EPTStudent Loan Forgiveness Act - Page 25
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TeamBanished
United States301 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 19 2012 05:22 danl9rm wrote: Wait, one-on-one private tutoring by their own parent(s) is terrible? And, you think all, or even most, k-12 teachers have college-level comprehension of all subjects? I would be doing my child a disservice to raise him myself instead of letting a stranger? Hahahahaha. Read my later posts for more details on my opinion including answer to your implicit why. K-12 teachers should have that knowledge in the subjects they teach, not in all, because unlike you they use this human invention called division of labor. Also how does sending kid to school mean in any way you cannot raise him ? | ||
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Diomedes7
67 Posts
On April 19 2012 05:48 Timerly wrote: True but as a parent you can make up for that. You want the best for your child, you get an EXACT picture of what the child understands cause you can keep pushing until you find out. Having more of your attention directed at a single student (by a factor of 30 for many public schools) means you can teach exactly to their needs. Everybody who was educated at a public school know how much time you spend hearing about stuff you already know and how sometimes you just don't get something teachers can't spend more time on in respect for the others. Even if you teach 20% as effective as a professional you can still get the same results by simply putting everything into one student. Homeschooling just needs to be checked by exams once or twice a year, that's about it. If kids pass it they're fine, make them a little harder cause it's a privilege in comparison, specifics are not the subject though. And on topic: Problem is not the loan system, it's the fact that you NEED those loans. I mean wtf, outside of the US universities are often completely free or at least far less expensive without lacking in the quality of education. German engineers are world class and people here don't pay for tuition at all in most states, how does any uni justify 10k in tuition fees per semester? I mean where the fuck is that money even going? You need loans to afford higher education because the federal student loan program made them so easily available. They are pretty much guaranteed. So if students can't pay tuition, they can just take out a loan. The universities know this and It gives them free reign to just keep inflating prices. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:05 Stratos_speAr wrote: So many people like you in this thread just can't understand that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. The punishments for defaulting on student loans are absolutely ridiculous and this is why people need help. this thread is discussing whether to allow loan forgiveness, not whether to change the "punishment" for defaulting. if the punishment is the problem, draft a bill to change the punishment, dont draft a bill to forgive the loans because you dont like the punishment. | ||
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omnic
United States188 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:15 morevox wrote: What about the people who can't make the payments? My fiance got her degree and is heavily in debt but cannot find a job with her degree, even when the college promised to help with job placement. So she is working min wage and there is no way she can pay what they want her to pay..... Don't worry people will say shes just lazy and obviously didn't work hard enough and deserves to be in this mess. Anything that could help her is just a handout and god forbid people help eachother. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:12 omnic wrote: Part of it has to do with how people are bombarded by messages since they are an infant that they need to pursue higher education if they want to have any sort of comfortable lifestyle. I mean if you are told by basically everybody around for your entire life that you NEED to go to college and you have to take out loans to make ends meet then its not as clear cut as "they know what they're getting into". It is true they generally do. What they don't understand is that you won't always get that job you are after and its not exactly not uncommon for you to have to settle for a job that you could of had without any college degree at all (such as retail). People understood the situation regarding the loan itself... What they did NOT understand was that they can't pay off their loans later on because they just can't get a good job. then people need to grow the fuck up before they sign big-boy loan commitments. lets stop pampering our kids and teach them some responsibility. edit: i bought a home in 2006. when the market tanked and my home was worth 40% of what i bought it for in less than two years, i didnt ask the government or Countrywide to forgive my mortgage. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:19 omnic wrote: Don't worry people will say shes just lazy and obviously didn't work hard enough and deserves to be in this mess. Anything that could help her is just a handout and god forbid people help eachother. What degree did she get? Just because she took the decision go into debt to get a potentially useless degree doesn't mean others have to pay for it. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On April 19 2012 05:05 GrayArea wrote: As a future grad student who is going to be going into 300k+ debt, I can easily say that it's simply ridiculous how high tuition and interest rates are. If they are going to be putting us this deep into the hole, they need more programs that offer loan forgiveness. Signed the petition. You don't truly appreciate how much debt, work, time, effort it all is until you actually go into that much debt yourself. Support this. How many years did you spend in university and what kind of a degree did you get? Unless you got a degree with actual job prospects and can be paid over 100K / year, than you've wasted 300K$ and should be responsible for it yourself. And if you can make over 100K a year with whatever degree you get, you should still pay for it yourself. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:15 morevox wrote: What about the people who can't make the payments? My fiance got her degree and is heavily in debt but cannot find a job with her degree, even when the college promised to help with job placement. So she is working min wage and there is no way she can pay what they want her to pay..... there are options available to her through the loan company (or government) to defer payment, reduce payment, etc. she should contact them and see what she can do about her situation. loan companies dont want people to default as much as people dont want to default. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 19 2012 05:56 Stratos_speAr wrote: This is in the same category as, "The ones without jobs are the ones who ended up with a useless liberal arts degree". It's complete BS with nothing backing it up (the second one has actually been proven to be false) and it's just thrown around by those that don't understand that life isn't actually fair to everyone. Nothing backing it up? Except that although there are a lot less jobs, there's still a lot of jobs out there? There's currently 2284 jobs on the UCI career fair job board. Give me a break. I mean, I had multiple interviews as well with companies that didn't even post on the job board, I just went to their website and applied. This also doesn't count the thousands of hires that have already happened throughout the year (for example, all major consulting and accounting firms hire during the fall ONLY). There's tons of jobs out there, tons of interviews, people just aren't applying themselves. I saw someone say they had a 3.4 in engineering and couldn't find a job. I can only surmise that it's his lack of effort, lack of internship, or terrible cover letters. Engineers are still getting hired all over the place, I believe at the moment it's the number one hired major in the entire nation. And if you have a 3.4 in engineering you're most likely top 10% of your class. He said he didn't even get a single interview. SOMETHING is wrong when my roommate with a 2.94 had 25+ interviews last year and landed a job paying $60k+. Not to mention he got a job offer out in Utah that was offering 68k, he just didn't want to move to Utah. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
People arguing against Bills like the one in the OP seem personally, chip-on-the-shoulder offended. No one is arguing, as far as I can see, what the actual negatives are of unburdening our youngest generation of some of this debt. I don't care that you're 'a self-made man who pulled himself up by his own boot-straps, so how can these kids expect me to pay for their "mistakes", blah, blah, blah, blah.' All sorts of things are unfair about modern society -- and no one is going to have to pay the bill more than the future generations. We are screwing them over economically, environmentally, and culturally. So I don't give a **** about you, your life, and your moral objections to what is a financial, country-wide issue. I don't care. I really don't. We, as a culture, continue to place more and more emphasis on college, while racketing the tuition costs and handing out loans. Is this the fault of the students, or society as a whole? Well, the correct answer is it doesn't ****ing matter whose fault it is!!! It doesn't matter if it's a "handout" that you didn't receive. All that matters is what's best for our country's future. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:05 KwarK wrote: I just want to make sure I am fulling understanding your point here before I criticise it. Your premise, if I'm reading it correctly, is that those who don't outperform their peers don't succeed and don't deserve to succeed and therefore shouldn't whine. Your solution is that everyone works harder, outperforms their peers, all get the most competitive jobs and then nobody whines. Sir, I can't help feeling like you overpaid for your education. Did you intentionally cut off the next sentence of my post in order to post that critique? If you want to read the very next sentence... The people without jobs are the ones that didn't work hard enough in college/university. Almost everyone that graduates top of their class gets jobs. You need to outperform your peers, you always have had to, it's just more drastic in this recession. Too many people have the mentality "C's get degrees." Now don't get me wrong, I don't think this is necessarily right, I just think a lot of people whining out there simply haven't put the effort in while still in school. Does this mean they necessarily deserve the debt? Absolutely not. But I haven't met a single person with a high GPA in my major/minor (business econ/accounting) that hasn't landed a solid job. On April 19 2012 06:31 Leporello wrote: Okay, I'll say this one last time, and then excuse myself. People arguing against Bills like the one in the OP seem personally, chip-on-the-shoulder offended. No one is arguing, as far as I can see, what the actual negatives are of unburdening our youngest generation of some of this debt. I don't care that you're 'a self-made man who pulled himself up by his own boot-straps, so how can these kids expect me to pay for their "mistakes", blah, blah, blah, blah.' All sorts of things are unfair about modern society -- and no one is going to have to pay the bill more than the future generations. We are screwing them over economically, environmentally, and culturally. So I don't give a **** about you, your life, and your moral objections to what is a financial, country-wide issue. I don't care. I really don't. We, as a culture, continue to place more and more emphasis on college, while racketing the tuition costs and handing out loans. Is this the fault of the students, or society as a whole? Well, the correct answer is it doesn't ****ing matter whose fault it is!!! It doesn't matter if it's a "handout" that you didn't receive. All that matters is what's best for our country's future. All I saw here was "I don't care if we fuck over the 25% that worked hard if it benefits the larger majority of 50% who didn't." What kind of argument is that? Arguably the worst argument I've seen in this entire thread (namely because it was filled with "I really don't fucking care" etc. etc.) | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:31 Leporello wrote: No one is arguing, as far as I can see, what the actual negatives are of unburdening our youngest generation of some of this debt. seems many people have pointed out that this will put a further burden on the government budget and/or increase taxes, which is just bad practice since it is not going to create a better economy. and more generally that it promotes financial irresponsibility by students. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:28 FabledIntegral wrote: Nothing backing it up? Except that although there are a lot less jobs, there's still a lot of jobs out there? There's currently 2284 jobs on the UCI career fair job board. Give me a break. I mean, I had multiple interviews as well with companies that didn't even post on the job board, I just went to their website and applied. This also doesn't count the thousands of hires that have already happened throughout the year (for example, all major consulting and accounting firms hire during the fall ONLY). There's tons of jobs out there, tons of interviews, people just aren't applying themselves. I saw someone say they had a 3.4 in engineering and couldn't find a job. I can only surmise that it's his lack of effort, lack of internship, or terrible cover letters. Engineers are still getting hired all over the place, I believe at the moment it's the number one hired major in the entire nation. And if you have a 3.4 in engineering you're most likely top 10% of your class. He said he didn't even get a single interview. SOMETHING is wrong when my roommate with a 2.94 had 25+ interviews last year and landed a job paying $60k+. Not to mention he got a job offer out in Utah that was offering 68k, he just didn't want to move to Utah. I have no idea on the US job market but if its anything like Europe and you're under 35 you're fucked. Babyboomers are hogging all the good spots based on their 'time with the company/institution' and all getting ready for their fishing trips when they retire early, probably a good 5-8 years earlier then I'll retire. Out of the shitloads of money society spends, they should at least consider investing in education instead of cutting back on it every time again while they're too scared to touch the real things that are spiralling the deficits out of control: social security, rising medical costs, or put differently: old people. There was some thruth to 'paying your due to the people that built your country', but all the babyboomers are doing is sucking every last dollar out of the system before they finally depart this world. Plans like this don't even make a dent in the deficit, most of Europe runs government programs like this and with the profits made off the loans that get paid back they all run 'profits'. Education isn't something you waste money on, its something you invest money in that will pay itself back several times over in taxes. Except ofcourse if you're in a society that places a higher marginal tax rate on minimum wage earners than millionaires. | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
On April 18 2012 09:17 kammeyer wrote: I haven't seen anything on the forums about this topic. I used the search function, but alas nothing. Basically, a rep from Michigan has come forward to recognize the student debt problem and has drafted a solution. You can find it here : Sign the Petition Basics: -The bill would create a new “10-10 standard” for student loan forgiveness. If you make payments equal to 10% of your discretionary income for 10 years, your remaining federal student loan debt would be forgiven. - If you have already been making payments on your student loans, your repayment period would likely be shorter than 10 years. The amount you have already paid on your student loans over the past decade would be credited toward meeting the requirement for forgiveness. - The bill would ensure low interest rates on federal student loans by capping them at 3.4%. - The bill would allow existing borrowers whose educational loan debt exceeds their income to break free from the crushing interest rates of private loans by converting their private loan debt into federal Direct Loans, then enrolling their new federal loans into the 10/10 program. - The bill would reward graduates for entering public service professions like teaching and firefighting. It would also provide incentives for medical professionals to work in underserved communities. It would reduce the Public Service Loan Forgiveness requirement to 5 years from its current 10 years. View Full: Full Bill What do you guys think? You should sign the petition if you're for it, but open dialogue about it would be cool as well. This is exactly how the housing bubble was started. I would not endorse it. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:14 Bigtony wrote: As a professional educator, I'm just going to tell you that you are wrong (as long as we are ignoring outliers, which we should) and you don't really understand how homeschooling works. Most people who homeschool their children are: a) very smart (as smart as, or smarter than the average teacher) and more than capable of teaching K-12 subject matter b) smart enough to know that they aren't smart enough to teach K-12 subject matter and so they seek outside help In both cases, the majority belong to co-ops, groups, learning associations, etc. that have access to a wealth of resources and professionals to bridge the gap. Studies show that homeschoolers, on average, outperform their public school counterparts in just about every area. Which might be just a testament to terrible basic public education in US, which would make homeschooling a good thing as a temporary patch, but should make reform of public education more important ? There is not much you can conclude from that research other than exactly what it says. Not even talking that I know (and I am not from US) about parents who misuse homeschooling to shelter/indoctrinate their children. I have no idea how prevalent is that, but even the fact that it is used like that is rather disconcerting. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:20 dAPhREAk wrote: then people need to grow the fuck up before they sign big-boy loan commitments. lets stop pampering our kids and teach them some responsibility. edit: i bought a home in 2006. when the market tanked and my home was worth 40% of what i bought it for in less than two years, i didnt ask the government or Countrywide to forgive my mortgage. Do you think there is room for argument to be made that it makes the most financial sense to, if after 10 years of paying 10% of your income towards your loans, forgive those loans so the person can inject that money back into the economy. (I'm asking cause I have no idea!) I know at least personally I see a huge issue with the pay structure for Higher education in America. To give myself as an example. I spent 200k+ on a BA in psychology which I would be lucky if it could secure me a job paying 50-60k a year. At that rate (5k a year against 200k in loans plus interest) I would basically never pay off my loans and be stuck putting 10% of my income every year into them (it would also be a big weight on my credit score, making any future loans more costly) Now I'm in my MS program where Graduate assistants get 12k a semester on stipend, and non GAs get tuition paid for in exchange for 7 hours a week work for the department. Same applies to PhD programs. It seems to me that any non professional degree (engineering, nursing, business, etc) at the undergraduate level is basically robbery because the cost of the degree in no way matches the earning potential it gives you. Yet graduate education (where you get earning potential) is basically free across the board. This bill seems to be trying to address this issue- because if I end up with a PhD I'll likely have the income to pay off my undergraduate loans, but if I'm stuck with a basically useless BA against its cost, I'll be able to salvage my financial well being. Do you simply not see the cost vs earning potential issue of undergraduate degrees as an issue that should be addressed? Or do you just not think this bill is addressing the issue correctly? | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:37 Jisall wrote: This is exactly how the housing bubble was started. I would not endorse it. Could you elaborate? I'd be interested in the parallels you could draw (I really don't know much about the housing bubble beyond what CNN told me >__>) | ||
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TheAngryZergling
United States387 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:12 mcc wrote: It seems like you missed my point in both parts. My point was not only how to relate the information. That was actually less important. It was how to even understand the question and the answer properly you need some previous advanced knowledge of the subject. That it is not as easy as just looking the answer up. I picked "hard" sciences in my previous post not by accident. Sorry if I missed your point on this one. Was trying to agree. Regardless, I also agree with your clarified point; that being able to understand the question (and preferably the thought process leading to the asking of the question) is definitely important and, yes, it precedes knowing the answer to the question, which precedes the appropriate presentation of the answer. All are needed to teach most effectively. On April 19 2012 05:18 TheAngryZergling wrote: Here we will just have to agree to disagree. I do not acknowledge age appropriate knowledge. I believe that there is cognitive and maturity appropriate knowledge. While I had a standard education, none of the dozens of people I know of who were homeschooled were ostracized in any way shape or form. There are a million reasons kids torment and isolate each other and being homeschooled doesn't really carry the sting that so many others can. I used age as good enough approximation of maturity for most. But you are correct. But I made no point about ostracization. That was not my point when I said separating them is not greatest solution. My point was that at that point in their lives the academic part of education is not really the most important part. That being with as many different peers as possible (in non-parent controlled environment) is important. I did not really deal with ostracization as that is pervasive in public schools anyway. Although it might be another plus, to actually experience some kind of ostracization/other pervasive negative social phenomena might be good for preparing the kid for adult non-sheltered life. Of course with reason, schools should reasonably combat all those things, but they will still happen as they happen after the child enters the "adult" world.[/QUOTE] Whether or not education or character development through social interactions is more important seems likely to be different for each and probably unknowable by teachers, parents, or even the kid themselves. The vagaries of the rest of their life answer that. Both are super important. As long as you don't sequester them away I think life does a pretty darn good job of exposing kids to those formative situations. Personal opinion. I have enjoyed our discussion but since we have fallen off topic perhaps its best continued in PMs (he says after his 5th such post) if you wish to continue it. | ||
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