• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:13
CEST 06:13
KST 13:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202512Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced27BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Shield Battery Server New Patch BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 514 users

President Obama Re-Elected - Page 164

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 162 163 164 165 166 1504 Next
Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 12:09:16
July 03 2012 11:58 GMT
#3261
On July 03 2012 20:35 Epocalypse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 17:32 WhiteDog wrote:
Made me laugh out loud that someone could think otherwise. Romney is not a capitalist either, neither is the republicant party but they claim to be. Both are defenders of mixed economies, but are looking to push things to the left.


Show nested quote +

Capitalism and free market aren't the same thing. Capitalism is "an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit".
Is Obama against private ownership of the means of production ? No, so he is not an anticapitalist.


Hes not against the ownership of production... but he is for control of it.
...hence ObamaCare. Romney too, although there's talk about repealing it, if you've read some of the previous articles I've posted, What Romney did in his home state was like a prequel to ObamaCare... both have different ideas of how you should be your brother's keeper, but have the same end game.

Erm, the ACA has nothing to do with state-ownership of production. The ownership of the means of production remains private, so by definition it is not anticapitalist. In fact, even the public option - which is not in the ACA - would not put into question the capitalist nature of the US' economic system.

On July 03 2012 20:35 Epocalypse wrote:
Oh and Capitalism is a social system...
"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned."

No, capitalism is an economic system. Look it up in the dictionary, not on aynrand.org.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Epocalypse
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada319 Posts
July 03 2012 13:03 GMT
#3262
Google: Define Capitalism: An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

The more important point that this definition fails to capture is "based on individual rights" so the previous definition I have makes it more clear, identifies the essentials, and separates it from everything else. Definitions are very important.

"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned."
bw4life
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 13:22:48
July 03 2012 13:16 GMT
#3263
On July 03 2012 22:03 Epocalypse wrote:
Google: Define Capitalism: An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

The more important point that this definition fails to capture is "based on individual rights" so the previous definition I have makes it more clear, identifies the essentials, and separates it from everything else. Definitions are very important.

"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned."


Your definition is a bullshit one from Ayn Rand. It's about as legit as using Marxist definition of capitalism.

Only a quack like you would operate with your definition in any sort of serious discussion.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
July 03 2012 13:25 GMT
#3264
Not that I want to feed Epocalypse more, but the individual right to property doesn't mean that all property is privately owned (I have no idea how this would apply for things like air and water). It doesn't negate the idea of public property. That just doesn't logically follow.

Plus, you do realize that taking the right to property absolutely directly implies slavery, right?
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 13:43:24
July 03 2012 13:30 GMT
#3265
On July 03 2012 22:25 DoubleReed wrote:
Not that I want to feed Epocalypse more, but the individual right to property doesn't mean that all property is privately owned (I have no idea how this would apply for things like air and water). It doesn't negate the idea of public property. That just doesn't logically follow.


I'm sure in Epocalypse's view, the air and water belong to any citizen who manages to utilize them (the same way other natural resources do, according to Rand worshippers).

Hello, tragedy of the commons!
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 14:02:22
July 03 2012 13:42 GMT
#3266
On July 03 2012 22:03 Epocalypse wrote:
Google: Define Capitalism: An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

The more important point that this definition fails to capture is "based on individual rights" so the previous definition I have makes it more clear, identifies the essentials, and separates it from everything else. Definitions are very important.

"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned."

Merriam-Webster: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market".
Collins dictionary: "an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions".

You're welcome.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 13:48:35
July 03 2012 13:48 GMT
#3267
On July 03 2012 17:24 Epocalypse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 16:43 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 03 2012 16:22 Epocalypse wrote:
Article describes differences between world views... How one party can view an event in one way, and when another party views the same event, they view it different.
Also reminds me of when Obama antagonized George Stephanopoulos for daring to look up the meaning of a word in the dictionary.

http://onforb.es/MRMVSz

Clarity and Exact definitions work to the advantage of the honest.

I've never read such a stupid article. Obama is an anti-capitalist now ? What the...



Made me laugh out loud that someone could think otherwise. Romney is not a capitalist either, neither is the republicant party but they claim to be. Both are defenders of mixed economies, but are looking to push things to the left.

The capitalism that you seek is a fairy tale that can only exist in some abstract fantasy. It's little different from the kind of "pure" ccommunism that some idiots harp on about when they spew out their apologia for their impossible socio-economic system.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 14:41:08
July 03 2012 14:38 GMT
#3268
On July 03 2012 22:30 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 22:25 DoubleReed wrote:
Not that I want to feed Epocalypse more, but the individual right to property doesn't mean that all property is privately owned (I have no idea how this would apply for things like air and water). It doesn't negate the idea of public property. That just doesn't logically follow.


I'm sure in Epocalypse's view, the air and water belong to any citizen who manages to utilize them (the same way other natural resources do, according to Rand worshippers).

Hello, tragedy of the commons!


What? That makes no sense in terms of everything being privately owned. Someone would own the air or water before anyone uses it. The idea that "we own what we use" is, if anything, a communist idea. And that's just downright confusing.

And I believe the politically correct term is Randroid.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
July 03 2012 14:48 GMT
#3269
On July 03 2012 23:38 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 22:30 sunprince wrote:
On July 03 2012 22:25 DoubleReed wrote:
Not that I want to feed Epocalypse more, but the individual right to property doesn't mean that all property is privately owned (I have no idea how this would apply for things like air and water). It doesn't negate the idea of public property. That just doesn't logically follow.


I'm sure in Epocalypse's view, the air and water belong to any citizen who manages to utilize them (the same way other natural resources do, according to Rand worshippers).

Hello, tragedy of the commons!


What? That makes no sense in terms of everything being privately owned. Someone would own the air or water before anyone uses it. The idea that "we own what we use" is, if anything, a communist idea. And that's just downright confusing.

And I believe the politically correct term is Randroid.

The newer models prefer their entire name be used, as in, "Good morning, Ayn Randroid Peikoffbot.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 03 2012 18:59 GMT
#3270
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 20:49:33
July 03 2012 20:38 GMT
#3271
Reading you is sad Epocalypse. Capitalism is not a social system, capitalism can exist in democracy, facism, dictature or whatever (even if it is sure more efficient in some political system than others).

There is a reason why it is communism and socialism that are against capitalism, because they believe the means of production should be the property of the community or should be socialised.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2012 21:17 GMT
#3272
On July 04 2012 03:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHSVIrIBd1s

Eh, I think a little too much is being made of Romney's problems with Obamacare being considered a tax given its similarities with Romneycare. At the end of the day, all that's going to matter are 1) whether voters want to keep Obamacare, and 2) whether voters believe that Romney will repeal Obamacare. I don't think that there's going to be much about that Romney will repeal Obamacare. With regards to the first point, I don't think that Obama has done a particularly good job defending it thus far (judging by its consistent unpopularity). He's going to have to step up his efforts in that regard over the next few months.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:43:29
July 03 2012 21:25 GMT
#3273
On July 03 2012 23:38 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 22:30 sunprince wrote:
On July 03 2012 22:25 DoubleReed wrote:
Not that I want to feed Epocalypse more, but the individual right to property doesn't mean that all property is privately owned (I have no idea how this would apply for things like air and water). It doesn't negate the idea of public property. That just doesn't logically follow.


I'm sure in Epocalypse's view, the air and water belong to any citizen who manages to utilize them (the same way other natural resources do, according to Rand worshippers).

Hello, tragedy of the commons!


What? That makes no sense in terms of everything being privately owned. Someone would own the air or water before anyone uses it. The idea that "we own what we use" is, if anything, a communist idea. And that's just downright confusing.

And I believe the politically correct term is Randroid.


I believe the idea is that resources belong to whoever claims them, possibly with the requirement of exploiting them and therefore "giving them value". For example, to a hardcore Randtard an unowned patch of forest has no value and belongs to no one, but when you claim it and chop it down then the resulting lumber has value and belongs to you.

In other words, Randroids respect individual rights but completely fail to understand public goods or externalities (and that's why they oppose all regulation). If this sounds insane, remember that Randtards believe that natural resources are infinite and that the invisible hand will naturally take care of everything because humans are that awesome.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
July 03 2012 21:32 GMT
#3274
On July 04 2012 06:17 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 03:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHSVIrIBd1s

Eh, I think a little too much is being made of Romney's problems with Obamacare being considered a tax given its similarities with Romneycare. At the end of the day, all that's going to matter are 1) whether voters want to keep Obamacare, and 2) whether voters believe that Romney will repeal Obamacare. I don't think that there's going to be much about that Romney will repeal Obamacare. With regards to the first point, I don't think that Obama has done a particularly good job defending it thus far (judging by its consistent unpopularity). He's going to have to step up his efforts in that regard over the next few months.


Gallup polls suggest that Americans are pretty much split down the middle in terms of how they feel about Obamacare. However, only 20% of likely voters say that they would base their vote upon a candidate position on healthcare.

Obama and Romney would both be better served by fighting over (other) economic issues instead.
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
July 03 2012 21:35 GMT
#3275
The average American hasn't the slightest idea what Obamacare even is. Every poll about it is useless. They need their pea brains to be swayed one way or the other during the debates.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2012 21:38 GMT
#3276
On July 04 2012 06:32 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 06:17 xDaunt wrote:
On July 04 2012 03:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHSVIrIBd1s

Eh, I think a little too much is being made of Romney's problems with Obamacare being considered a tax given its similarities with Romneycare. At the end of the day, all that's going to matter are 1) whether voters want to keep Obamacare, and 2) whether voters believe that Romney will repeal Obamacare. I don't think that there's going to be much about that Romney will repeal Obamacare. With regards to the first point, I don't think that Obama has done a particularly good job defending it thus far (judging by its consistent unpopularity). He's going to have to step up his efforts in that regard over the next few months.


Gallup polls suggest that Americans are pretty much split down the middle in terms of how they feel about Obamacare. However, only 20% of likely voters say that they would base their vote upon a candidate position on healthcare.

Obama and Romney would both be better served by fighting over (other) economic issues instead.


Those are pretty good numbers for Romney -- particularly the numbers among independents.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2012 21:39 GMT
#3277
On July 04 2012 06:35 DannyJ wrote:
The average American hasn't the slightest idea what Obamacare even is. Every poll about it is useless. They need their pea brains to be swayed one way or the other during the debates.


Yeah, that's also true. I saw a poll a couple days ago showing that 40% had no idea what was going on with regards to Obamacare.
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:46:30
July 03 2012 21:41 GMT
#3278
41% didn't know the SCOTUS upheld it, I know that.

If you aren't aware or care about major news like that you obviously have no idea what's going on in general.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
July 03 2012 21:45 GMT
#3279
On July 04 2012 06:38 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 06:32 sunprince wrote:
On July 04 2012 06:17 xDaunt wrote:
On July 04 2012 03:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHSVIrIBd1s

Eh, I think a little too much is being made of Romney's problems with Obamacare being considered a tax given its similarities with Romneycare. At the end of the day, all that's going to matter are 1) whether voters want to keep Obamacare, and 2) whether voters believe that Romney will repeal Obamacare. I don't think that there's going to be much about that Romney will repeal Obamacare. With regards to the first point, I don't think that Obama has done a particularly good job defending it thus far (judging by its consistent unpopularity). He's going to have to step up his efforts in that regard over the next few months.


Gallup polls suggest that Americans are pretty much split down the middle in terms of how they feel about Obamacare. However, only 20% of likely voters say that they would base their vote upon a candidate position on healthcare.

Obama and Romney would both be better served by fighting over (other) economic issues instead.


Those are pretty good numbers for Romney -- particularly the numbers among independents.


I dunno, it's not like Romney is the anti-Obamacare candidate. Honestly, now that it's constitutional it seems like a strict win for Obama because Romney has to be pretty disingenuous when trying to criticize.
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
July 03 2012 21:48 GMT
#3280
On July 04 2012 06:41 DannyJ wrote:
41% didn't know the SCOTUS upheld it, I know that.

If you aren't aware or care about major news like that you obviously have no idea what's going on in general.


59% of Americans don't vote either, and those two groups probably overlap heavily.
Prev 1 162 163 164 165 166 1504 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 47m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 312
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4856
PianO 545
Leta 525
Zeus 427
zelot 86
Sexy 63
Noble 44
Bale 32
Aegong 30
Sacsri 26
[ Show more ]
JulyZerg 24
Icarus 7
Dota 2
monkeys_forever758
League of Legends
JimRising 853
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 256
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox656
Other Games
summit1g15733
shahzam1261
WinterStarcraft249
Maynarde180
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1359
BasetradeTV7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta77
• practicex 6
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6667
• Rush1457
• Stunt567
Other Games
• Scarra1021
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 47m
WardiTV European League
11h 47m
PiGosaur Monday
19h 47m
OSC
1d 8h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 11h
The PondCast
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.