EPTPresident Obama Re-Elected - Page 1439
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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here. The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301 | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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Falling
Canada11264 Posts
Are there some number on that? Because I'm rather curious. I just can't believe the tax breaks are sufficient enough to be the prime motivator. Although, it may be enough to allow a couple realize their dream of having more than one child. It certainly isn't in Canada. I know a lot of big families and come from a large family, but our fertility rate in 2010 was 1.63. The only reason we have a growing population is due to immigration. | ||
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
On November 11 2012 09:57 sam!zdat wrote: yes, it's true, the democrats are better at effective bribery, the republicans are better at cohesive ideology I couldn't help myself  | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On November 11 2012 09:57 sam!zdat wrote: yes, it's true, the democrats are better at bribery, the republicans are better at ideology Can we begin to ban really stupid posts? http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/08/opinion/marshall-gop/index.html One article but pretty much everyone on Earth disagrees with your riidiculous assertion that the Republicans have better ideologies | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On November 11 2012 09:57 Falling wrote: @SayGen Are there some number on that? Because I'm rather curious. I just can't believe the tax breaks are sufficient enough to be the prime motivator. It may be enough to allow a couple realize their dream of having more than one child. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Ten-Facts-about-the-Child-Tax-Credit there are more rebates on top of that such as most of their income taxes being refunded if they make less than a certain amount. don't take this as me agreeing with saygen because i think he hasn't a clue about living in the real world raising children on minimal wages. it's rough and i watched my mom work her ass off to raise us and it still wasn't enough. my dad was disabled 100% while serving in the us army and we relied on that measly welfare check. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On November 11 2012 09:54 sc2superfan101 wrote: but what exactly was ridiculous about the arguments? if it was only the assumption of what they are intending, than the logic of the arguments is applicable, by your own admission. looking at the evidence: how many votes has the Republican support of the military gotten them? how many votes has the Democrat support of welfare gotten them? I think we can all agree that there are more welfare recipients than military members or military industry shareholders. now, if we're talking about funding... yeah, that changes things. tbh, I should back off a bit. there are a shitload of Republicans who are only interested in buying votes with their support of specific policies (tax cuts, military, ect.) my natural partisan self is finding it hard to open my eyes to the fact that the GOP is as much a bunch of snakes as anyone else. so in a way, you are right, and I am wrong. both parties buy votes, the Democrats are just much, much, much better at it. Well since the whole crux of your argument was the Republicans did not buy any votes and now you are talking about how democrats bought more. I DECLARE VICTORY. Anyways, I don't understand your cynicism, why do you think the Democrats are "buying" poor votes and Republicans are "buying" military people votes? What makes you not believe Democrats envision a society without the poor starving/freezing to death at the cost of the riches' wealth, or that Republicans want to beef up the military at the cost of social projects? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:06 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Can we begin to ban really stupid posts? http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/08/opinion/marshall-gop/index.html One article but pretty much everyone on Earth disagrees with your riidiculous assertion that the Republicans have better ideologies he's saying that republicans are better at appealing to ideologues. waging ideological warfare etc. edit: nvm i give up. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
I'll happily throw down on ideology, and I'm used to everybody disagreeing with me. edit: @below, no sorry I'm totally serious  edit: haha my support is eroding before my very eyes | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:06 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Can we begin to ban really stupid posts? http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/08/opinion/marshall-gop/index.html One article but pretty much everyone on Earth disagrees with your riidiculous assertion that the Republicans have better ideologies Eh. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13735 Posts
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XoXiDe
United States620 Posts
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html?ref=us + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gDIZ5.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/urn88.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ga3nq.png) | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:08 oneofthem wrote: he's saying that republicans are better at appealing to ideologues. waging ideological warfare etc. edit: nvm i give up. I read it as republicans having better ideologies, not.. waging ideological warfare? And wouldn't this not be the case since everyone seems to think Republican ideologies are a joke such that they'd be rather bad at selling their ticket. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:11 XoXiDe wrote: This link below is pretty sweet, I'm not sure "buying" votes with welfare is a winning strategy, also a large amount of people don't vote making less than $50k. Education and income have a positive relationship with likelihood to vote. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html?ref=us + Show Spoiler + Yeah, it is great irony that the biggest welfare states are the most Republican. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
I'm not valorizing their ideology, I'm saying it's effective at mobilizing their base. left ideology is in utter shambles, identity politics etc., total fragmentation. Republicans are much better harnessing their ideology to mobilize their base, it's just that their ideology is a couple of paradigm shifts out of date and the world is starting to catch up to them edit: the point is that BECAUSE the republicans are so much better at ideology, the obsolescence of their ideology poses such a great threat to the stability of their party | ||
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Falling
Canada11264 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:07 heliusx wrote: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Ten-Facts-about-the-Child-Tax-Credit there are more rebates on top of that such as most of their income taxes being refunded if they make less than a certain amount. don't take this as me agreeing with saygen because i think he hasn't a clue about living in the real world raising children on minimal wages. it's rough and i watched my mom work her ass off to raise us and it still wasn't enough. my dad was disabled 100% while serving in the us army and we relied on that measly welfare check. $1000 tax credit/ child? Yeah, I think that's pretty comparable to Canada. Income tax refund for low wages- we have that too. The tax credit is helpful to survive, but that's not going to make poor families pop out a bunch of babies to start rolling in the dough. | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On November 11 2012 09:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I would argue that the reason most people are "poor" is because of the divide between the wealthy and the rich. Of course you'll get the argument "But they're bums and beggars! they stay on welfare to get money for free1 but the majority of poor people are working as hard as they can to make ends meet. The problem is equalizing shares of wealth, not regulating production of babies from the non-wealthy. I'm all for abortions, but not for such a ridiculous reason as to negate people the ability to procreate freely. I would disagree, I think it has to do with parenting and work ethics. Take a look at poor people- say a 40 year old man. Ask him about high school. Did he get a 4.0? Did he have a part time job Did he have parents who made sure be obeyed authority (no drugs, stealing, etc) I bet the answer is no. While there are exceptions to the rule of course, I'm talking only in generalities. Also I don't know any poor people who work really hard least on the East Coast. Don't get me wrong, doing remedial labor is offputting for many Americans who are too 'proud' to get their hands dirty, but I'm not one of em. I got no problem with it, I started off in Aircraft Maintence--lube, hydro, oil, fuel not fun stuff and very dirty. So what some consider hardwork, isn't hard work to me. Then again what I used to do for a living was middle class in America, but our Russian and Japanese counterparts did it for much less. I can assure you if you do hard work, you are getting alot more than ends meet. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:11 XoXiDe wrote: This link below is pretty sweet, I'm not sure "buying" votes with welfare is a winning strategy, also a large amount of people don't vote making less than $50k. Education and income have a positive relationship with likelihood to vote. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html?ref=us + Show Spoiler + Education also has a positive correlation with voting for Democrats hmmmm... | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:08 Feartheguru wrote: Well since the whole crux of your argument was the Republicans did not buy any votes and now you are talking about how democrats bought more. I DECLARE VICTORY. Anyways, I don't understand your cynicism, why do you think the Democrats are "buying" poor votes and Republicans are "buying" military people votes? What makes you not believe Democrats envision a society without the poor starving/freezing to death at the cost of the riches' wealth, or that Republicans want to beef up the military at the cost of social projects? Victory is yours. part of my cynicism is the fact that on some metrics, personal wealth has fallen. I think the Democrat and Republican base are honest, hard-working, and really believe that their polices will benefit the nation. the politicians don't seem to hold themselves very strongly to those ideals though. I understand that compromise is necessary, but I am somewhat of a moralist. I would usually take nothing over something if something required me to sacrifice a principle. some people say that is a good thing in politics, most don't. I just find it hard to believe that Obama or Boehner give a shit about the countries well-being. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On November 11 2012 10:14 sam!zdat wrote: the problem with republican ideology is that it is too strong, exclusive, mythic-participatory, etc. I'm not valorizing their ideology, I'm saying it's effective at mobilizing their base. left ideology is in utter shambles, identity politics etc., total fragmentation. Republicans are much better harnessing their ideology to mobilize their base, it's just that their ideology is a couple of paradigm shifts out of date and the world is starting to catch up to them Not necessarily a bad thing. As a pragmatist, a party that isn't dominated by ideology appeals greatly to me. In fact, people who put ideology before facts irk me to no end. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
but i won't pursue this further maybe | ||
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