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On November 14 2012 06:23 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 06:04 oneofthem wrote:On November 14 2012 03:56 farvacola wrote:This thread suddenly became very ominous  Anyways, here's a funny article on why Paul Ryan thinks they lost. Representative Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin on Monday blamed Democratic turnout in “urban areas” for the loss by the Republican presidential ticket last week, saying he was surprised that he and Mitt Romney did not do better in the nation’s big cities.
“The surprise was some of the turnout, some of the turnout especially in urban areas, which gave President Obama the big margin to win this race,” Mr. Ryan said in an interview with WISC-TV. “When we watched Virginia and Ohio coming in, and those ones coming in as tight as they were, and looking like we were going to lose them, that’s when it became clear we weren’t going to win.”
The remarks prompted scorn from some liberals who viewed Mr. Ryan as blaming inner-city minorities for the Republican defeat. Source the code words, what they mean? on planet kolob paul ryan said:
“I don’t think we lost it on those budget issues, especially on Medicare — we clearly didn’t lose it on those issues,” he said. the implication that urban voters are not voting on the issues, or are not legitimate representation on the issues, or not legitimate voters at all, are made with varying degrees of implicitness. anyway in actual news we'll probably see increased calls for debt forgiveness, foreclosure stoppage/refinancing efforts etc. especially after that demarco guy is replaced. The insinuation that he was being at all racist is a huge stretch. That being said, if they really don't think they lost ground on budget issues, I don't have much hope for the future GOP.
Its unclear though. On one hand, it is a factual statement that the Romney campaign was completed shocked that Obama managed to get more African American, Latino and youth vote out.
On the other hand, His statement is no different from O'Reiley's and Politico's "Obama doenst have a mandate because white males didnt vote for him"
As to Ryan's own "We didnt lose on the issue" bullshit, that was expected. Ryan has no legacy except his supposed 'wonkiness' -- wonkiness that was proven baseless -- so when he tries to run in the 16 primary, he wont have a record of governance and he wont have a record of success and he wont attract the youth or the latino vote (Rubio) or the bipartisan vote (Christie) so he needs something and his thing is the belief that most Americans are John Gault lovers.
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On November 14 2012 06:41 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 06:23 aksfjh wrote:On November 14 2012 06:04 oneofthem wrote:On November 14 2012 03:56 farvacola wrote:This thread suddenly became very ominous Anyways, here's a funny article on why Paul Ryan thinks they lost. Representative Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin on Monday blamed Democratic turnout in “urban areas” for the loss by the Republican presidential ticket last week, saying he was surprised that he and Mitt Romney did not do better in the nation’s big cities.
“The surprise was some of the turnout, some of the turnout especially in urban areas, which gave President Obama the big margin to win this race,” Mr. Ryan said in an interview with WISC-TV. “When we watched Virginia and Ohio coming in, and those ones coming in as tight as they were, and looking like we were going to lose them, that’s when it became clear we weren’t going to win.”
The remarks prompted scorn from some liberals who viewed Mr. Ryan as blaming inner-city minorities for the Republican defeat. Source the code words, what they mean? on planet kolob paul ryan said:
“I don’t think we lost it on those budget issues, especially on Medicare — we clearly didn’t lose it on those issues,” he said. the implication that urban voters are not voting on the issues, or are not legitimate representation on the issues, or not legitimate voters at all, are made with varying degrees of implicitness. anyway in actual news we'll probably see increased calls for debt forgiveness, foreclosure stoppage/refinancing efforts etc. especially after that demarco guy is replaced. The insinuation that he was being at all racist is a huge stretch. That being said, if they really don't think they lost ground on budget issues, I don't have much hope for the future GOP. Both parties seem super on edge to me. Democrats are irrationally hopeful that the election will snap republicans out of their madness and reel at the slightest hint of them doubling down on conservative ideology. Even the staunch conservatives in this thread seem to be all over the political map these days. As fun as speculation is, a wait and see attitude is probably healthy. At least until there is action put behind words.
I dont think Democrats are irrationally hopefully. They are just very happy because (a) this was a historic ass beating and (b) it finally looks like its the Democrats who have the better elections game then the Republicans.
The second point is especially poignant because if the Democrats were as good at the ground game in 2000 as they were in 2012 we could have skipped the horror that was the Bush years.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
in fairness, 'urban renewal' and segregation through price play such important part in the development of the american inner city, particularly as it is seen by suburban white people. the association is pretty readily available to someone who is aware of the history of cities as well as suburban prejudices.
it's not that wild of a charge to say that ryan is oblivious to his own prejudice about urban voters.
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On November 14 2012 07:25 oneofthem wrote:
in fairness, 'urban renewal' and segregation through price play such important part in the development of the american inner city, particularly as it is seen by suburban white people. the association is pretty readily available to someone who is aware of the history of cities as well as suburban prejudices.
it's not that wild of a charge
A real irony here is that Mitt's father George Romney was in favor in urban integration (even back when blacks were inferior in Mormon theology!) on the principle of alleviating the conditions that created riots and racial unrest, rather than just busting heads, which was Nixon's favored approach.
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On November 14 2012 07:25 oneofthem wrote:
in fairness, 'urban renewal' and segregation through price play such important part in the development of the american inner city, particularly as it is seen by suburban white people. the association is pretty readily available to someone who is aware of the history of cities as well as suburban prejudices.
it's not that wild of a charge to say that ryan is oblivious to his own prejudice about urban voters.
Defining and understanding urban voters are different from suburban and rural voters is fine. I'm only having issues with the "necessary" jump from a socio-economic-geographic specification to one based on race.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea, i would opt for race neutral rhetoric in all cases except real and bad racism. some people deny that racism exists though so it's kind of unfair to say any mention of race is playing the race card etc.
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On November 14 2012 07:38 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 07:25 oneofthem wrote:
in fairness, 'urban renewal' and segregation through price play such important part in the development of the american inner city, particularly as it is seen by suburban white people. the association is pretty readily available to someone who is aware of the history of cities as well as suburban prejudices.
it's not that wild of a charge to say that ryan is oblivious to his own prejudice about urban voters. Defining and understanding urban voters are different from suburban and rural voters is fine. I'm only having issues with the "necessary" jump from a socio-economic-geographic specification to one based on race.
Even further, he is mostly just pointing to the voter-turnout as an issue for the republicans loosing. It might well be a recognition of their challenges, which absolutely isn't racist but might be seen as him being realistic. I think Romneycare made Obamacare a smaller issue than Ryan think. I also think he severely underestimates the doubts about financing in the tax plan. Fear of the unknown is such a strong motivator for keeping the existing.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i don't know if you are familiar with american urban history, or the genesis of urban/suburban attitudes. there is a real issue here but whatever
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On November 14 2012 08:10 oneofthem wrote:
i don't know if you are familiar with american urban history, or the genesis of urban/suburban attitudes. there is a real issue here but whatever
Correct and I am fairly aware of dixiecrats, the deep south and the civil rights movement in the 60's. I just do not think there is anything specific to suggest a racial disapproval from Ryan in this case.
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On November 14 2012 08:15 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 08:10 oneofthem wrote:
i don't know if you are familiar with american urban history, or the genesis of urban/suburban attitudes. there is a real issue here but whatever Correct and I am fairly aware of dixiecrats, the deep south and the civil rights movement in the 60's. I just do not think there is anything specific to suggest a racial disapproval from Ryan in this case.
It's probably more of that, this is how he's presented his arguments in the past and this leans that way. He could have meant it with zero racial backing but the fact he is even inferring a slight possibility of it being racially connected makes one automatically assert that to his argument.
It's really a toss, who knows.
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Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
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On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus.
That tends to happen with 30 years of the middle class shrinking along with pay and benefits, while costs get passed onto the consumer and profits gets passed onto the very top of a company. Divining our economy into catering to the very rich and the lower income brackets.
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On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
What a ridiculous statement. Santa Claus may be what Obama is, but it's better then the farce Romney is... Also correct me if I'm wrong but the states labeled "Republican" are most of the poorest states in America aren't they?
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/
Wouldn't Republicans ironically be the 47%?
You argument is that poor single and minorities are voting because of welfare when Republican majority states eat up welfare.
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On November 14 2012 09:04 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus.
That tends to happen with 30 years of the middle class shrinking along with pay and benefits, while costs get passed onto the consumer and profits gets passed onto the very top of a company. Divining our economy into catering to the very rich and the lower income brackets.
I would imagine that 5+ years of ~20% real unemployment / underemployment has had something to do with it as well. Unfortunately, that is almost entirely driven by people like you who demonize the "evil rich," leading them to hoard cash or go overseas rather than creating the jobs that we need.
On November 14 2012 09:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
What a ridiculous statement. Santa Claus may be what Obama is, but it's better then the farce Romney is... Also correct me if I'm wrong but the states labeled "Republican" are most of the poorest states in America aren't they? http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Republicans ironically be the 47%?
If all of the Republicans exclusively lived within the states labeled "Republican," then yes, you would be correct, my good man.
Also, may I take this time to educate you on the strawman logical fallacy? Please see here.
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United States43468 Posts
On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
God it sucks to be a straight white Christian male in today's world.
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I think the biggest problem here was a glaring disconnect from reality for the Republican party. Their internal polling painted a ridiculously sunny picture for Romney-- winning Florida, leading or tied in swing states and even able to make plays in Pennsylvania, Michigan and other places. They were so convinced that they were able to dismiss months and months of polls that showed otherwise. Most campaigns had a pretty good idea of where they stood, but never has one simply been blindsided by reality so badly. I don't think there has been such an "internal upset" ever.
They've got to go back and figure out where they started diverging from reality. Then they need to re-evaluate their strategies.
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On November 14 2012 09:12 Maxyim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:04 semantics wrote:On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus.
That tends to happen with 30 years of the middle class shrinking along with pay and benefits, while costs get passed onto the consumer and profits gets passed onto the very top of a company. Divining our economy into catering to the very rich and the lower income brackets. I would imagine that 5+ years of ~20% real unemployment / underemployment has had something to do with it as well. Unfortunately, that is almost entirely driven by people like you who demonize the "evil rich," leading them to hoard cash or go overseas rather than creating the jobs that we need. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
What a ridiculous statement. Santa Claus may be what Obama is, but it's better then the farce Romney is... Also correct me if I'm wrong but the states labeled "Republican" are most of the poorest states in America aren't they? http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Republicans ironically be the 47%? If all of the Republicans exclusively lived within the states labeled "Republican," then yes, you would be correct, my good man. Also, may I take this time to educate you on the strawman logical fallacy? Please see here.
I understand not everyone in those states ia Republican but isn't it a little bit odd the 10 poorest states are Republican at all? I mean not every richer blue state is fully Democratic to say the very least, maybe there's a correlation. But if all you have is "well not everyone there is Republican" then I suppose we can leave it as the majority of voters in those states which are the poorest are Republican and draw are own conclusions.
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United States43468 Posts
On November 14 2012 09:14 ticklishmusic wrote:
I think the biggest problem here was a glaring disconnect from reality for the Republican party. Their internal polling painted a ridiculously sunny picture for Romney-- winning Florida, leading or tied in swing states and even able to make plays in Pennsylvania, Michigan and other places. They were so convinced that they were able to dismiss months and months of polls that showed otherwise. Most campaigns had a pretty good idea of where they stood, but never has one simply been blindsided by reality so badly. I don't think there has been such an "internal upset" ever.
They've got to go back and figure out where they started diverging from reality. Then they need to re-evaluate their strategies.
Nobody would donate money to a campaign with no momentum or plan to win the election, let alone turn out to vote. They were lying and hoping if they lied enough and generated enough momentum the votes would materialise. They did not. Also a valid metaphor for their tax plan.
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On November 14 2012 09:16 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 09:12 Maxyim wrote:On November 14 2012 09:04 semantics wrote:On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus.
That tends to happen with 30 years of the middle class shrinking along with pay and benefits, while costs get passed onto the consumer and profits gets passed onto the very top of a company. Divining our economy into catering to the very rich and the lower income brackets. I would imagine that 5+ years of ~20% real unemployment / underemployment has had something to do with it as well. Unfortunately, that is almost entirely driven by people like you who demonize the "evil rich," leading them to hoard cash or go overseas rather than creating the jobs that we need. On November 14 2012 09:11 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 14 2012 09:00 Maxyim wrote:
Why are you guys trying so hard to paint Ryan as a closet racist? His meaning was clear and correlates to the "47%" comments from Romney as well as exit poll data - minorities and single women voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and both of these groups are much more likely than other groups to be on welfare. In short, the American Majority has learned to vote for Santa Claus just like the rest of the civilized world.
What a ridiculous statement. Santa Claus may be what Obama is, but it's better then the farce Romney is... Also correct me if I'm wrong but the states labeled "Republican" are most of the poorest states in America aren't they? http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Republicans ironically be the 47%? If all of the Republicans exclusively lived within the states labeled "Republican," then yes, you would be correct, my good man. Also, may I take this time to educate you on the strawman logical fallacy? Please see here. I understand not everyone in those states ia Republican but isn't it a little bit odd the 10 poorest states are Republican at all? I mean not every richer blue state is fully Democratic to say the very least, maybe there's a correlation. But if all you have is "well not everyone there is Republican" then I suppose we can leave it as the majority of voters in those states which are the poorest are Republican and draw are own conclusions.
You are adding nothing to this conversation. Nobody is talking about Romney anymore, he lost, he is most likely taking the Palin route with politics, etc, etc. OK? We get it, the 47% comment is logically unsound. Better would have been to say "people will not vote for me because I am not Santa Claus," but you will never hear a politician say this because nobody has had any balls since Reagan.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
let's get some reasonable rightwingers here lest people believe every conservative is a guy blaming welfare mothers for everything.
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EPT
