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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 1195

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
November 05 2012 17:37 GMT
#23881
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


Obama is only "left" in the US I'm afraid. I think the problem might be on your end.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 17:42:10
November 05 2012 17:37 GMT
#23882
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Adila
Profile Joined April 2010
United States874 Posts
November 05 2012 17:41 GMT
#23883
On November 06 2012 02:37 RavenLoud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


Obama is only "left" in the US I'm afraid. I think the problem might be on your end.


That's what we call American Exceptionalism.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 05 2012 17:41 GMT
#23884
Well, last CNN poll was pretty encouraging. http://washingtonexaminer.com/romney-winning-independents-59-35/article/2512610#.UJfn3MXA-4d]CNN poll[/url] shows Romney with a huge lead in independents, the big reason swing states are that way. They give the Democrats a +11 edge in the sample to get a tie at 49-49, which is ludicrous. It hasn't been that way in the past, And Republicans have been more motivated to vote, as the 2010 election shows. Give dems a more modest advantage, the +2 to +7 advantage, and its pretty good news for Team Romney.

That's my take on it. Republican turnout will be better than polls are predicting now, and independents will break for Romney. R takes Florida and Minnesota. Virginia and Ohio, I can't really say. I'm calling Romney for winner of popular vote (insignificant to election results).
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 05 2012 17:44 GMT
#23885
On November 06 2012 02:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDxOSjgl5Z4

if we can't convince them we'll outbreed them!
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 17:49:22
November 05 2012 17:48 GMT
#23886
On November 06 2012 02:41 Danglars wrote:
Well, last CNN poll was pretty encouraging. http://washingtonexaminer.com/romney-winning-independents-59-35/article/2512610#.UJfn3MXA-4d]CNN poll shows Romney with a huge lead in independents, the big reason swing states are that way. They give the Democrats a +11 edge in the sample to get a tie at 49-49, which is ludicrous. It hasn't been that way in the past, And Republicans have been more motivated to vote, as the 2010 election shows. Give dems a more modest advantage, the +2 to +7 advantage, and its pretty good news for Team Romney.

That's my take on it. Republican turnout will be better than polls are predicting now, and independents will break for Romney. R takes Florida and Minnesota. Virginia and Ohio, I can't really say. I'm calling Romney for winner of popular vote (insignificant to election results).
[/url]

Gallup's party ID polls have shown that since '08 a substantial number of Republicans have de-identified and respond to questions saying they're independents. This 5% increase in conservative independents, all of whom are clearly favoring one candidate, skews those numbers.

This is most likely why you're seeing a bigger gap than in '08 in party ID AND why you're seeing Romney getting an edge in independents while the election is tied/polls are showing Obama advantage. The minority vote turnout is going to be preeeety big, and I don't think enough Republicans are voting for Romney instead of against Obama to generate huge turnout.

Any poll where the popular vote is tied is bad news for Romney.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
November 05 2012 17:48 GMT
#23887
I'm so glad this shit is almost over. Too stressful
=)=
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 17:50:32
November 05 2012 17:49 GMT
#23888
On November 06 2012 01:59 Zaqwert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:42 JDub wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:30 bOneSeven wrote:
so...with Obama we slowly go to our demise....and with Romney we do it faster....who to pick.....who to pick.....

But seriously, can anyone reasonable convince me that voting matters in this case? They're both funded by basically the same guys, so the special interests stay the same under each administration....and since special interest dictates most of what happens...Sure you can read thousands of pages to understand why this would kind of matter....but it's wishy washy mostly, not things that really happen, and the fact that something as simple as "power corrupts" is a constant and powerful equation in our political systems.....doesn't seem to tell me that it matters where you vote for the lefty guy or the whacky flipflopper guy.

While a lot of things will be the same regardless of who our president is, there are certain issues where which candidate wins does matter a lot.

1) Disaster relief. Compare the federal response to Sandy under Obama to the response to Katrina under Bush. Romney doesn't believe the federal government should play a big role (or any role) in disaster relief.

2) Tax rates. If you are in the upper 1% then you're taxes will rise under Obama and fall under Romney. Romney claims he won't raise taxes on the middle class but his tax plan is also not mathematically feasible, so taxes on middle class families will rise under Romney or the deficit will balloon.

3) Climate change. Republicans aren't committed to doing anything about it, whereas Democrats are. If you think it's all a big hoax by the entire scientific community, or if you don't give a shit about the future of humanity, then vote for Romney.

4) Women's and minority's rights. If the right to choose for women or the right to get married for gays are important to you, then you should vote for Obama.

5) Foreign policy. Our president in many ways shapes the way the rest of the world thinks about us, and as commander in chief makes a lot of big decisions about our military actions. War is not to be taken lightly, given the vast toll it takes on the members of our military while in action and when they get home from war. I'm not too sure what we'd get foreign policy-wise with a Romney/Ryan administration, since they had been very critical of Obama's foreign policy for months, and then Romney did a 180 in the 3rd debate and started agreeing with most of what Obama has done in foreign policy.

6) Healthcare. If Obamacare is repealed as Romney has said he wants, then millions of people will lose their insurance and people with pre-existing conditions will no longer be able to get insurance. It's unclear how Romney will deal with these issues.


1. Private charities provide WAY more actual assistances than the feds after disasters. For every $1 the government spends fruitfully they piss about $100 away. Besides, FEMA is a drop in the bucket, much like PBS, it's just pointless demagoguery to talk about it either of them.

2. The problem is SPENDING. The deficit and the debt have been caused by massive overspending, no amount of tax increases will help, no amount of tax cuts will hurt, without aggressive spending cuts the US budget is foobar'ed.

3. Climate Change, formerly known as global warming, fomerly known as global cooling, formerly known as some other made up term, is make believe and nothing more than an excuse for expansion of government power. For the government to increase control of the economy and have more power over individual's lives they have invented a fake crisis to combat.

4. Aboriton has been legal for 20+ years and will be never be illegal again in the US. Using silly scare tactics to try to dupe naive women into voting for your side is rather silly. I'm pretty sure we had a Republican president and Congress for 6 yeras and guess what, abortion is every bit as legal now as it was then.

5. Obama's foreign policy has been identical to Bush's. Neither Romney or Obama have much of a foreign policy difference at all.

6. The government will destroy health care. Health care is a market just like any other, and the government meddling in it will simply distort it and make it worse. Our country is damn near broke and the last thing this sinking swimmer needs is another 50 ton entitlement program strapped to it's back.


Your arguments are nothing more than pandering to poor people and special interest groups and promising them goodies or scaring them into supporting your side.

No where do you mention things like hard work, economic growth, individual liberty, etc. These are the things that make a country great. Not electing politicans who will steal from others to give to you. As the number of parasites grow, eventually the host will die.

1. Perhaps long-term in the aftermath of a disaster that's correct, FEMA and other government agencies have the capacity to mobilise to deal with such a situation in the immediate aftermath.

2. Spending is an issue, but balancing the budget means looking at the revenue side of things as well. The Republicans by and large have only promoted slashing spending, often that which aids the lower socio-economic class. All well and good, but the political establishment has to look at the bloated, bloated cash-sieve that is defence spending before complaining about government waste.

3. Climate change is a pretty easy enough phenomenon to understand. The only reason the terms change are changeable because people are stupid and go 'global warming hur hur, why is it snowing?'. To be fair, I do think this is a private sector issue and they can deal with it in time.

4. Nobody would be scaremongering if it wasn't for Republican rhetoric about repealing Roe v Wade. This is manifesting itself in the scramble in the primaries to get the 'Tea Party's' support and the Christian right-wingers. I don't personally feel that many of the Republicans actually want to remove women's reproductive rights, but have to claim they would for political expediency's sake. It's the political environment with a much more visible right-wing presence that causes an equivalent reaction from anyone who is to the left of that.

5. Yes except Romney's European excursion was pretty disastrous. Say what you like about Obama but he does play the part of a statesman well. I don't see Romney being too big a departure in terms of his policy and general positions though.

6. Healthcare isn't a market just because you say it is. Other forms of healthcare work perfectly well in other parts of the world including *gasp* Europe. If the private market was so efficient, why is healthcare in the US havemore expensive per-person expenditure and worse outcomes than other systems of healthcare?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 17:55:37
November 05 2012 17:52 GMT
#23889
2. The problem is SPENDING. The deficit and the debt have been caused by massive overspending, no amount of tax increases will help, no amount of tax cuts will hurt, without aggressive spending cuts the US budget is foobar'ed.

Its a 2 way medal.
The deficit and debt has indeed been caused by massive (over)spending but you all got something in return for all this spending.
This positive return is easily overlooked and people only see the "negative" side of it, the debt and deficit and not the positive side (increased economic activity,increased consumption)
Realy smart people run the government and the finances and i am sure the return they got is "worth" alot more then the debt and deficit. else they would not have gone into debt in the first place.
I dont think the usa consumer economy could handle austerity in anny reasonable way.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada705 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 17:56:46
November 05 2012 17:55 GMT
#23890
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


America has a very unrealistic view of what left is. They call Obama a communist, a socialist, a Maoist, a Leninist, a Marxist etc. etc. Obama is very much centrist.

On November 06 2012 01:59 Fischbacher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.

I would also point out that Obama is very much a right winger from a Canadian POV, too. Obamacare in particulare would be considered extremist (as in far right) in Canada, and even our Conservative party "evolved" before he did on gay marriage.


Lol, no he isn't. Harper is further right than Obama.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
RJGooner
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2076 Posts
November 05 2012 17:55 GMT
#23891
Election day almost here. Although I have to admit that I'll be more concerned with how my state proposition votes work out rather than the actual presidential election itself.
#1 Jaehoon Fan! 김재훈 화팅!
bOneSeven
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Romania685 Posts
November 05 2012 17:56 GMT
#23892
On November 06 2012 01:42 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:30 bOneSeven wrote:
so...with Obama we slowly go to our demise....and with Romney we do it faster....who to pick.....who to pick.....

But seriously, can anyone reasonable convince me that voting matters in this case? They're both funded by basically the same guys, so the special interests stay the same under each administration....and since special interest dictates most of what happens...Sure you can read thousands of pages to understand why this would kind of matter....but it's wishy washy mostly, not things that really happen, and the fact that something as simple as "power corrupts" is a constant and powerful equation in our political systems.....doesn't seem to tell me that it matters where you vote for the lefty guy or the whacky flipflopper guy.

While a lot of things will be the same regardless of who our president is, there are certain issues where which candidate wins does matter a lot.

1) Disaster relief. Compare the federal response to Sandy under Obama to the response to Katrina under Bush. Romney doesn't believe the federal government should play a big role (or any role) in disaster relief.

2) Tax rates. If you are in the upper 1% then you're taxes will rise under Obama and fall under Romney. Romney claims he won't raise taxes on the middle class but his tax plan is also not mathematically feasible, so taxes on middle class families will rise under Romney or the deficit will balloon.

3) Climate change. Republicans aren't committed to doing anything about it, whereas Democrats are. If you think it's all a big hoax by the entire scientific community, or if you don't give a shit about the future of humanity, then vote for Romney.

4) Women's and minority's rights. If the right to choose for women or the right to get married for gays are important to you, then you should vote for Obama.

5) Foreign policy. Our president in many ways shapes the way the rest of the world thinks about us, and as commander in chief makes a lot of big decisions about our military actions. War is not to be taken lightly, given the vast toll it takes on the members of our military while in action and when they get home from war. I'm not too sure what we'd get foreign policy-wise with a Romney/Ryan administration, since they had been very critical of Obama's foreign policy for months, and then Romney did a 180 in the 3rd debate and started agreeing with most of what Obama has done in foreign policy.

6) Healthcare. If Obamacare is repealed as Romney has said he wants, then millions of people will lose their insurance and people with pre-existing conditions will no longer be able to get insurance. It's unclear how Romney will deal with these issues.


1. No idea about this....You seem to be right about this, however I think the president is not 100% here.


2. Tax rates are weird. Ideally low taxes will increase business which should help everybody...however if we compare the elite guys salaries with the common guy... And he is not working much less as well, it's just that the elite guy was smarter or more vicious in some sense - he shouldn't get payed more than enough to have a big house, cool car, money for any health expense, supporting family and maybe a few holidays in cool areas around the world ( having 6 humongous houses, 10 private jets...etc etc seem to be so horrible I don't even want to talk about what goes through a man's mind of that kind ). Also you can take Sweden for example and say: yes, it's a good idea, however they have way way way way better training out there if they want to work in the public sector
Did you know that for example if you wanted to be a cop you needed 5 years of really good training ? And only about 2-5% of the applicants get the job of a policeman ?

3. Climate ???? You would probably have to be a genius to understand all that stuff because it's hard not to fall under weird ideology ( can take my political science teacher for example, he went whacky green ideological after taking many courses in ecology in Canada ) and have an objective point of view of what's happening, and if we can do anything about it.

Can I disagree with you and say: NO, what WE do does not matter to the planet ? Did WE "the people" drop over 3k nuclear bombs to see what happens ? Are WE responsible of the oil spils in the ocean ? Are WE responsible of all the horrible ways of getting resources and dealing with waste ? No,no,no....all of the guys who "ruin" the planet are in bed with the US government and the EU even.

Out of this, I would support that whacky guy who said climate change is a hoax...sure it's most likely real, but the solution to it won't help our cause ( or the popular solution for it ).

4. Women's right ? That's ridiculuos, we live in the 21st century, that's not an issue anymore as it used to be, we have constant change in the positive about it. Gay's rights ? I don't care about gay's having the right to get married, I care about them not being beaten, mocked or humiliated in public by imbecils - that's an issue the government can't help - it's the community of people who must try to place empathy in human beings. After this social thing gets changes, I'm sure all gay couple will be able to get married since they will have no opposition on this issue.

5. Foreign policy is important, however Romney seems eager to go war with Iran, while Obama seems to be slowly pressured into going there, and I think it's inevitable even for him. If you don't want to go war with Iran, everyone needs to rally and assemble against such decision....EVERYONE...Apparently when bushed had 2/3 population against staying in Iraq didn't matter. I guess in 90% case it would be fairly different...

6. It's not the best healthcare...Compare it with the one in Germany or Sweden for example....

Planet earth is blue and there's nothing I can do
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 05 2012 17:57 GMT
#23893
a familiar target is to blame the 47% for the deficit, probably a new code word for welfare moms or something of that sort, now with seniors thrown in. but the right has always blamed welfare spending for the deficit when it is but a small part.

let's be serious here. medical costs are up because of the medical insurance industry. obama wanted to cut that, but without enough conviction.

the larger problem is the trillions of tax expenditures. it is crony capitalism and corporate subsidies through the tax code.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6261 Posts
November 05 2012 18:01 GMT
#23894
On November 06 2012 02:55 sevencck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


America has a very unrealistic view of what left is. They call Obama a communist, a socialist, a Maoist, a Leninist, a Marxist etc. etc. Obama is very much centrist.

Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:59 Fischbacher wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.

I would also point out that Obama is very much a right winger from a Canadian POV, too. Obamacare in particulare would be considered extremist (as in far right) in Canada, and even our Conservative party "evolved" before he did on gay marriage.


Lol, no he isn't. Harper is further right than Obama.


I agree with you on Obama being centrist. People saying he's right wing for a European are exagerating, atleast in the political arena in the Netherlands I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe.
sevencck
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada705 Posts
November 05 2012 18:02 GMT
#23895
On November 06 2012 03:01 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 02:55 sevencck wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


America has a very unrealistic view of what left is. They call Obama a communist, a socialist, a Maoist, a Leninist, a Marxist etc. etc. Obama is very much centrist.

On November 06 2012 01:59 Fischbacher wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.

I would also point out that Obama is very much a right winger from a Canadian POV, too. Obamacare in particulare would be considered extremist (as in far right) in Canada, and even our Conservative party "evolved" before he did on gay marriage.


Lol, no he isn't. Harper is further right than Obama.


I agree with you on Obama being centrist. People saying he's right wing for a European are exagerating, atleast in the political arena in the Netherlands I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe.


Greece is slipping toward the extreme right. It's pretty scary to watch actually.
I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it. -Albert Einstein
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18845 Posts
November 05 2012 18:02 GMT
#23896
These next two days are my favorite part of the entire election process; in 2008 my roommates played Edward 40 hands while the state results came in, and let's just say there were some bruised egos (faces) after the end of that night. I think my neighbor is having an all day cookout, so this year is shaping up nicely
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Klondikebar
Profile Joined October 2011
United States2227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 18:10:25
November 05 2012 18:08 GMT
#23897
On November 06 2012 02:41 Adila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 02:37 RavenLoud wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.


Obama is only "left" in the US I'm afraid. I think the problem might be on your end.


That's what we call American Exceptionalism.


I like how Americans even get their own version of xenophobia. We truly are exceptional.

But yes, Obama is extremely middle of the road. He's not far left at all. Romney, on the other hand, has been scooching closer and closer to the middle as the election has gone on. It's a good tactic, start out bat shit insane so your extreme constituents can work themselves up into a frenzy for you. Then, start moving to the middle to catch independent voters at the last minute.
#2throwed
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 18:10:48
November 05 2012 18:10 GMT
#23898
On November 06 2012 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:59 Zaqwert wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 JDub wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:30 bOneSeven wrote:
so...with Obama we slowly go to our demise....and with Romney we do it faster....who to pick.....who to pick.....

But seriously, can anyone reasonable convince me that voting matters in this case? They're both funded by basically the same guys, so the special interests stay the same under each administration....and since special interest dictates most of what happens...Sure you can read thousands of pages to understand why this would kind of matter....but it's wishy washy mostly, not things that really happen, and the fact that something as simple as "power corrupts" is a constant and powerful equation in our political systems.....doesn't seem to tell me that it matters where you vote for the lefty guy or the whacky flipflopper guy.

While a lot of things will be the same regardless of who our president is, there are certain issues where which candidate wins does matter a lot.

1) Disaster relief. Compare the federal response to Sandy under Obama to the response to Katrina under Bush. Romney doesn't believe the federal government should play a big role (or any role) in disaster relief.

2) Tax rates. If you are in the upper 1% then you're taxes will rise under Obama and fall under Romney. Romney claims he won't raise taxes on the middle class but his tax plan is also not mathematically feasible, so taxes on middle class families will rise under Romney or the deficit will balloon.

3) Climate change. Republicans aren't committed to doing anything about it, whereas Democrats are. If you think it's all a big hoax by the entire scientific community, or if you don't give a shit about the future of humanity, then vote for Romney.

4) Women's and minority's rights. If the right to choose for women or the right to get married for gays are important to you, then you should vote for Obama.

5) Foreign policy. Our president in many ways shapes the way the rest of the world thinks about us, and as commander in chief makes a lot of big decisions about our military actions. War is not to be taken lightly, given the vast toll it takes on the members of our military while in action and when they get home from war. I'm not too sure what we'd get foreign policy-wise with a Romney/Ryan administration, since they had been very critical of Obama's foreign policy for months, and then Romney did a 180 in the 3rd debate and started agreeing with most of what Obama has done in foreign policy.

6) Healthcare. If Obamacare is repealed as Romney has said he wants, then millions of people will lose their insurance and people with pre-existing conditions will no longer be able to get insurance. It's unclear how Romney will deal with these issues.


1. Private charities provide WAY more actual assistances than the feds after disasters. For every $1 the government spends fruitfully they piss about $100 away. Besides, FEMA is a drop in the bucket, much like PBS, it's just pointless demagoguery to talk about it either of them.

2. The problem is SPENDING. The deficit and the debt have been caused by massive overspending, no amount of tax increases will help, no amount of tax cuts will hurt, without aggressive spending cuts the US budget is foobar'ed.

3. Climate Change, formerly known as global warming, fomerly known as global cooling, formerly known as some other made up term, is make believe and nothing more than an excuse for expansion of government power. For the government to increase control of the economy and have more power over individual's lives they have invented a fake crisis to combat.

4. Aboriton has been legal for 20+ years and will be never be illegal again in the US. Using silly scare tactics to try to dupe naive women into voting for your side is rather silly. I'm pretty sure we had a Republican president and Congress for 6 yeras and guess what, abortion is every bit as legal now as it was then.

5. Obama's foreign policy has been identical to Bush's. Neither Romney or Obama have much of a foreign policy difference at all.

6. The government will destroy health care. Health care is a market just like any other, and the government meddling in it will simply distort it and make it worse. Our country is damn near broke and the last thing this sinking swimmer needs is another 50 ton entitlement program strapped to it's back.


Your arguments are nothing more than pandering to poor people and special interest groups and promising them goodies or scaring them into supporting your side.

No where do you mention things like hard work, economic growth, individual liberty, etc. These are the things that make a country great. Not electing politicans who will steal from others to give to you. As the number of parasites grow, eventually the host will die.

1. Perhaps long-term in the aftermath of a disaster that's correct, FEMA and other government agencies have the capacity to mobilise to deal with such a situation in the immediate aftermath.

2. Spending is an issue, but balancing the budget means looking at the revenue side of things as well. The Republicans by and large have only promoted slashing spending, often that which aids the lower socio-economic class. All well and good, but the political establishment has to look at the bloated, bloated cash-sieve that is defence spending before complaining about government waste.

3. Climate change is a pretty easy enough phenomenon to understand. The only reason the terms change are changeable because people are stupid and go 'global warming hur hur, why is it snowing?'. To be fair, I do think this is a private sector issue and they can deal with it in time.

4. Nobody would be scaremongering if it wasn't for Republican rhetoric about repealing Roe v Wade. This is manifesting itself in the scramble in the primaries to get the 'Tea Party's' support and the Christian right-wingers. I don't personally feel that many of the Republicans actually want to remove women's reproductive rights, but have to claim they would for political expediency's sake. It's the political environment with a much more visible right-wing presence that causes an equivalent reaction from anyone who is to the left of that.

5. Yes except Romney's European excursion was pretty disastrous. Say what you like about Obama but he does play the part of a statesman well. I don't see Romney being too big a departure in terms of his policy and general positions though.

6. Healthcare isn't a market just because you say it is. Other forms of healthcare work perfectly well in other parts of the world including *gasp* Europe. If the private market was so efficient, why is healthcare in the US havemore expensive per-person expenditure and worse outcomes than other systems of healthcare?

To reiterate your point 3, it was originally called global warming only to have people mocking saying that it still gets cold in winter or that they want it being warming anyway. Global cooling was a theory proposed in the 1970's which was incorrect since it didn't look at a general trend (which global warming does look at). Global warming was never called global cooling. After it was realized that public disregarded global warming mostly because of the name (and lack of understanding of what the name means, namely an overall average increase in temperature.), it was changed to be called climate change which was easier for people to understand what the name means. A vast majority of scientist agree with climate change, for a very good reason. It doesn't help when a certain republican continues to instill the mistrust in the "elite smart people", making people more likely to disagree with scientific findings.
Fischbacher
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada666 Posts
November 05 2012 18:11 GMT
#23899
On November 06 2012 02:55 sevencck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2012 01:59 Fischbacher wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:48 kmillz wrote:
On November 06 2012 01:42 dragoonier wrote:
I definatly agree that both are bought by cooperations and lobbysts and from a european view they both seem pretty rightwing in most of their policies.
But saying that the election doesn't matter is a very ignorant statement. If you look at the democratic party and republican party then you will massive differences in social problems. I can't see a woman or a homosexual voting for a the republican party in good concience.


If Obama looks right wing by a European standpoint then I definitely don't want to ever live there. Can't imagine how far left you gotta be to think Obama looks right.

I would also point out that Obama is very much a right winger from a Canadian POV, too. Obamacare in particulare would be considered extremist (as in far right) in Canada, and even our Conservative party "evolved" before he did on gay marriage.


Lol, no he isn't. Harper is further right than Obama.

Debatable. I guess ultimatelly if Harper was in the US he would be a Republican, but since Canada is farther to the left he's been forced to move to the left on some issues (healthcare especially) to be electable.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-05 18:19:42
November 05 2012 18:13 GMT
#23900
On November 06 2012 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:
4. Nobody would be scaremongering if it wasn't for Republican rhetoric about repealing Roe v Wade. This is manifesting itself in the scramble in the primaries to get the 'Tea Party's' support and the Christian right-wingers. I don't personally feel that many of the Republicans actually want to remove women's reproductive rights, but have to claim they would for political expediency's sake. It's the political environment with a much more visible right-wing presence that causes an equivalent reaction from anyone who is to the left of that.


Republicans aren't going to repeal Roe v. Wade. There are many Republicans who "support" abortion. The 20% is loud, but they aren't that powerful.

8K. Do you approve or disapprove of the way President Obama is handling Abortion?
Approve Strongly 48.5%
Approve Somewhat 31.8%
Disapprove Somewhat 9.8%
Disapprove Strongly 8.8%
__________________________________________________

NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). Oct. 17-20, 2012. N=1,000 registered voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.1.


"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more likely to vote for a right-to-life candidate, pro-choice candidate, or would it not make much difference on how you might vote?"

Right-to-life candidate | Pro-choice candidate | Not much difference | Unsure
% % % %

28 40 31 1

32 35 29 4
____________________________________________________

As you can see, there are only a small percentage of people who are against abortion (about 20-30%). Abortion and Roe v. Wade (which needs a constitutional amendment to overturn) is not going away anytime soon. The next generation is even more liberal on this issue than the current voting generation.

It would require a two-thirds vote in both houses of Congress, not happening.
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