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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 1001

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
October 23 2012 23:31 GMT
#20001
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.


I have student loans too. What is he gonna do to them?
Writer
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
October 23 2012 23:31 GMT
#20002
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.
naastyOne
Profile Joined April 2012
491 Posts
October 23 2012 23:32 GMT
#20003
so, it looks like Romney is in good position to win.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
October 23 2012 23:32 GMT
#20004
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.
Writer
Kimaker
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2131 Posts
October 23 2012 23:39 GMT
#20005
On October 24 2012 06:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 06:50 Kimaker wrote:
On October 24 2012 06:10 Leporello wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:08 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
And of course POTUS is supposed to protect American jobs


Actually I don't really think it's any of his business...


It's the highest office of the land, and jobs are directly tied to the welfare of the people.

This a disconnect some Republicans seem to have. In their ideology to see things as Constitutionally-limited as possible, they completely overlook or neglect the spirit of practical government. Why the hell would you want a President that truly doesn't have or wants an interest in the people's general welfare?

It's not that there shouldn't be an interest in the people's general welfare, but a recognition of what that means in terms of a Federal system. The federal government does not exist to alleviate the individual sufferings of her citizens. That doesn't exclude state or local government from doing something. Obviously in cases of emergency where nothing short of full blown federal intervention can solve the problem i.e. war, enormous natural disaster, epidemic outbreaks, etc, the Federal government should step in as those issues directly relate to its responsibilities under a Federal system.

I personally blame the 14th amendment for a number of issues we see manifesting themselves in modern politics, increasing partisanship amongst them.



While the part of the preamble that says the newly born federal government was formed to "promote the general welfare" does not confer any powers directly to alleviate suffering, it does suggest that at the very least the government was formed to make people better off in general. Where you draw the brightline for "too much promotion" is more a matter of ideology than it is of any particular inherent aspect of the federal system.

Edit: Given the competitive nature of the states regarding jobs (Texas vs. California for example right now), they don't do a very good job of promoting the general welfare with regard to that aspect of the country, anyway.

I probably should have clarified I think that's an interpretive difference, not a definitive one. I consider the general welfare to be defending Citizens against foreign aggression, enforcing contractual obligations and settling internal disputes between citizens. All of which makes peoples lives better off in general.

So yeah...we agree? O_o? -ish?

Basically it's up to the Supreme Court. That being said, anything not specifically enumerated I consider unconstitutional barring an amendment, so it's not purely ideological. After all that was the point of enumerating the powers of the government and not the citizens.

Entusman #54 (-_-) ||"Gold is for the Mistress-Silver for the Maid-Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade. "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all|| "Optimism is Cowardice."- Oswald Spengler
mynameisgreat11
Profile Joined February 2012
599 Posts
October 23 2012 23:41 GMT
#20006
On October 24 2012 08:39 Kimaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 06:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On October 24 2012 06:50 Kimaker wrote:
On October 24 2012 06:10 Leporello wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:08 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
And of course POTUS is supposed to protect American jobs


Actually I don't really think it's any of his business...


It's the highest office of the land, and jobs are directly tied to the welfare of the people.

This a disconnect some Republicans seem to have. In their ideology to see things as Constitutionally-limited as possible, they completely overlook or neglect the spirit of practical government. Why the hell would you want a President that truly doesn't have or wants an interest in the people's general welfare?

It's not that there shouldn't be an interest in the people's general welfare, but a recognition of what that means in terms of a Federal system. The federal government does not exist to alleviate the individual sufferings of her citizens. That doesn't exclude state or local government from doing something. Obviously in cases of emergency where nothing short of full blown federal intervention can solve the problem i.e. war, enormous natural disaster, epidemic outbreaks, etc, the Federal government should step in as those issues directly relate to its responsibilities under a Federal system.

I personally blame the 14th amendment for a number of issues we see manifesting themselves in modern politics, increasing partisanship amongst them.



While the part of the preamble that says the newly born federal government was formed to "promote the general welfare" does not confer any powers directly to alleviate suffering, it does suggest that at the very least the government was formed to make people better off in general. Where you draw the brightline for "too much promotion" is more a matter of ideology than it is of any particular inherent aspect of the federal system.

Edit: Given the competitive nature of the states regarding jobs (Texas vs. California for example right now), they don't do a very good job of promoting the general welfare with regard to that aspect of the country, anyway.

I probably should have clarified I think that's an interpretive difference, not a definitive one. I consider the general welfare to be defending Citizens against foreign aggression, enforcing contractual obligations and settling internal disputes between citizens. All of which makes peoples lives better off in general.

So yeah...we agree? O_o? -ish?

Basically it's up to the Supreme Court. That being said, anything not specifically enumerated I consider unconstitutional barring an amendment, so it's not purely ideological. After all that was the point of enumerating the powers of the government and not the citizens.



I still want to hear what you blame about the 14th amendment.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
October 23 2012 23:46 GMT
#20007
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.

He has proposed to reform them. With a Republican Congress that turns its head at even the tiniest hint of Obama policy, we're likely to end up with nothing on the student loans front.

What Obama has done is increase access to government loans and grants. If you're currently enrolled or graduated, it doesn't help you much.
Romantic
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1844 Posts
October 23 2012 23:46 GMT
#20008
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.


And is only facilitating never ending college cost inflation by constantly pumping more money in to student loans whenever colleges up the price.

Half of all students drop out of college before completing their degrees. College needs to be harder to do, not easier. It is just that nobody wants to hear that because they live in fantasy land where college = good so the government should fund it and promote it endlessly.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 23:51:18
October 23 2012 23:47 GMT
#20009
so how do you feel about the way that the commerce clause is used? That's a pretty crucial part of the precedent in the way the power of the federal government is interpreted. You would change a lot of everything if you interpreted that more narrowly.

And we all know, kids: radical thinking is bad.

edit:
On October 24 2012 08:46 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.

College needs to be harder to do, not easier. It is just that nobody wants to hear that because they live in fantasy land where college = good so the government should fund it and promote it endlessly.


spot on

edit: well, college IS good, but it does need to be harder. But then you would have to pay for a functional primary school system so fuck it I guess
shikata ga nai
holy_war
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States3590 Posts
October 23 2012 23:55 GMT
#20010
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/the-electoral-college-wild-card-in-a-presidential-tie/

I would laugh so hard if there was a 269/269 tie and an elector flips the election one way or another.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
October 23 2012 23:55 GMT
#20011
On October 24 2012 08:46 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.


And is only facilitating never ending college cost inflation by constantly pumping more money in to student loans whenever colleges up the price.

Half of all students drop out of college before completing their degrees. College needs to be harder to do, not easier. It is just that nobody wants to hear that because they live in fantasy land where college = good so the government should fund it and promote it endlessly.

College education is a huge boon to individuals and the economy overall. By restricting access to college through socioeconomic segregation, you're hurting everybody. The system itself leaves a lot to be desired, but restricting access at all will not solve those problems.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 23:57:20
October 23 2012 23:56 GMT
#20012
On October 24 2012 08:46 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.

He has proposed to reform them. With a Republican Congress that turns its head at even the tiniest hint of Obama policy, we're likely to end up with nothing on the student loans front.

What Obama has done is increase access to government loans and grants. If you're currently enrolled or graduated, it doesn't help you much.


The reform I'm talking about is already in place. However, not many people are taking advantage of it apparently.

On October 24 2012 08:46 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.


And is only facilitating never ending college cost inflation by constantly pumping more money in to student loans whenever colleges up the price.

Half of all students drop out of college before completing their degrees. College needs to be harder to do, not easier. It is just that nobody wants to hear that because they live in fantasy land where college = good so the government should fund it and promote it endlessly.


Uh, in what way is giving students financial aid making college EASIER? Giving them financial aid does not boost their academic ability, their resumes, their SAT scores, nothing.

Half of all students drop out of college, sure. That's mainly because of financial reasons. Maybe if these people could afford college they wouldn't drop out.
Writer
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 23 2012 23:57 GMT
#20013
Yes, but we do expect too high of a graduation rate and waste a lot of money teaching too easy courses to accomplish this. I think college should be free to anyone who can do the work, though.
shikata ga nai
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
October 24 2012 00:03 GMT
#20014
On October 24 2012 08:39 Kimaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 06:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On October 24 2012 06:50 Kimaker wrote:
On October 24 2012 06:10 Leporello wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:46 BluePanther wrote:
On October 24 2012 05:08 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
And of course POTUS is supposed to protect American jobs


Actually I don't really think it's any of his business...


It's the highest office of the land, and jobs are directly tied to the welfare of the people.

This a disconnect some Republicans seem to have. In their ideology to see things as Constitutionally-limited as possible, they completely overlook or neglect the spirit of practical government. Why the hell would you want a President that truly doesn't have or wants an interest in the people's general welfare?

It's not that there shouldn't be an interest in the people's general welfare, but a recognition of what that means in terms of a Federal system. The federal government does not exist to alleviate the individual sufferings of her citizens. That doesn't exclude state or local government from doing something. Obviously in cases of emergency where nothing short of full blown federal intervention can solve the problem i.e. war, enormous natural disaster, epidemic outbreaks, etc, the Federal government should step in as those issues directly relate to its responsibilities under a Federal system.

I personally blame the 14th amendment for a number of issues we see manifesting themselves in modern politics, increasing partisanship amongst them.



While the part of the preamble that says the newly born federal government was formed to "promote the general welfare" does not confer any powers directly to alleviate suffering, it does suggest that at the very least the government was formed to make people better off in general. Where you draw the brightline for "too much promotion" is more a matter of ideology than it is of any particular inherent aspect of the federal system.

Edit: Given the competitive nature of the states regarding jobs (Texas vs. California for example right now), they don't do a very good job of promoting the general welfare with regard to that aspect of the country, anyway.

I probably should have clarified I think that's an interpretive difference, not a definitive one. I consider the general welfare to be defending Citizens against foreign aggression, enforcing contractual obligations and settling internal disputes between citizens. All of which makes peoples lives better off in general.

So yeah...we agree? O_o? -ish?

Basically it's up to the Supreme Court. That being said, anything not specifically enumerated I consider unconstitutional barring an amendment, so it's not purely ideological. After all that was the point of enumerating the powers of the government and not the citizens.



Anything not specifically enumerated being unconstitutional is itself an ideological stance, especially because "specifically enumerated" is itself a purely subjective term. I was just saying that pointing to Federalism as meaning "the federal government doesn't exist to alleviate individual suffering" has no basis in the Constitution (which is the defining artifact of the purpose of the federal government) and, indeed, contains some evidence to the contrary.
TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
October 24 2012 00:17 GMT
#20015
So I just read Romney wants to deny gay and lesbian couples the right to hospital visitation. I'm totally confused on why this is even an issue, or why you would do this in the first place. Like not being able to see your lover before they die based on sexual orientation seems absurd to me.

Source http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-mcgonnigal/romney-may-end-hospital-visitation-rights-for-many-gay-couples_b_1996964.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
Swazi Spring
Profile Joined September 2012
United States415 Posts
October 24 2012 00:24 GMT
#20016
Did you see Obama's new 2012 "job plan?" It's the exact same thing as his previous "jobs plan" only with the addition of "closing tax deductions for companies that outsource jobs," even though there are no such deductions and Obama just made it up. Troll harder, Obama.
Swazi Spring
Profile Joined September 2012
United States415 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-24 00:32:33
October 24 2012 00:28 GMT
#20017
On October 24 2012 05:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 00:50 Swazi Spring wrote:
On October 24 2012 00:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 24 2012 00:36 Swazi Spring wrote:
On October 24 2012 00:29 ThomasjServo wrote:
On October 24 2012 00:19 Swazi Spring wrote:
On October 23 2012 23:58 ThomasjServo wrote:
On October 23 2012 23:39 DownOnMyNiece wrote:
On October 23 2012 23:26 ThomasjServo wrote:
On October 23 2012 23:13 DoubleReed wrote:
Well, I think the idea is that we should help them so that they will like us and then have a democracy that likes us.

Outwardly that is the idea without a doubt, historically though the support that has been lent to these groups by the US specifically has not yielded the desired results.


Historically speaking, the US-involvement in finances and war has brought an entire continent to a captitalist, pro-USA democratic paradise when it could just as easily been a communist hell-hole.


There have been success stories to be certain, and in many respects some of the states Cold War policies did affect positive democratic change. I should have been more specific about states where there were contentions by proxy with the USSR and the Soviet model for Communism relative to other examples, you are correct.

Most, if not all, of the states that America helped and didn't become democratic were NOT (or were not going to be) democratic if we didn't intervene. For instance, I don't think anyone really expect Afghanistan to turn into a first-world capitalist democracy after we helped them overthrow the Soviets.


Contextually speaking, the idea of our intervention in Afghanistan was not establishing democracy rather it was making the Soviet military effort much more difficult. From the vague nature of Romney's statement it is difficult if not impossible to extrapolate what his intentions would be beyond providing some level of support for Syrian rebels while not directly involving US military personnel.

The implication from both candidates does seem to be that the US would be more involved in the post conflict Syrian affairs than we were in Afghanistan in the 1980s. That kind of hardware/technical support that Romney seems to be in favor of providing is very similar to the role we played with Afghan fighters during that conflict though.

In which case, why not support a stable and secular government, democratic or otherwise? I would rather have Syria be more like Egypt under Mubarak than Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood.

Funny, people who were going full messianic few years ago now prefer dictatorship than democracy when they are not happy with the outcomes of elections.


I'm pretty sure all of those Egyptians who thought they would get a secular, capitalist, and democratic government are not happy with the outcomes of the elections as well. Also, the elections were reportedly rife with electoral fraud, which throws their validity into question.

That remind me when an American president was elected despite obvious fraud and that the non democratically nominated supreme court decided that it was ok.

I'm pretty sure all of those American who thought they would get a secular and democratic president were not happy with the election when a conservative moron called George Bush got "elected".

Ah, double standard.

Anyway. The point is, MB got elected. You prefer Mubarak? Don't say anything in your whole life about believing in Democracy.

It sounds like you don't understand how American politics work. Bush won because he got the electoral vote, and he's hardly the first person to win the electoral vote, but not the popular vote; in fact it's happened 4 times thus far and there's a good chance that it will happen this year (Romney wins popular vote, Obama wins electoral college).
TheRPGAddict
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1403 Posts
October 24 2012 01:04 GMT
#20018
On October 24 2012 08:46 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 08:32 Souma wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:31 aksfjh wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:30 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


I fear for my student loans.

Fear for them regardless of who is elected.


Obama has reformed student loans to make it easier for people to pay them off.


And is only facilitating never ending college cost inflation by constantly pumping more money in to student loans whenever colleges up the price.

Half of all students drop out of college before completing their degrees. College needs to be harder to do, not easier. It is just that nobody wants to hear that because they live in fantasy land where college = good so the government should fund it and promote it endlessly.
One could argue some undergraduate studies and majors need to become more difficult ACADEMICALLY. Making a more restrictive socioeconomic barrier for participation in such academics is just making some needless trouble for everyone and would not make a stronger middle class or general population in the long run. I can't believe a post like this was taken seriously.
Chriscras
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)2812 Posts
October 24 2012 01:04 GMT
#20019
On October 24 2012 08:29 Souma wrote:
I'm wondering if Romney gets elected if it'll affect me personally in any way. A little curious.


It could if you get a girl pregnant.
"En taro adun, Executor."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 24 2012 01:05 GMT
#20020
heads up TL the third party debate is starting:

http://live.freeandequal.org/stream.html

Also on C-SPAN
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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