I encountered an interesting discussion in the internet about someone buying an old church and convert it into a domicile. I have no disagreements about this as this is a wise and practical use of space. What made me step back a bit though was how they re-used the cross (by the looks of it, it seemed like the altar cross too).
To be honest, I can't feel to bad, especially that the are gamers themselves like most of us here on TL, and they seem to thoroughly enjoy the place and make good use of it. Somewhere in the thread however, there is another post on church use in Netherlands. Here it is:
Now, it is here I realized that the old curches are both not in the USA. It has been apparent that traditional Catholicism is losing its dominance, especially in Europe and this has resulted in empty churches, which some parishes are forced to sell. But I believe that in the event of reuse of these former church spaces, there has to be some agreement between the church and the new owners not to deviate or at least desecrate the items in the space, like the cross. Or better yet, remove them from sale such that only the structure is part of the new ownership.
What do you think about this fellow TL members? Should there be guidelines on the reuse of old church spaces? And what is the best use of empty church spaces that could prove beneficial to the community.
Well, I'm not exactly the most unbiased individual, as I find the cross being used to hold pool cues hilarious. However. If the church is really concerned about the inappropriate use of their sacred items, they should remove them before selling the place. If they leave them behind, they clearly don't care too much.
On April 18 2012 21:30 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote: I encountered an interesting discussion in the internet about someone buying an old church and convert it into a domicile. I have no disagreements about this as this is a wise and practical use of space. What made me step back a bit though was how they re-used the cross (by the looks of it, it seemed like the altar cross too).
To be honest, I can't feel to bad, especially that the are gamers themselves like most of us here on TL, and they seem to thoroughly enjoy the place and make good use of it. Somewhere in the thread however, there is another post on church use in Netherlands. Here it is:
Now, it is here I realized that the old curches are both not in the USA. It has been apparent that traditional Catholicism is losing its dominance, especially in Europe and this has resulted in empty churches, which some parishes are forced to sell. But I believe that in the event of reuse of these former church spaces, there has to be some agreement between the church and the new owners not to deviate or at least desecrate the items in the space, like the cross. Or better yet, remove them from sale such that only the structure is part of the new ownership.
What do you think about this fellow TL members? Should there be guidelines on the reuse of old church spaces? And what is the best use of empty church spaces that could prove beneficial to the community.
I couldn't help but laugh at the inappropriateness of this all. If you're going to build a place where you can play poker, pool, have a bit of a net cafe etc, don't pick a church. Then if you've got a church, don't improvise with their sacred items like the cross. Then after that, don't take photos of it publicising what you've done, turning it all into a mockery.
Strictly speaking, they haven't done anything wrong. But the world isn't divided into right and wrong, and the combination of everything they've done is plain inconsiderate. I'm pretty sure this is going to instigate several complaints from stout Christians, and I don't blame them. It is such an avoidable situation that I believe that they deliberately did this to piss off people.
I don't think there should be official guidelines on what you do with old church spaces, but fuck I wish people had respect/common sense/courtesy/manners/whatever you want to call it.
Hopefully this won't disintegrate into another religion debate. :/
Unless that cross was hand crafted by Jesus himself then it's just a piece of wood. Those things are mass produced in factories by people who don't even believe in a religion that uses them. I see no issue at all with using it in that fashion. Would you rather it be burned or thrown away? Because that seems wasteful.
Obviously the owner of the church didn't feel it was very important, either. In the end, regardless of how decorative and detailed it may be, a church is nothing more than a building and any religious value to it (aside from some really old, really famous churches) is in your head and not the building itself. Turning a church into a skate park is no different than buying an old grocery store and doing the same thing.
Props to these guys for being resourceful and efficient.
Serejai, if that's the way you put it, then nothing is ever sacred, not even the Bible, or the word of God because no one can prove that Jesus or God uttered/made them himself.
But let us please focus on the topic - use of church space. I agree the church should have taken the initiative and removed these things, especially that they are not attached to the structure.
As a Christian, I don't see a problem. It isn't like the churches or the cross are inherently holy - as some would say, its the people that make the church. Maybe if it was a graveyard or some such then it be an issue, but otherwise its just a building where people used to worship God.
Only reason I can see to stop this is preserving historical buildings.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
It is a piece of wood. Your God cares not for such silly bullshit. You insult him by caring.
On April 18 2012 21:49 LAN-f34r wrote: As a Christian, I don't see a problem. It isn't like the churches or the cross are inherently holy - as some would say, its the people that make the church. Maybe if it was a graveyard or some such then it be an issue, but otherwise its just a building where people used to worship God.
Only reason I can see to stop this is preserving historical buildings.
Pretty much this. I actually laughed when I saw the cross being used for pool queues. I think that's awesome.
If we're putting so much faith in the symbols that we can't bear to see them used for pragmatic purposes by people in their own homes, I think perhaps we need to take a step back and remember that a cross on the wall of a church is just a piece of wood meant to point the congregation to Christ. It's nothing special in itself, at all.
Also I'm not sure how long I'd give this thread to survive.
EDIT: also this:
On April 18 2012 21:35 Salivanth wrote: Well, I'm not exactly the most unbiased individual, as I find the cross being used to hold pool cues hilarious. However. If the church is really concerned about the inappropriate use of their sacred items, they should remove them before selling the place. If they leave them behind, they clearly don't care too much.
if the congregation is confused enough to consider their local bits and pieces sacred, they should take them with them.
On April 18 2012 21:49 LAN-f34r wrote: As a Christian, I don't see a problem. It isn't like the churches or the cross are inherently holy - as some would say, its the people that make the church. Maybe if it was a graveyard or some such then it be an issue, but otherwise its just a building where people used to worship God.
Only reason I can see to stop this is preserving historical buildings.
I agree. I even find the way they made it into a cozy lan party space awesome. My contention really has more to do with the church authorities. They should have taken the initiative to protect these things. I am not so sure how the Netherland church thing happened though? Is it something that church authorities are not aware of?
Also, if you know of other cases where church being reused, please post them here. I am interested that churches are actually converted for other uses.
I think that the idea of guidelines for "old churches" is a bit ridiculous. As soon as these guys bought the place, it stopped being a church and became a church-shaped house instead. It's their house and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to use whichever object they want to hang their pool cues on.
It took me a min to even find the cross in any of these pictures lol. It would have been way funnier if Jesus was nailed to it and holding a pool cue in each hand. I grew up Catholic and nothing in these pictures offends me. If anything, by preserving some of its church-like qualities they are giving its history due respect.
If you create a poll here on TL on whether people are offended or not, I daresay about 95% won't give a shit. That's because of the demographics of the forums, with most of us being rather young and international, exposed to atheism etc etc. However in the public there will be a lot of people that are older, stout Christians that will find this offensive.
Should we just completely ignore them? Should we tell them to go take their bibles and shove it up their ass, claiming it's just a book from a printer? No. But that's sort of what they've done here. They've taken their wooden cross and turned it into a cue holder.
It's just creating unnecessary drama. And for what purpose? Was there really no other land at all where they could've built this stuff instead? No other wood that they could've used to hold their cues? No where else they could play poker/computer games?
Just do the smart thing and stay away from the silly and completely avoidable drama.
edit: I suppose I should clarify that my exasperation at this story is not at the fact that they did this stuff, it's more that they decided to publicise it. That was the stupidest move imo.
The dutch thing is in co-operation with the religious people there, who moved to a different location years ago leaving this abandoned. This was just one of twelve churches by that parochy that were empty and I for one am glad they managed to turn it into something with purpose.
On April 18 2012 21:58 vGl-CoW wrote: I think that the idea of guidelines for "old churches" is a bit ridiculous. As soon as these guys bought the place, it stopped being a church and became a church-shaped house instead. It's their house and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to use whichever object they want to hang their pool cues on.
I beg your permission to pursue this line of thought to its extreme end. How would the general society, the catholics, the moralists, the immoralists, athiests, and humanity at lage feel if an old church is bought and reused as a prostitution house?
On April 18 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote: You can do pretty cool things with light projection and a church
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2RXFZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LAHB7h.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MjtQYh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qiz1Nh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gJLPTh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CwOaG)
