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On November 12 2012 02:19 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. I mean, I guess I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it might be a little oversensitive on the racial undertones considering they could just as easily mean take our country back from the democrats or from this terrible president who happens to be black...I won't deny that part of the GOP simply disrespects Obama, just as you shouldn't deny that Bush was at least as disrespected (some might even argue more). Basically I'm still leaning more towards the birther movement took off more as a protest to the President and anyone racist that has to do with the movement is correlation without causation. If you're going to "protest the President", why would you question his place of birth? His place of birth has nothing to do with his policies. The most radical attacks against Bush, amongst other things, include him being a warmonger and hating black people because of Katrina. But these attacks are all related to his policies and actions. Disputing Obama's place of birth has nothing to do with policies, so it's not just protesting the President. The attack is only possible because he's black and his father is from Kenya.
people accused Bush of planning and executing 9/11. being accused of lying about your place of birth ain't shit compared to that disgusting attack that liberals panned for years.
and to be perfectly honest, Obama loved the birther attacks. he courted them every chance he could by not just releasing his stupid birth certificate (ftr, I have no doubt that he was born in Hawaii, not the point) right away. he knew that conservatives who wanted him gone were going to reach for pretty much anything, and he knew that he could construe the birthers as being racist and then attack the entire GOP using guilt by association. Donald Trump was just dumb enough to fall for it.
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On November 12 2012 02:21 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:06 harlock78 wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. Seriously, be honest with yourself concerning the racism thing. Just go to a less moderated website and read the comments. There is a lot more vitriolic hate toward blacks/hispanics, and it's from republicans. Racist signs at tea party demonstrations, incidents with nooses etc... One recent at the RNC convention, where 2 attendees throwing nuts at black a CNN reporter http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/republican-cnn-attack-animal-peanuts-racist_n_1838249.htmlAnd sadly it is not limited to the base. You may feel the democrats run on an anti white platform by advocating minority rights, but it is not comparable to the historical racism in this country. It is minor and has more to do with the issues of definition of race, colorblindness etc... There is a reason the GOP attracts these people, and it's because 1964 and Goldwater campaign, it wants to appeal to the racist neo confederate south. It rejected the civil right act because it infringes on states rights. If you don't see a historical resonance here you are pretty naive. On your second point about liberty, that is one big problem of the current GOP vs latinao/asian/black vote. Your definition of liberty doesn't resonate with them. Here is a good piece on the Economist about this definition of liberty: http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/08/politics-and-philosophy-racism#commentsI think if the GOP rejects or keep the vocal extremists on leash, they have a lot more potential votes available with independents and moderates. Those voters right now are scared by the attacks on women/minority/gay/workers rights. As well as insulted by the constant insults from GOP voices (51% of takers, lazy with no work ethics etc..,) I don't really see the point of the opinions of democrats and republicans on a graph (that didn't show any shocking data to begin with) on their views towards blacks when 93% of the black community voted democrat this year....so that leaves a whopping 7% (+ the black republicans who voted for obama) of black people to express their opinion of black people from the republican side. Surprise, black people think black people are more hard working and intelligent than non-black people.... I don't think this is even remotely conclusive data on racism (and it only addresses racism towards black people). As far as the libertarian policy on immigration, I can understand why that would be so unpopular among minorities, and it also happens to be one of the few policies I do not agree with Ron Paul (or Rand Paul) on...
The article is not about data on racism. The point is the second part of the article, on the conception of liberty and the articulation of this ideal in our society.
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On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. so it feels like racism to you, and that is enough to make you ignore every fact that shows that it isn't? Allen West is a black man, and a Tea Party favorite. Herman Cain was a Tea Party favorite, and is black. Mia Love is black, and again, a Tea Party favorite. you might be able to point to one or two signs that one or two Tea Party people carried that could actually be construed as racist (not doctored photographs), but then I can point to the thousands upon thousands of blatantly anti-Semitic signs that show up at every single liberal rally. hell yeah we disrespect Obama. respect is earned, and in my opinion, and in the opinion of most conservatives, Obama has done nothing to earn our respect. take our country back is a very old slogan, and you know exactly what it means. it means give power back to the people and states and move it away from the federal government. Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy. you want it to be racism because that allows you to poison the well, and since you base your claim on no evidence, but instead "feelings", there is no disproving your claim. how do I disprove a "feeling" and a "perception"? dollars to dimes I'll find more examples of a liberal screaming "house nigger" than you can of conservatives saying any racial epithet.
Keep on goin on. I'm sure the hispanic and asians will vote for the GOP next time because there really isn't any racism and they just need to get it through their thick skulls.
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As a European, you americans are all nutters. Were you to put Obama and the democratic party (and not change their ideologies) in the almost any european country, they would be decidedly right-wing. As for the racism thing, that's a personal matter and i do not see why it should be included in a political discussion. As far as I am concerned, if a politician is racist, he has no right to be in politics, but so long as there is no hard proof of his antisemitism/anti-negro/anti-any ethnic or cultural minority, he can go on doing what he does.
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On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. After all, Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic. And what should we do about it? Another tax cut.
Spending your way out of debt makes about as much sense as putting out a fire with gasoline in my book. Tax cuts make more sense to me. Give money back to the people so they can invest it in business. This is why I tend to side more with the Republicans than Democrats even though I am neither.
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On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut.
that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich.
Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor.
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On November 12 2012 02:28 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. so it feels like racism to you, and that is enough to make you ignore every fact that shows that it isn't? Allen West is a black man, and a Tea Party favorite. Herman Cain was a Tea Party favorite, and is black. Mia Love is black, and again, a Tea Party favorite. you might be able to point to one or two signs that one or two Tea Party people carried that could actually be construed as racist (not doctored photographs), but then I can point to the thousands upon thousands of blatantly anti-Semitic signs that show up at every single liberal rally. hell yeah we disrespect Obama. respect is earned, and in my opinion, and in the opinion of most conservatives, Obama has done nothing to earn our respect. take our country back is a very old slogan, and you know exactly what it means. it means give power back to the people and states and move it away from the federal government. Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy. you want it to be racism because that allows you to poison the well, and since you base your claim on no evidence, but instead "feelings", there is no disproving your claim. how do I disprove a "feeling" and a "perception"? dollars to dimes I'll find more examples of a liberal screaming "house nigger" than you can of conservatives saying any racial epithet. Keep on goin on. I'm sure the hispanic and asians will vote for the GOP next time because there really isn't any racism and they just need to get it through their thick skulls.
exactly. no need for evidence, because you've got your feeling. and you will paint your political opponent with that brush no matter what they do or say because it is politically expedient. never mind the damage being done to the entire country by that attack, full steam ahead!
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On November 12 2012 02:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:28 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. so it feels like racism to you, and that is enough to make you ignore every fact that shows that it isn't? Allen West is a black man, and a Tea Party favorite. Herman Cain was a Tea Party favorite, and is black. Mia Love is black, and again, a Tea Party favorite. you might be able to point to one or two signs that one or two Tea Party people carried that could actually be construed as racist (not doctored photographs), but then I can point to the thousands upon thousands of blatantly anti-Semitic signs that show up at every single liberal rally. hell yeah we disrespect Obama. respect is earned, and in my opinion, and in the opinion of most conservatives, Obama has done nothing to earn our respect. take our country back is a very old slogan, and you know exactly what it means. it means give power back to the people and states and move it away from the federal government. Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy. you want it to be racism because that allows you to poison the well, and since you base your claim on no evidence, but instead "feelings", there is no disproving your claim. how do I disprove a "feeling" and a "perception"? dollars to dimes I'll find more examples of a liberal screaming "house nigger" than you can of conservatives saying any racial epithet. Keep on goin on. I'm sure the hispanic and asians will vote for the GOP next time because there really isn't any racism and they just need to get it through their thick skulls. exactly. no need for evidence, because you've got your feeling. and you will paint your political opponent with that brush no matter what they do or say because it is politically expedient. never mind the damage being done to the entire country by that attack, full steam ahead!
Yes, what better way to unite the country than paint a majority of one party as racist!
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On November 12 2012 02:31 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. After all, Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic. And what should we do about it? Another tax cut. Spending your way out of debt makes about as much sense as putting out a fire with gasoline in my book. Tax cuts make more sense to me. Give money back to the people so they can invest it in business. This is why I tend to side more with the Republicans than Democrats even though I am neither.
On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut. that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich. Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor.
So you're both going all in with the right wing dogma, that tax cuts are good for the economy. Except there is no evidence of that as this recent CRS report shows: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdf
And there's the recent CBO report on the fiscal cliff, which shows that tax cuts have minimal effects on growth compared to spending as I've already explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=1423#28442
Of course it's not surprising that the party of anti-intellectuals is ignoring the evidence.
Kmillz, you talk about reducing the debt. And how are tax cuts going to reduce the debt? If you're serious about reducing the debt above all else, why don't you call for spending cuts and tax increases? Why don't you embrace the fiscal cliff?
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On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut. that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich. Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor.
You do know that the debt ceiling is an agreement that the US will pay it's debts up to that amount, not raising the debt ceiling as debt increases means the US wishes to default on it's debts, both parities will and have raised the ceiling because not doing so is mentally deficient.
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On November 12 2012 02:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:19 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. I mean, I guess I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it might be a little oversensitive on the racial undertones considering they could just as easily mean take our country back from the democrats or from this terrible president who happens to be black...I won't deny that part of the GOP simply disrespects Obama, just as you shouldn't deny that Bush was at least as disrespected (some might even argue more). Basically I'm still leaning more towards the birther movement took off more as a protest to the President and anyone racist that has to do with the movement is correlation without causation. If you're going to "protest the President", why would you question his place of birth? His place of birth has nothing to do with his policies. The most radical attacks against Bush, amongst other things, include him being a warmonger and hating black people because of Katrina. But these attacks are all related to his policies and actions. Disputing Obama's place of birth has nothing to do with policies, so it's not just protesting the President. The attack is only possible because he's black and his father is from Kenya. people accused Bush of planning and executing 9/11. being accused of lying about your place of birth ain't shit compared to that disgusting attack that liberals panned for years. and to be perfectly honest, Obama loved the birther attacks. he courted them every chance he could by not just releasing his stupid birth certificate (ftr, I have no doubt that he was born in Hawaii, not the point) right away. he knew that conservatives who wanted him gone were going to reach for pretty much anything, and he knew that he could construe the birthers as being racist and then attack the entire GOP using guilt by association. Donald Trump was just dumb enough to fall for it.
Its so hard to watch my party burn being led by people like this 
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Hey, don't blame me for the perceived racism in the GOP. I'm just saying it might do your party good to have some introspection and think about why this perception exists rather than ignoring it.
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On November 12 2012 02:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:19 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:On November 11 2012 15:45 Leporello wrote:
So, yeah, conservative ideology might be great (or not), but their politicians are what matter. And they're awful. If the GOP would elect a candidate to get on stage in a national debate, with a Democrat, and tell America they want to declare fetuses to be human in all cases of conception (we saw a little of that in some State elections this year, to hilarious results), call global-warming a giant conspiracy, cut the Estate Tax and cut down the top income-tax brackets, denounce evolution, denounce homosexuality, denounce Social Security and Medicare, make it easier for people to buy more assault weapons, etc. -- then I will vote for that person purely for their honesty, even though I'd be disagreeing with everything they're saying. But it'll never happen, because conservative ideology, even in at its most tepid, is currently not at all what America wants.
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. I mean, I guess I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it might be a little oversensitive on the racial undertones considering they could just as easily mean take our country back from the democrats or from this terrible president who happens to be black...I won't deny that part of the GOP simply disrespects Obama, just as you shouldn't deny that Bush was at least as disrespected (some might even argue more). Basically I'm still leaning more towards the birther movement took off more as a protest to the President and anyone racist that has to do with the movement is correlation without causation. If you're going to "protest the President", why would you question his place of birth? His place of birth has nothing to do with his policies. The most radical attacks against Bush, amongst other things, include him being a warmonger and hating black people because of Katrina. But these attacks are all related to his policies and actions. Disputing Obama's place of birth has nothing to do with policies, so it's not just protesting the President. The attack is only possible because he's black and his father is from Kenya. people accused Bush of planning and executing 9/11. being accused of lying about your place of birth ain't shit compared to that disgusting attack that liberals panned for years.
This is pretty ridiculous. You're comparing the actions of a bunch of random assholes on the internet (9/11 Truthers) to the widespread attacks on Obama's citizenship from major politicians (from Bachmann all the way up to Romney), prominent conservative figures (Trump), and key conservative media outlets (Fox, Drudge, etc.).
Somewhere out there, there is a group of people saying stupid, hateful shit. They don't have any power, and they don't matter. Birtherism, on the other hand, was a concerted effort by major factions in the conservative movement and the Republican party to delegitimize the first black president through a very thinly veiled racist attack. There's really no comparison.
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On November 12 2012 02:41 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. After all, Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic. And what should we do about it? Another tax cut. Spending your way out of debt makes about as much sense as putting out a fire with gasoline in my book. Tax cuts make more sense to me. Give money back to the people so they can invest it in business. This is why I tend to side more with the Republicans than Democrats even though I am neither. Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut. that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich. Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor. So you're both going all in with the right wing dogma, that tax cuts are good for the economy. Except there is no evidence of that and this recent CRS report shows: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdfAnd there's the CBO report of the fiscal cliff, which shows that tax cuts have minimal effect of the economy compared to spending as I've explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=1423#28442Of course it's not surprising that the party of anti-intellectuals is ignore the evidence. Kmillz, you talk about reducing the debt. And how is tax cuts are going to reduce the debt? If you're serious about reduce the debt, above all else, why don't you call for spending cuts and tax increases?
I think we need spending cuts but definitely not tax increases. Let's not forget, Obama's in favor of increasing the capital gains tax, even if it generated less tax revenue for no better reason than fairness.
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On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:
ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor.
Also, define specifically what you mean and show me the evidence.
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On November 12 2012 02:45 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:41 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. After all, Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic. And what should we do about it? Another tax cut. Spending your way out of debt makes about as much sense as putting out a fire with gasoline in my book. Tax cuts make more sense to me. Give money back to the people so they can invest it in business. This is why I tend to side more with the Republicans than Democrats even though I am neither. On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut. that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich. Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor. So you're both going all in with the right wing dogma, that tax cuts are good for the economy. Except there is no evidence of that and this recent CRS report shows: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdfAnd there's the CBO report of the fiscal cliff, which shows that tax cuts have minimal effect of the economy compared to spending as I've explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=1423#28442Of course it's not surprising that the party of anti-intellectuals is ignore the evidence. Kmillz, you talk about reducing the debt. And how is tax cuts are going to reduce the debt? If you're serious about reduce the debt, above all else, why don't you call for spending cuts and tax increases? I think we need spending cuts but definitely not tax increases. Let's not forget, Obama's in favor of increasing the capital gains tax, even if it generated less tax revenue for no better reason than fairness.
Yeah, let's ignore all the evidence and stick to Republican ideas.
Definitely no tax increases, because "I'm really serious about the the deficit" and Republicans believe in tax cuts. Makes sense.
Let's just ignore the CBO report which shows that stopping tax cuts for the rich have half the economic impact as spending cuts.
The anti-intellectualism here is palpable.
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On November 12 2012 02:45 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:41 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. After all, Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic. And what should we do about it? Another tax cut. Spending your way out of debt makes about as much sense as putting out a fire with gasoline in my book. Tax cuts make more sense to me. Give money back to the people so they can invest it in business. This is why I tend to side more with the Republicans than Democrats even though I am neither. On November 12 2012 02:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 02:26 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Obama is a very left-wing President, to the point where he is more concerned about taxing the rich than fixing the economy.
This is hilarious coming from Republicans, whose only economic policy is giving tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the rich. Regardless of whether it is counter-cyclical or pro-cyclical, tax cuts are the solution for any state of the economy. The CBO shows that tax cuts have little affect on growth compared to spending, the Congressional Research Office finds no correlation between tax cuts and economic growth, but let's ignore all the evidence, because it disagrees with Republican dogma. Republicans are so anti-intellectual that they were utterly shocked when Romney lost, since they ignored all the evidence then. Gotta of love the hypocrisy when they talk about the debt being catastrophic, and what should we do about it? Another tax cut. that is a misunderstanding of how taxes work, and also betrays the inner feeling you have. it's not about fixing the economy, it's about punishing the rich. Republicans want to cut spending and simplify the tax-code, then cut taxes to spur economic growth. Democrats just want to raise the debt ceiling again, and again, and again, and again. ignoring the clear fact that the rich will pass any tax off onto the poor. So you're both going all in with the right wing dogma, that tax cuts are good for the economy. Except there is no evidence of that and this recent CRS report shows: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdfAnd there's the CBO report of the fiscal cliff, which shows that tax cuts have minimal effect of the economy compared to spending as I've explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330491¤tpage=1423#28442Of course it's not surprising that the party of anti-intellectuals is ignore the evidence. Kmillz, you talk about reducing the debt. And how is tax cuts are going to reduce the debt? If you're serious about reduce the debt, above all else, why don't you call for spending cuts and tax increases? I think we need spending cuts but definitely not tax increases. Let's not forget, Obama's in favor of increasing the capital gains tax, even if it generated less tax revenue for no better reason than fairness.
K let me phrase it like this, you're in favor of spending cuts, so you're in favor of a recession, alot of what the US governments spends is tied directed to the US econ be it defense or anything else. Making deep spending cuts to make up the budget difference without tax increases will trigger a recession, any economist would support this.
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On November 12 2012 02:43 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:
[quote]
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. I mean, I guess I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it might be a little oversensitive on the racial undertones considering they could just as easily mean take our country back from the democrats or from this terrible president who happens to be black...I won't deny that part of the GOP simply disrespects Obama, just as you shouldn't deny that Bush was at least as disrespected (some might even argue more). Basically I'm still leaning more towards the birther movement took off more as a protest to the President and anyone racist that has to do with the movement is correlation without causation. If you're going to "protest the President", why would you question his place of birth? His place of birth has nothing to do with his policies. The most radical attacks against Bush, amongst other things, include him being a warmonger and hating black people because of Katrina. But these attacks are all related to his policies and actions. Disputing Obama's place of birth has nothing to do with policies, so it's not just protesting the President. The attack is only possible because he's black and his father is from Kenya. people accused Bush of planning and executing 9/11. being accused of lying about your place of birth ain't shit compared to that disgusting attack that liberals panned for years. This is pretty ridiculous. You're comparing the actions of a bunch of random assholes on the internet (9/11 Truthers) to the widespread attacks on Obama's citizenship from major politicians (from Bachmann all the way up to Romney), prominent conservative figures (Trump), and key conservative media outlets (Fox, Drudge, etc.). Somewhere out there, there is a group of people saying stupid, hateful shit. They don't have any power, and they don't matter. Birtherism, on the other hand, was a concerted effort by major factions in the conservative movement and the Republican party to delegitimize the first black president through a very thinly veiled racist attack. There's really no comparison.
Are you kidding? You really think that people thinking you aren't American is more damning than being part of 3,000 Americans being murdered? This isn't a group of people saying "stupid, hateful shit" that don't matter, there are millions of people who legitimately think George W. Bush was part of the 9/11 plot.
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On November 12 2012 02:43 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 paralleluniverse wrote:On November 12 2012 02:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:53 white_horse wrote:On November 12 2012 01:31 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 01:26 ZeaL. wrote:On November 12 2012 01:05 kmillz wrote:On November 12 2012 00:43 JinDesu wrote:On November 12 2012 00:12 D10 wrote:
How do you view the young turks ? Annoying and liberally biased. At least the Daily Show is funny and is less overbearing. Feel the same way. I love when he pokes fun at Bill O'Reilly, even though on the issues I tend to agree with Bill a tiny bit more. I think Bill just makes an idiot out of himself and makes me wish I didn't agree with his main point. On November 12 2012 00:29 white_horse wrote:On November 11 2012 21:33 kmillz wrote:
[quote]
It saddens me that this is how the GOP is seen. Funny..I once considered myself a Republican and a Catholic and now I am neither. Didn't vote for Romney even though I think Obama's policies are terrible..its like I wanted to like him so much, but he literally made it impossible. He got whooped anyway, not like my one vote would've changed that..and now I get to have a clean conscience knowing I didn't vote for either evil! :D Well its kind of obvious why they are seen that way. The GOP has been jerked around by its tea party. The GOP doesn't just disagree with obama. They disrespect him. And I think part of the reason why is because he's black. Any republican will vehemently deny that they are racist if you ask them about it, but I think part of the reason of so much vitriol coming from the GOP is because obama is black. Accusing the president of not being born in the US even after proof is posted, accusing him to be some evil muslim, trump offering money to the public to uncover "secret' information about obama, accusing him of rigging the unemployment statistics for political gain, etc etc. Really now. I wonder how far the GOP would have gone with this kind of stuff had obama been white. These kind of antics scare away decent people who are only interested in whats good for the country. Racism is a two-way street, and to suggest that only vitriol is coming from the GOP because obama is black, but yet disregard the possibility that vitriol could come from the other side because Mitt Romney is white is just silly....Unless you have some evidence that the GOP is more racist to black people than the Democratic party is racist towards white people, I would suggest you stop listening to Chris Matthews so much. You really think the birther movement started because he is black? Let's not forget: Some bloggers are questioning John McCain's right to run for the presidency on the basis of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. Not EVERYTHING is about race....seriously. I'm not really that sympathetic towards any disrespect Obama gets after what George W. Bush endured. Not saying he was a good President...but as far as I'm concerned Obama is just as bad in the issues that concern me (liberty) and I can understand why half the country would have little respect for either of them. My honest opinion is that yes, there are people who are racist and simply do not like Obama for that reason (and again..its a 2-way street! Just ask Jay-Z why he isn't voting for smaller government), but I do not think it is the MAIN reason for the harshness towards him...I think that more stems from disagreement on policy. I wonder why a few bloggers questioned McCain's birth. Maybe because he was actually born outside the US and at the time there was a lot of questions already being directed at one particular candidate's location at birth. That didn't last very long because there's basically no proof to show that McCain, while born in another country, is not a US citizen. A few years after the release of both his short and long-form birth certificates and there's still people who think he's Kenyan. And these aren't just uneducated voters either, there are plenty of GOP politicians (mostly at the state level) who express the same sentiment. Things got quieter after the release of his long form birth certificate + Osama's death but the sentiment is still there. And D's racist against white people? lol. I guess that explains why Republicans won the white vote, they just felt disenfranchised and were afraid of those racist minorities. + Show Spoiler + Calling the Republican party as a whole racist to black people is just as ridiculous as calling the Democratic party as a whole racist to white people. Why do idiots thinking he is from Kenya have to be racist idiots? I don't get the connection. Because it feels like dog-whistle racism. The protests over obama's birthplace itself isn't ncessarily a problem. It's a problem when clear evidence has been made to the public and people still demand proof over obama's birthplace. That suggests anger toward obama that isn't just political. The GOP as a whole is definitely not racist. But there is a significant part of the GOP that certainly carries closeted racism, especially the tea party wing. Part of the GOP simply disrespects obama. Don't deny it. When obama was elected, republicans started to say "take our country back" as a slogan for the 2012 election campaign. Take our country back from whom? Are you suggesting a non-American is sitting in the white house? Who is controlling the white house such that we have to "take it back"? It doesn't sound like racism to white americans, but to minorities and whites who have experienced racism or know enough about it can tell. The GOP needs to marginalize its extreme elements and become center-right enough to become a legitimate opposition to democrats or else the left is just going to run amok without an alternative to keep it in check. I mean, I guess I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it might be a little oversensitive on the racial undertones considering they could just as easily mean take our country back from the democrats or from this terrible president who happens to be black...I won't deny that part of the GOP simply disrespects Obama, just as you shouldn't deny that Bush was at least as disrespected (some might even argue more). Basically I'm still leaning more towards the birther movement took off more as a protest to the President and anyone racist that has to do with the movement is correlation without causation. If you're going to "protest the President", why would you question his place of birth? His place of birth has nothing to do with his policies. The most radical attacks against Bush, amongst other things, include him being a warmonger and hating black people because of Katrina. But these attacks are all related to his policies and actions. Disputing Obama's place of birth has nothing to do with policies, so it's not just protesting the President. The attack is only possible because he's black and his father is from Kenya. people accused Bush of planning and executing 9/11. being accused of lying about your place of birth ain't shit compared to that disgusting attack that liberals panned for years. This is pretty ridiculous. You're comparing the actions of a bunch of random assholes on the internet (9/11 Truthers) to the widespread attacks on Obama's citizenship from major politicians (from Bachmann all the way up to Romney), prominent conservative figures (Trump), and key conservative media outlets (Fox, Drudge, etc.). Somewhere out there, there is a group of people saying stupid, hateful shit. They don't have any power, and they don't matter. Birtherism, on the other hand, was a concerted effort by major factions in the conservative movement and the Republican party to delegitimize the first black president through a very thinly veiled racist attack. There's really no comparison.
9/11 truthers, at one point, made up 1/3 of the country.
never once heard Romney or Bachmann attack Obama's citizenship. would definitely like to see some evidence of that. no Fox reporter or opinion guy has ever pressed that point of view either, definitely want some evidence of that claim.
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