|
This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:
Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO.
Zimmerman could have called the police and continued his trip to the store or anything short of getting out of the car. When Zimmerman followed Trayvon, and made himself vulnerable to attack in the dark, he made himself vulnerable to whatever Trayvon felt appropriate.
Trayvon could have continued his path and gotten home without GZ ever knowing where he went. Apparently, he was upset that he was being viewed as suspicious simply because he was black, so he didn't simply go home. When Trayvon beat up Zimmerman, he made himself vulnerable to whatever Zimmerman felt appropriate, which in this case was a gun shot to the chest.
Each did something they shouldn't have done, although I'd suggest GZ had a right to monitor Trayvon's location, whereas Trayvon had absolutely no right to physically attack GZ. Anyways, they each did what they did and got an unexpected result dealt to them by the other. Lesson learned. You can choose to do whatever you feel appropriate at the time, but don't expect things to go as you expect and it's simply safer and wiser to keep your distance.
|
On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted.
It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force?
|
On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force?
Around the point where you called the police, told them the guy ran off, and they suggested you not follow.
|
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ?
|
On July 02 2013 08:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force? Around the point where you called the police, told them the guy ran off, and they suggested you not follow.
So... not get out of the car? Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
|
On July 02 2013 07:31 dAPhREAk wrote:great job on the objective reporting CBS News.
I saw this and went "Hmm wonder what's he's talking about, that statement seems rather innocuous." So I went to the article in question and read it. Holy Shit.
|
On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ?
Hah, I was just about to say the same thing.
In that situation, I'd feel even more responsible as GZ, especially considering I was the neighborhood watch that night.
|
On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws.
|
On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force?
Hmm, well before the fight happened GZ made a decision to bring a gun with him, when confronting a stranger with accusatory suspicions.
The gun has a safety switch on it. Either the safety was off the entire time GZ was in possession of it, or he had the time and ability to switch the safety off while in the midst of (allegedly) fighting for his life.
GZ had the time and luxury of ending the fight in this fatal manner. Trayvon, quite obviously, didn't. Again, we don't know what happened to start the fight, or how the fight went. The only facts we know are that GZ shot Trayvon, and that GZ had somehow sustained some injuries. We have no real witnesses as to how GZ sustained those injuries.
I understand that to claim murder under such cloudy circumstances is wrong. We can't prove GZ is a murderer. But he is certainly someone who should never be allowed to carry a gun. He certainly proved himself grossly incompetent, and that's the best that can be said about him.
I really don't care about this actual trial. It's actually meaningless in a lot of ways. Trayvon is dead, and GZ -- while I do think he may be guilty of simple manslaughter, he isn't a malicious killer. I don't worry about him to the point that I think he needs to be locked up, I just don't want this idiot ever following anyone with a gun ever again. I hope everyone can agree with that, at least.
|
On July 02 2013 08:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force? Around the point where you called the police, told them the guy ran off, and they suggested you not follow. So... not get out of the car? Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
I know that's not what happened. There's a dead kid right now proving that that is not what happened.
But if you ask when Zimmerman should have shot the kid--the answer is that he shouldn't have. The answer is that if you carry a gun with you while going vigilante that people will get hurt. The answer is somewhere along the time he called the police and the police answered his call is when he stops acting stupid.
|
On July 02 2013 08:18 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ? Short answer: No. Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws.
What? Keeping an eye on suspicious individuals is the job of a neighborhood watch person. You can question the evidence surrounding the altercation itself all you want, but he was completely within his rights and his expectations as part of the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on Trayvon. It's not illegal to follow someone. It is illegal to assault someone.
|
On July 02 2013 08:19 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force? Hmm, well before the fight happened GZ made a decision to bring a gun with him, when confronting a stranger with accusatory suspicions. The gun has a safety switch on it. Either the safety was off the entire time GZ was in possession of it, or he had the time and ability to switch the safety off while in the midst of (allegedly) fighting for his life. GZ had the time and luxury of ending the fight in this fatal manner. Trayvon, quite obviously, didn't. Again, we don't know what happened to start the fight, or how the fight went. The only facts we know are that GZ shot Trayvon, and that GZ had somehow sustained some injuries. We have no real witnesses as to how GZ sustained those injuries.I understand that to claim murder under such cloudy circumstances is wrong. We can't prove GZ is a murderer. But he is certainly someone who should never be allowed to carry a gun. He certainly proved himself grossly incompetent, and that's the best that can be said about him. I really don't care about this actual trial. It's actually meaningless in a lot of ways. Trayvon is dead, and GZ -- while I do think he may be guilty of simple manslaughter, he isn't a malicious killer. I don't worry about him to the point that I think he needs to be locked up, I just don't want this idiot ever following anyone with a gun ever again. I hope everyone can agree with that, at least.
apparently O'Mara did not say John Good enough during his cross.
|
People get praised all the time for doing reckless things in the name of justice... as long as they don't get themselves or someone else hurt, then they are pronounced idiots. At least that's what I've learned from watching youtube videos.
|
On July 02 2013 08:19 Leporello wrote:
The only facts we know are that GZ shot Trayvon, and that GZ had somehow sustained some injuries. We have no real witnesses as to how GZ sustained those injuries.
No, we also have John Good's testimony. He is the only third-party to have seen Trayvon and George before the shot was fired. So, George's injuries were not "somehow" inflicted, they were the result of Trayvon beating George, which John Good testified to have seen. Why you ignore John Good when you say "We have no real witnesses as to how GZ sustained those injuries" is puzzling. Are you willfully ignorant of this or did you just catch your update from MSNBC or CBS ?
|
On July 02 2013 08:21 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:18 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ? Short answer: No. Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws. What? Keeping an eye on suspicious individuals is the job of a neighborhood watch person. You can question the evidence surrounding the altercation itself all you want, but he was completely within his rights and his expectations as part of the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on Trayvon. It's not illegal to follow someone. It is illegal to assault someone.
You assume that I am arguing about legality (which I am not) and that I am approving of neighborhood watches (I do not).
|
On July 02 2013 08:19 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:03 SilverLeagueElite wrote:On July 02 2013 07:36 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:27 SKC wrote:On July 02 2013 07:25 Defacer wrote:On July 02 2013 07:15 SilverLeagueElite wrote:
Tragic for the Martins but I'm kinda starting to feel bad for Zimmerman. He has a history of being sympathetic towards blacks but is having his life ruined because of perceived racism on his part. I don't feel bad for Zimmerman at all. He at least is getting his day in court, and is being tried by a court of law and his peers for his indiscretions Martin was sentenced to death by Zimmerman. It's like people are forgetting that he did technically kill a 17 year old who's only plans that night were to visit his dad. It might have been in self-defence but still. Worst. Neighborhood. Watch. Ever. Assuming Zimmerman's words are true, Martin sentenced himself to death. Well, that's when it becomes a question of morals. If someone you were following turns around and beats you up, does that mean he deserves to get shot in the chest? Punishment doesn't fit the crime, IMO. George Zimmerman may be innocent, and is probably only guilty of defending himself in the heat of the moment. But personally, I don't think Trayvon deserved to die for for how he reacted. It's a pitch black night with heavy rains. You're having your head dashed against the pavement after having your nose broken. You've been yelling for help for a good 40 secs but no one comes. At what point should you stop to consider whether or not to use deadly force? Hmm, well before the fight happened GZ made a decision to bring a gun with him, when confronting a stranger with accusatory suspicions. The gun has a safety switch on it. Either the safety was off the entire time GZ was in possession of it, or he had the time and ability to switch the safety off while in the midst of (allegedly) fighting for his life. GZ had the time and luxury of ending the fight in this fatal manner. Trayvon, quite obviously, didn't. Again, we don't know what happened to start the fight, or how the fight went. The only facts we know are that GZ shot Trayvon, and that GZ had somehow sustained some injuries. We have no real witnesses as to how GZ sustained those injuries. I understand that to claim murder under such cloudy circumstances is wrong. We can't prove GZ is a murderer. But he is certainly someone who should never be allowed to carry a gun. He certainly proved himself grossly incompetent, and that's the best that can be said about him. I really don't care about this actual trial. It's actually meaningless in a lot of ways. Trayvon is dead, and GZ -- while I do think he may be guilty of simple manslaughter, he isn't a malicious killer. I don't worry about him to the point that I think he needs to be locked up, I just don't want this idiot ever following anyone with a gun ever again. I hope everyone can agree with that, at least.
If this trial ends up the way it looks like it's going to end up, Zimmermann, according to the law, used a gun in the exact way it is suposed to be used, to save his life.
Wether you don't agree that's what really happened doesn't matter, I don't think the state can forbid him from using a weapon considering he used it lawfully. Either way, I'm sure he will not go back to his old life. It's just impossible for him to do so.
|
On July 02 2013 08:21 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:18 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ? Short answer: No. Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws. What? Keeping an eye on suspicious individuals is the job of a neighborhood watch person. You can question the evidence surrounding the altercation itself all you want, but he was completely within his rights and his expectations as part of the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on Trayvon. It's not illegal to follow someone. It is illegal to assault someone.
His neighborhood watch training specifically said not to follow suspects.
The police told him he didn't have to follow.
It's not about illegality, its about stupidity. It's not illegal to walk home after stopping by the store; but apparently that's enough to get shot.
User was warned for this post
|
On July 02 2013 08:25 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:21 ZasZ. wrote:On July 02 2013 08:18 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ? Short answer: No. Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws. What? Keeping an eye on suspicious individuals is the job of a neighborhood watch person. You can question the evidence surrounding the altercation itself all you want, but he was completely within his rights and his expectations as part of the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on Trayvon. It's not illegal to follow someone. It is illegal to assault someone. You assume that I am arguing about legality (which I am not) and that I am approving of neighborhood watches (I do not).
Witch hunts are only okay if citizens stand around watching you 
|
On July 02 2013 08:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 08:21 ZasZ. wrote:On July 02 2013 08:18 Ghostcom wrote:On July 02 2013 08:10 Kaitlin wrote:
To anyone of you who feel it was morally wrong for GZ to keep an eye on where Trayvon had gone, if GZ had stopped tracking where Trayvon went, and he found out the next day that one of his neighbors had experienced a home invasion and they had been killed, would that affect your analysis of what GZ did ? Short answer: No. Long answer: No because mob-justice and vigilantism goes against the foundations of a society build upon laws. What? Keeping an eye on suspicious individuals is the job of a neighborhood watch person. You can question the evidence surrounding the altercation itself all you want, but he was completely within his rights and his expectations as part of the neighborhood watch to keep an eye on Trayvon. It's not illegal to follow someone. It is illegal to assault someone. His neighborhood watch training specifically said not to follow suspects. The police told him he didn't have to follow. It's not about illegality, its about stupidity. It's not illegal to walk home after stopping by the store; but apparently that's enough to get shot.
The issue is when people consider what he did worse than what Trayvon did.
|
The nick on Zimmerman's head is probably one of the more horrific head wounds I've ever seen. Martin must have slammed his head with full strength at least 15 times.
Frankly I'm surprised Zimmerman didn't die on the spot due to the extreme severity of those vicious and repeated strikes to the head against the pavement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
