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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:33 Epocalypse wrote: Obama - Liar in Chief The very title of that video is wrong (and mispelled but thats beside point). He actually got sort of lucky that they considered it a tax considering that there is no reason to not just ignore the fine for not buying healthcare completely since theres nothing they can do about it. I actually dont know any other taxes that I can just ignore and not pay and have nothing bad happen to me. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 29 2012 23:09 Lightwip wrote: Americans like socialism only when it's not called socialism. Americans like socialism when the people it benefits are corporations. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On June 30 2012 01:21 Defacer wrote: Americans like socialism when the people it benefits are corporations. You're confusing Americans with Politicians. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:28 Adreme wrote: I actually dont know any other taxes that I can just ignore and not pay and have nothing bad happen to me. Actually you do. There are lots of taxable events that you probably don't pay for. Have you ever been to Vegas or buy a lottery ticket and win some money? You owe taxes. Have you ever mistakenly gotten more money in change or found money on the ground? You owe taxes. But probably you didn't report them and pay them, and the IRS has never bothered to chase you down for every penny. Don't mistake the lack of enforcement with the right to just ignore it. It is unclear right now how strictly Obama will enforce the individual mandate. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 30 2012 01:21 Defacer wrote: Americans like socialism when the people it benefits are corporations. Americans like socialism when it benefits themselves as well. Polls on the Tea Party show that (ironically) many of them support Social Security and Medicare because as an older group many of them were beneficiaries, all while denouncing big government spending and demanding lower taxes. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:06 sunprince wrote: Americans like socialism when it benefits themselves as well. Polls on the Tea Party show that (ironically) many of them support Social Security and Medicare because as an older group many of them were beneficiaries, all while denouncing big government spending and demanding lower taxes. I honestly feel as though most US politics boils down to a petty language game, one in which words and the ideas with which they are meant to represent are summarily divorced to the point of utter incoherence. If one were to walk down a street in Anytown, USA, and ask random people questions that included words like "liberal", "conservative", and "socialism", you can bet it wouldn't take long for reason and rationality to quickly retreat into the background as the political buzzwords sow their seeds of meaningless conflict. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:15 farvacola wrote: I honestly feel as though most US politics boils down to a petty language game, one in which words and the ideas with which they are meant to represent are summarily divorced to the point of utter incoherence. If one were to walk down a street in Anytown, USA, and ask random people questions that included words like "liberal", "conservative", and "socialism", you can bet it wouldn't take long for reason and rationality to quickly retreat into the background as the political buzzwords sow their seeds of meaningless conflict. Nah, politics is just a game. Democrats and Republicans use whatever word it takes for you to support their side and oppose the other. The ultimate Democratic dream is to get to a point where you hear "Republican" and automatically think "I oppose this", and vice versa. The part that will make you cynical is that the people in the parties who actually play the game don't hate each other. They mostly understand that this is how the game is played. Maybe it won't make you cynical since StarCraft 2 is exactly the same way. We talk about players going to war and wanting to beat each other, and certainly everyone wants to defeat their opponents and win. But do players actually hate each other outside of the game? Do foreign and Korean players take their conflict personally? Pretty rarely. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:06 sunprince wrote: Americans like socialism when it benefits themselves as well. Polls on the Tea Party show that (ironically) many of them support Social Security and Medicare because as an older group many of them were beneficiaries, all while denouncing big government spending and demanding lower taxes. Sounds like too many in Tea Party not sure what the real party platform is. Ask any city-size organizer, or state organizer ... and they'll say the platform includes massively reforming social security and medicare in light of their contribution to national debt. Romney lost out big time in his chance to condemn the health insurance law he passed in Massachusetts that PPACA was based on. Now the failures of Obamacare can't be very legitimately criticized by his campaign. I still think Obama's record on anti-business legislation and propagation of economic uncertainty will push enough to vote against him to give Romney a win in November. It's just going to be a closer margin of victory. I'm assuming Romney/supporters will put out enough ads targeting Obama's record on transparency, job creation/economy, and legislation to remind undecided voters just how bad an Obama second term would be. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:06 sunprince wrote: Americans like socialism when it benefits themselves as well. Polls on the Tea Party show that (ironically) many of them support Social Security and Medicare because as an older group many of them were beneficiaries, all while denouncing big government spending and demanding lower taxes. This is almost as shocking as taking a poll of victims of a ponzi scheme, and asking if the ponzi scheme is good and should continue or bad and should be shut down immediately. Of course they want to get out what they put in. That's not hypocritical with a position that it's bad to start new ponzi schemes. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 30 2012 06:03 coverpunch wrote: Actually you do. There are lots of taxable events that you probably don't pay for. Have you ever been to Vegas or buy a lottery ticket and win some money? You owe taxes. Have you ever mistakenly gotten more money in change or found money on the ground? You owe taxes. But probably you didn't report them and pay them, and the IRS has never bothered to chase you down for every penny. Don't mistake the lack of enforcement with the right to just ignore it. It is unclear right now how strictly Obama will enforce the individual mandate. It's not just Obama's enforcement. He's only in office for, at most, 4 1/2 more years. The system barely starts to kick in by then. Just wait a few years when our debt is over $20 trillion, and politicians are working to do everything they can to bring in more tax dollars. You can bet IRS enforcement will be incredible. Frankly, I'm looking forward to it, because IMO, the people calling for more taxes are the ones least affected by it. Coming soon, they will see themselves much more affected than anticipated. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:52 coverpunch wrote: Nah, politics is just a game. Democrats and Republicans use whatever word it takes for you to support their side and oppose the other. The ultimate Democratic dream is to get to a point where you hear "Republican" and automatically think "I oppose this", and vice versa. The part that will make you cynical is that the people in the parties who actually play the game don't hate each other. They mostly understand that this is how the game is played. Maybe it won't make you cynical since StarCraft 2 is exactly the same way. We talk about players going to war and wanting to beat each other, and certainly everyone wants to defeat their opponents and win. But do players actually hate each other outside of the game? Do foreign and Korean players take their conflict personally? Pretty rarely. The Democratic and Republican parties in the US are not as monolithic as you are suggesting, and whatever sort of intentional collusion between parties you are hinting at seems rather baseless. Both parties do not operate in the same fashion, and while some bullshit partisan conduct is indeed practiced by both sides, I know that the Democrats and scant few Republicans who I agree with have incredibly different perspectives on progress in the US. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:59 Kaitlin wrote: This is almost as shocking as taking a poll of victims of a ponzi scheme, and asking if the ponzi scheme is good and should continue or bad and should be shut down immediately. Of course they want to get out what they put in. That's not hypocritical with a position that it's bad to start new ponzi schemes. I agree that it's not unexpected, but it's definitely still hypocritical. Someone eventually has to bear some of the burden when Ponzi schemes collapse. If you're truly and fervently opposed to Ponzi schemes, then you would be willing to take on at least some of that burden to destroy them. The fact that most Tea Partiers oppose cuts to the two biggest entitlement programs while loudly arguing for massive tax cuts and spending reductions that are literally impossible without touching SS/medicare, indicatese ignorance at best and complete dishonesty at worst. What they're actually doing is demanding that the burden of the Ponzi scheme fall upon future generations instead of themselves, while increasing the extent of that Ponzi scheme (by demanding lower taxes when there's already massive debt, you further fuck over future generations for your own benefit). If they really hated Ponzi schemes, they wouldn't do that. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:54 Danglars wrote: Romney lost out big time in his chance to condemn the health insurance law he passed in Massachusetts that PPACA was based on. Now the failures of Obamacare can't be very legitimately criticized by his campaign. I still think Obama's record on anti-business legislation and propagation of economic uncertainty will push enough to vote against him to give Romney a win in November. It's just going to be a closer margin of victory. I'm assuming Romney/supporters will put out enough ads targeting Obama's record on transparency, job creation/economy, and legislation to remind undecided voters just how bad an Obama second term would be. Can you clarify what the people mean by 'anti-business legislation' or 'the propagation of economic uncertainty'? Has Obama raised taxes on businesses? Is he spraying graffiti and smashing store windows? Is he going to other countries and saying, "hmmmmm, I don't know about the United States, I wouldn't bother investing in us ... ." Any specific policies or legislation would be most helpful. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:12 sunprince wrote: I agree that it's not unexpected, but it's definitely still hypocritical. Someone eventually has to bear some of the burden when Ponzi schemes collapse. If you're truly and fervently opposed to Ponzi schemes, then you would be willing to take on at least some of that burden to destroy them. The fact that most Tea Partiers oppose cuts to the two biggest entitlement programs while loudly arguing for massive tax cuts and spending reductions that are literally impossible without touching SS/medicare, indicatese ignorance at best and complete dishonesty at worst. What they're actually doing is demanding that the burden of the Ponzi scheme fall upon future generations instead of themselves, while increasing the extent of that Ponzi scheme (by demanding lower taxes when there's already massive debt, you further fuck over future generations for your own benefit). If they really hated Ponzi schemes, they wouldn't do that. Oh come on, they're not thinking that far ahead. You give them far too much credit. Of course Social Security and Medicare aren't Ponzi schemes. | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:59 Kaitlin wrote: This is almost as shocking as taking a poll of victims of a ponzi scheme, and asking if the ponzi scheme is good and should continue or bad and should be shut down immediately. Of course they want to get out what they put in. That's not hypocritical with a position that it's bad to start new ponzi schemes. It's hypocritical because they are voting to continue forcing the generation behind them to pay into supporting the ponzi scheme for current/near-future beneficiaries while also voting to eliminate the benefits for that generation when it's their turn to retire. If they're unwilling to pay in themselves without receiving benefits, then it's totally hypocritical for them to expect us to do it. Whatever generation decides to end social security should take the bullet themselves, not force that upon whoever comes after them. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:23 DoubleReed wrote: Oh come on, they're not thinking that far ahead. You give them far too much credit. Hanlon's Razor?  Personally, I'd argue that a majority of the rank and file fall under the "incompetent" category while a majority of the politicians and organizers fall under the "malicious" category.On June 30 2012 09:23 DoubleReed wrote: Of course Social Security and Medicare aren't Ponzi schemes. Any sort of irresponsible and unsustainable deficit/debt is a Ponzi scheme. It's essentially borrowing money for later generations to pay back. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:23 DoubleReed wrote: Oh come on, they're not thinking that far ahead. You give them far too much credit. Of course Social Security and Medicare aren't Ponzi schemes. They're more like promises you don't know how to pay for yet. Did I mention that the federal government in Canada confirmed that the Canadian Pension Plan is fine and dandy for at least another 75 years, and there is actually of surplus of contributions? Just throwing that out there. Tee hee. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:30 sunprince wrote: Any sort of irresponsible and unsustainable deficit/debt is a Ponzi scheme. It's essentially borrowing money for later generations to pay back. I 100% believe that given a proper overhaul with due diligence on the part of lawmakers, all of the current US government safety net programs could run sustainably, the issue of course being how immensely difficult the task of crystalizing the political concord necessary to enact such an overhaul would be. One can hope. | ||
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