smaller impacts than the Bush tax cuts and the wars. On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Medicare Part D We already covered this twice in this discussion. For the third time, the explanation of the non-inclusion of Medicare Part D is explained on p. 10 of the article. Are you going to mention it again in ten posts? They *explained* why they didn't include it BUT THEY STILL SHOULD HAVE. It wasn't a good excuse! It wasn't an excuse. They said they did not include the costs because they could not estimate them with the same confidence as the rest. What are they supposed to do, guess the numbers, cross fingers and hope they're right? Brilliant.
Just use the CBO numbers. It is not hard.
Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
The programs I listed were in total comparable to the Bush tax cuts. There was NO context of the article to not include this stuff. They did not specify that they were only looking at individual programs. Hey, as long as we're counting stuff together, why not simply consider all policies together, including the wars and the Bush tax cuts? That will allow for a great analysis of which policies had the biggest impact, right?
Why not leave big items separate and aggregate small items? It would give the complete picture.
Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
This is really, really stupid on your end. You can't ignore $400B+ because it doesn't fall into arbitrary (and BAD) constraints that you have dreamed up after the fact. Yeah, "arbitrary constraints" like "being a new policy" - what the article was about. I love how your complaint about the article is that they don't do what you want them to do instead of what they wanted to do. It's like someone yelling at the weatherman because he's not giving you the latest news on sports.
The article was about the causes of the deficit. They use that word. You cannot have an honest article about causes where only some causes are listed as the total cause. "Being an new policy" is not what the article was about. It was about the causes of the deficit. The causes. That's why they included "Economic downturn" - obviously economic downturn is not a "new policy"!!!
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EPT
