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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On June 29 2013 14:21 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. He's probably basing his opinion on police based on the "police brutality" videos that pop up once in a while in Reddit. Police are servants, and 99% do a great job deserving of our gratitude.
Hey, could you make up some more complete shit please? lol.
You're probably basing your opinion on Fox News and the Andy Griffith Show.
Oh wait, I have absolutely no idea where you form your opinions from or what websites you visit? I also don't pull numbers purely from my ass? I don't pretend to know you, you don't pretend to know me.
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On June 29 2013 14:33 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:37 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:29 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:21 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:12 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:09 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:08 OuchyDathurts wrote:
[quote]
If he didn't trust them why would he call them? Surely a normal harmless kid would trust the police, and call the police if he felt his life was in danger right? I don't trust cops and I'm a normal, harmless white man with zero criminal record. Is there something wrong with that? You seem to be going down the "If you've done nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide!" line of reasoning. No, that is not my reasoning. I would say that most normal harmless people(which Trayvon Martin supporters say he is) do trust the police if they felt they were in a life or death situation. Its fine to not trust the cops, but at what degree? Do you not trust them enough to the point you wouldn't call 911 if you felt your life was in danger? If I felt I could defuse the situation without them there's no reason to call. If I felt that leading a stranger in the darkness and rain to my house to call them would put my family in danger that is absolutely the last thing I'd ever do. Are you implying that the police never target "normal harmless" people? Someone, or their family, or their friends, might have had some undue run in with the law where they were treated unfairly. Someone might have been taught to not trust the police. There are plenty of logical reasons for a "normal harmless" person to not want to ever deal with the police. So you would confront the man who you think is trying to harm you AFTER you already ran to get away from him? Sorry but in my personal opinion if you can't get past your paranoid beliefs of the cops when you life is in danger than I don't know what to say. So you would follow the guy you thought was a thug in the darkness instead of waiting for the police? Knowing absolutely no good could ever come from it? Leading to a confrontation and the death of a kid? You have absolutely no problem with that line of reasoning? If I actually believed someone was following me I'd stop and let them pass me. If it turned into a confrontation I can take care of myself. Any possible harm that might ensue I'd rather happen to me than to my family. Zimmerman used the exact same line of reasoning. When asked for his address he started rattling it off then stopped and said he didn't want to give it out because the guy might be listening, on 2 separate occasions. Maybe Trayvon started running for home and decided using the exact same thought process I don't want to lead this weirdo to my family. If that's a perfectly reasonable thought for George to have it's a perfectly reasonable thought for Trayvon to have. I think it perfectly reasonable to find out which way the suspicious person ran in order to give the cops better directions, I don't believe he was chasing him. And sure its possible to have that reasoning as Trayvon Martin. So I will agree that is it is a possible thought for Trayvon Martin, but I think it is highly unlikely it actually was. I think that because he didn't express that feeling while talking to his girlfriend on the phone, and why would he tell his girlfriend on the phone out load that he was close to his family member's home if he was concerned for their safety? I think it would be smart to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I'm just curious what is your overall thoughts of this case? Telling someone over the phone you live in the area is a far cry from leading them with a trail of bread crumbs to your home. One is general one is specific. I think George is a complete idiot for following a stranger in the dark and rain, ESPECIALLY one he thought was some sort of criminal. I believe if he didn't think those actions might lead to a confrontation he's an idiot that deserved to get roughed up. I believe that pulling a gun after in effect you started something with your stupid actions is a pussy move. Absolutely no where that night did his actions make a single bit of sense to me. I don't think Trayvon was an angel, but most teenagers aren't. I think the whole "he has pics of weed!" shit is hilarious like that makes him Al Capone or something. The whole situation was easily avoidable by Zimmerman just butting out and waiting for the cops. Literally none of this would have happened. All this because you think some kid might be responsible for some break ins, which is of course completely unfounded. Because some people lost some stuff that insurance would replace some kid had to die, that's a crying fucking shame. Zimmerman should have known his actions could be interpreted in the wrong way even if for the sake of argument he had nothing but the purest intentions. He should have been aware that this might turn into a fight if this person he believes is a criminal takes what he's doing the wrong way. I think the stand your ground law is a total fucking joke personally in that you can start shit and if it gets out of hand just go blast someone and it's cool, even if you started it. If you start something you better be willing to take the ass beating, that's how I was raised. I'd at least say George would be guilty of manslaughter but again, that assumes this asinine law doesn't exist. We'll see how it all pans out but at no point did Trayvon deserve to die, those wounds aren't fear of death wounds IMO. Afauk, this case has nothing to do with stand your ground law. I believe the defense waived the right to argue for that. It's regular self defense. And regular self defense seems very much applicable to this case, considering what the prosecution can prove.
You're correct, they dropped the Stand your ground defense for this. The law itself is asinine but since they can't use it I don't see how this isn't manslaughter IMO. Its in a jury's hands though, you never know what they'll do.
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On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil.
I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them.
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On June 29 2013 14:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:33 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:37 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:29 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:21 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:12 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:09 Zenocide wrote:
[quote]
Surely a normal harmless kid would trust the police, and call the police if he felt his life was in danger right? I don't trust cops and I'm a normal, harmless white man with zero criminal record. Is there something wrong with that? You seem to be going down the "If you've done nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide!" line of reasoning. No, that is not my reasoning. I would say that most normal harmless people(which Trayvon Martin supporters say he is) do trust the police if they felt they were in a life or death situation. Its fine to not trust the cops, but at what degree? Do you not trust them enough to the point you wouldn't call 911 if you felt your life was in danger? If I felt I could defuse the situation without them there's no reason to call. If I felt that leading a stranger in the darkness and rain to my house to call them would put my family in danger that is absolutely the last thing I'd ever do. Are you implying that the police never target "normal harmless" people? Someone, or their family, or their friends, might have had some undue run in with the law where they were treated unfairly. Someone might have been taught to not trust the police. There are plenty of logical reasons for a "normal harmless" person to not want to ever deal with the police. So you would confront the man who you think is trying to harm you AFTER you already ran to get away from him? Sorry but in my personal opinion if you can't get past your paranoid beliefs of the cops when you life is in danger than I don't know what to say. So you would follow the guy you thought was a thug in the darkness instead of waiting for the police? Knowing absolutely no good could ever come from it? Leading to a confrontation and the death of a kid? You have absolutely no problem with that line of reasoning? If I actually believed someone was following me I'd stop and let them pass me. If it turned into a confrontation I can take care of myself. Any possible harm that might ensue I'd rather happen to me than to my family. Zimmerman used the exact same line of reasoning. When asked for his address he started rattling it off then stopped and said he didn't want to give it out because the guy might be listening, on 2 separate occasions. Maybe Trayvon started running for home and decided using the exact same thought process I don't want to lead this weirdo to my family. If that's a perfectly reasonable thought for George to have it's a perfectly reasonable thought for Trayvon to have. I think it perfectly reasonable to find out which way the suspicious person ran in order to give the cops better directions, I don't believe he was chasing him. And sure its possible to have that reasoning as Trayvon Martin. So I will agree that is it is a possible thought for Trayvon Martin, but I think it is highly unlikely it actually was. I think that because he didn't express that feeling while talking to his girlfriend on the phone, and why would he tell his girlfriend on the phone out load that he was close to his family member's home if he was concerned for their safety? I think it would be smart to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I'm just curious what is your overall thoughts of this case? Telling someone over the phone you live in the area is a far cry from leading them with a trail of bread crumbs to your home. One is general one is specific. I think George is a complete idiot for following a stranger in the dark and rain, ESPECIALLY one he thought was some sort of criminal. I believe if he didn't think those actions might lead to a confrontation he's an idiot that deserved to get roughed up. I believe that pulling a gun after in effect you started something with your stupid actions is a pussy move. Absolutely no where that night did his actions make a single bit of sense to me. I don't think Trayvon was an angel, but most teenagers aren't. I think the whole "he has pics of weed!" shit is hilarious like that makes him Al Capone or something. The whole situation was easily avoidable by Zimmerman just butting out and waiting for the cops. Literally none of this would have happened. All this because you think some kid might be responsible for some break ins, which is of course completely unfounded. Because some people lost some stuff that insurance would replace some kid had to die, that's a crying fucking shame. Zimmerman should have known his actions could be interpreted in the wrong way even if for the sake of argument he had nothing but the purest intentions. He should have been aware that this might turn into a fight if this person he believes is a criminal takes what he's doing the wrong way. I think the stand your ground law is a total fucking joke personally in that you can start shit and if it gets out of hand just go blast someone and it's cool, even if you started it. If you start something you better be willing to take the ass beating, that's how I was raised. I'd at least say George would be guilty of manslaughter but again, that assumes this asinine law doesn't exist. We'll see how it all pans out but at no point did Trayvon deserve to die, those wounds aren't fear of death wounds IMO. Afauk, this case has nothing to do with stand your ground law. I believe the defense waived the right to argue for that. It's regular self defense. And regular self defense seems very much applicable to this case, considering what the prosecution can prove. You're correct, they dropped the Stand your ground defense for this. The law itself is asinine but since they can't use it I don't see how this isn't manslaughter IMO. Its in a jury's hands though, you never know what they'll do.
they neither dropped it nor waived the defense. they just decided not to file a pre-trial motion; nothing prevents them from filing the motion during the trial. most likely they will do so after the close of the prosecutor's case in chief.
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On June 29 2013 14:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:35 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:33 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:30 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:37 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:29 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 13:21 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 13:12 OuchyDathurts wrote:
[quote]
I don't trust cops and I'm a normal, harmless white man with zero criminal record. Is there something wrong with that?
You seem to be going down the "If you've done nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide!" line of reasoning.
No, that is not my reasoning. I would say that most normal harmless people(which Trayvon Martin supporters say he is) do trust the police if they felt they were in a life or death situation. Its fine to not trust the cops, but at what degree? Do you not trust them enough to the point you wouldn't call 911 if you felt your life was in danger? If I felt I could defuse the situation without them there's no reason to call. If I felt that leading a stranger in the darkness and rain to my house to call them would put my family in danger that is absolutely the last thing I'd ever do. Are you implying that the police never target "normal harmless" people? Someone, or their family, or their friends, might have had some undue run in with the law where they were treated unfairly. Someone might have been taught to not trust the police. There are plenty of logical reasons for a "normal harmless" person to not want to ever deal with the police. So you would confront the man who you think is trying to harm you AFTER you already ran to get away from him? Sorry but in my personal opinion if you can't get past your paranoid beliefs of the cops when you life is in danger than I don't know what to say. So you would follow the guy you thought was a thug in the darkness instead of waiting for the police? Knowing absolutely no good could ever come from it? Leading to a confrontation and the death of a kid? You have absolutely no problem with that line of reasoning? If I actually believed someone was following me I'd stop and let them pass me. If it turned into a confrontation I can take care of myself. Any possible harm that might ensue I'd rather happen to me than to my family. Zimmerman used the exact same line of reasoning. When asked for his address he started rattling it off then stopped and said he didn't want to give it out because the guy might be listening, on 2 separate occasions. Maybe Trayvon started running for home and decided using the exact same thought process I don't want to lead this weirdo to my family. If that's a perfectly reasonable thought for George to have it's a perfectly reasonable thought for Trayvon to have. I think it perfectly reasonable to find out which way the suspicious person ran in order to give the cops better directions, I don't believe he was chasing him. And sure its possible to have that reasoning as Trayvon Martin. So I will agree that is it is a possible thought for Trayvon Martin, but I think it is highly unlikely it actually was. I think that because he didn't express that feeling while talking to his girlfriend on the phone, and why would he tell his girlfriend on the phone out load that he was close to his family member's home if he was concerned for their safety? I think it would be smart to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I'm just curious what is your overall thoughts of this case? Telling someone over the phone you live in the area is a far cry from leading them with a trail of bread crumbs to your home. One is general one is specific. I think George is a complete idiot for following a stranger in the dark and rain, ESPECIALLY one he thought was some sort of criminal. I believe if he didn't think those actions might lead to a confrontation he's an idiot that deserved to get roughed up. I believe that pulling a gun after in effect you started something with your stupid actions is a pussy move. Absolutely no where that night did his actions make a single bit of sense to me. I don't think Trayvon was an angel, but most teenagers aren't. I think the whole "he has pics of weed!" shit is hilarious like that makes him Al Capone or something. The whole situation was easily avoidable by Zimmerman just butting out and waiting for the cops. Literally none of this would have happened. All this because you think some kid might be responsible for some break ins, which is of course completely unfounded. Because some people lost some stuff that insurance would replace some kid had to die, that's a crying fucking shame. Zimmerman should have known his actions could be interpreted in the wrong way even if for the sake of argument he had nothing but the purest intentions. He should have been aware that this might turn into a fight if this person he believes is a criminal takes what he's doing the wrong way. I think the stand your ground law is a total fucking joke personally in that you can start shit and if it gets out of hand just go blast someone and it's cool, even if you started it. If you start something you better be willing to take the ass beating, that's how I was raised. I'd at least say George would be guilty of manslaughter but again, that assumes this asinine law doesn't exist. We'll see how it all pans out but at no point did Trayvon deserve to die, those wounds aren't fear of death wounds IMO. Afauk, this case has nothing to do with stand your ground law. I believe the defense waived the right to argue for that. It's regular self defense. And regular self defense seems very much applicable to this case, considering what the prosecution can prove. You're correct, they dropped the Stand your ground defense for this. The law itself is asinine but since they can't use it I don't see how this isn't manslaughter IMO. Its in a jury's hands though, you never know what they'll do. they neither dropped it nor waived the defense. they just decided not to file a pre-trial motion; nothing prevents them from filing the motion during the trial. most likely they will do so after the close of the prosecutor's case in chief.
You are correct. I'd just seen that he waived it but apparently they can bring it up again later. Wasn't aware that was an option down the road.
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On June 29 2013 14:03 dAPhREAk wrote:lol. thinkprogress..... keeping the hope alive..... Witness Makes Key Admission That He Never Saw Trayvon Martin Throw A Punch At Zimmerman Show nested quote +On day five of George Zimmerman’s trial for the death of Trayvon Martin, a key witness who previously claimed to have seen Martin “throwing down blows” admitted he never saw an actual punch thrown. This admission from John Good could undermine Zimmerman’s claim he shot 17-year-old Martin in reasonable self-defense.
According to the original police report, Good claimed he had seen a black male pinning Zimmerman down “just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA [mixed-martial arts] style.” But on Friday, Good told jurors he “could not see” any punches thrown, only that there was “downward movement.” He also admitted he was not 100 percent sure who yelled “help,” but assumed it was Zimmerman. It is not the first time Good has changed his account of the night Martin died. Three weeks after the incident, Good told a special prosecutor he couldn’t truly tell who yelled for help “because it was so dark out on that sidewalk.”
The reliability of witness testimony has been a major focus for both the defense and state prosecution in the trial. Zimmerman’s defense attorneys have tried to highlight inconsistencies of another witness, 19-year-old Rachel Jeantel, who was on the phone with Martin moments before the shooting. Asked repeatedly by Zimmerman’s attorney Don West why she lied about her reason for not attending Martin’s wake, Jeantel admitted she did not want to see his body. “You. Got. To. Un. Der. Stand,” Jeantel said. “I’m the last person—you don’t know how I felt. You think I really want to go see the body after I just talked to him?” http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/06/28/2232681/witness-admission-zimmerman/?mobile=ncsome comments: Show nested quote +... I don't know what kind of Alternate Reality these Zimmerman supporters live in, but what I see at this trial and I've watched almost the entire thing, is NOTHING near what you guys are seeing. Zimmerman is going to be convicted easily. Show nested quote +Seems the only way to interpret what's happening in Zimmerman's favor is if you're just going to blame the "black guy" no matter what you hear -- Show nested quote +I wonder if Zimmerman's injuries were self-inflicted, as he worried about getting charged with murder.
What a joke.
Why are there so many idiots rooting for someone who is still innocent until proven guilty to be put in jail? It just boggles the mind. It's not like we don't have enough people in jail already (something that I bet those fools at ThinkProgress have complained about in other contexts).
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On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them.
I personally don't know anyone who would rather deal with a violent criminal act themselves instead of calling the police. People I know aren't terrified of the police, the only thing they worry about when they see a cop is glancing down at their speedometer and slowing down.
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On June 29 2013 14:51 Eben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them. I personally don't know anyone who would rather deal with a violent criminal act themselves instead of calling the police. People I know aren't terrified of the police, the only thing they worry about when they see a cop is glancing down at their speedometer and slowing down.
Ok, but that is anecdotal evidence based on your personal experience. Someone else has different experiences with the police. If that was always the case there wouldn't be much need for things like conceal and carry. People should just call the cops and lay low instead of deal with a violent criminal act themselves. I'm sure some people have had nothing but glowing interactions with police. The ones who get in the business to actually help people are amazing. The ones who get in it for other reasons are the least trustworthy people on earth. Your experiences aren't other people's experiences.
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Korea (South)11568 Posts
On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them.
You are doing the same thing... "They profile people every day" Are you not being hypocritical in any way? You live in a country that boasts about the freedom that you are inherently given, and these people you are profiling as the devil take up a job in order to protect that freedom, and keep you out of harms way.
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On June 29 2013 15:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them. You are doing the same thing... "They profile people every day" Are you not being hypocritical in any way? You live in a country that boasts about the freedom that you are inherently given, and these people you are profiling as the devil take up a job in order to protect that freedom, and keep you out of harms way.
The police's job isn't to protect the countries freedoms, that's the job of the military. Some of them do their job, I never said SOME of the police officers out there aren't the good ones. They take the job to help the public. The job they're given is given natural power over the everyday citizen. You're aware of the saying that "power corrupts" I'm guessing. Some people use their badge for all the wrong reasons. These stigmas that exist around the police at large aren't completely unfounded and there are statistics that the criminal justice system at large targets minorities to a higher degree.
In a country the size of the US you don't believe that at the very least 1 cop doesn't profile 1 person on any given day? If you believe through whatever source you want that the police might not treat you fairly purely based upon your race, or religion, or economic background, or sexual orientation or whatever why would you trust them? You're taking a crap shoot by choosing to involve them.
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All this talk about whether Trayvon would be expected to lead Zimmerman back to his house... Have you guys seen the pictures shown at trial ? It was pitch black. Without camera flash, you couldn't see jack 20 feet in front of you. The first 5 neighbors said it was too dark to see anything. Trayvon had "lost" Zimmerman at one point, he was clearly a faster runner, and his dad's girlfriend's house was at the very back corner. Just by going around corners he could ensure he wasn't followed, and easily get home without leading Zimmerman. GZ couldn't even see Trayvon when Trayvon asked him why he was following him, let alone could he have seen him if he were 100 yards further away, where the house was.
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Korea (South)11568 Posts
On June 29 2013 15:15 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 15:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them. You are doing the same thing... "They profile people every day" Are you not being hypocritical in any way? You live in a country that boasts about the freedom that you are inherently given, and these people you are profiling as the devil take up a job in order to protect that freedom, and keep you out of harms way. The police's job isn't to protect the countries freedoms, that's the job of the military. Some of them do their job, I never said SOME of the police officers out there aren't the good ones. They take the job to help the public. The job they're given is given natural power over the everyday citizen. You're aware of the saying that "power corrupts" I'm guessing. Some people use their badge for all the wrong reasons. These stigmas that exist around the police at large aren't completely unfounded and there are statistics that the criminal justice system at large targets minorities to a higher degree. In a country the size of the US you don't believe that at the very least 1 cop doesn't profile 1 person on any given day? If you believe through whatever source you want that the police might not treat you fairly purely based upon your race, or religion, or economic background, or sexual orientation or whatever why would you trust them? You're taking a crap shoot by choosing to involve them.
There are exceptions for everything, but your logic continues to fail. There are people who abuse their positions in everything, but it is a vast minority. There are crooked police, no one is denying that fact. But once again, it's a minuscule amount compared to those who put their lives in violent situations to help those such as yourself. They are the people who try to keep your streets safe from predators such as rapists, murderers, drug dealers, gang bangers, etc... They also prosecute white collared crime offenders.
And you have yet to say anything of concrete value, instead you continue your internet warrior persona.
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On June 29 2013 15:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 15:15 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 15:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them. You are doing the same thing... "They profile people every day" Are you not being hypocritical in any way? You live in a country that boasts about the freedom that you are inherently given, and these people you are profiling as the devil take up a job in order to protect that freedom, and keep you out of harms way. The police's job isn't to protect the countries freedoms, that's the job of the military. Some of them do their job, I never said SOME of the police officers out there aren't the good ones. They take the job to help the public. The job they're given is given natural power over the everyday citizen. You're aware of the saying that "power corrupts" I'm guessing. Some people use their badge for all the wrong reasons. These stigmas that exist around the police at large aren't completely unfounded and there are statistics that the criminal justice system at large targets minorities to a higher degree. In a country the size of the US you don't believe that at the very least 1 cop doesn't profile 1 person on any given day? If you believe through whatever source you want that the police might not treat you fairly purely based upon your race, or religion, or economic background, or sexual orientation or whatever why would you trust them? You're taking a crap shoot by choosing to involve them. There are exceptions for everything, but your logic continues to fail. There are people who abuse their positions in everything, but it is a vast minority. There are crooked police, no one is denying that fact. But once again, it's a minuscule amount compared to those who put their lives in violent situations to help those such as yourself. They are the people who try to keep your streets safe from predators such as rapists, murderers, drug dealers, gang bangers, etc... They also prosecute white collared crime offenders. And you have yet to say anything of concrete value, instead you continue your internet warrior persona.
People of power need to be held to a MUCH higher standard. Any form of corruption within places of power need to be quickly and harshly dealt with to show that shit won't fly or you're going to lose the trust of the people. I can show you some videos of what has happened when people went to police stations to attempt to file reports against cops before if you'd like but that's fairly off topic to the trial. Often shitty cops get protection from the brotherhood of blue, protection they're in no way due. Protection that would not be afforded to anyone else if they were just a regular citizen.
The majority of cops I've met have been shit. Maybe I've had awful luck in that regard. Maybe the disproportionate number of black people behind bars have just had shit luck too. It couldn't be that things are skewed against them, that the cops don't willingly target minorities for no reason.
There aren't that many rapists and murderers. Drug dealers and gang bangers depend on where you live, and also your definition of drugs, if we're talking pot I'm not exactly concerned. Also cops have been known to commit all those crimes themselves, while hiding behind a badge and gun. White collar crimes, not so much. I think if those actually got dealt with at the level they should it might help the police's image some.
Again, like the guy from Brazil. I don't know how cops work in your country but it must be nice!
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On June 29 2013 15:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 15:15 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 15:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:On June 29 2013 14:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:18 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 14:13 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:10 SKC wrote:On June 29 2013 14:09 OuchyDathurts wrote:On June 29 2013 14:00 SKC wrote:
You are basically advocating Vigilatne justice. Forget the autorities, take the matters into your own hands. I can't imagine how else you would expect people to stop criminal activities. I hope you realize all the issues that brings and why it is illegal. Either way, you cannot project your beliefs into someone else. It's not common at all to be so averse to calling the police to report a crime. Uhhh, its VERY common to be adverse to calling the police. Maybe not in Brazil, I have no idea how shit flies there. But it's insanely common for people in America to have a huge distrust of the police. Also you're fine with George dishing out Vigil Ante justice but not for Trayvon to maybe, have possibly, potentially have chosen it was wiser for him to confront Zimmerman than to lead a short, fat, bald stalker to the place his family resides? We'll never know exactly what happened and a confrontation could have been just a verbal altercation. Again, we'll never ever know because George decided to kill. Not to the point of not wanting to call 911 if you think there is a serial killer after you, and you would rather confront him unarmed, because you believe the police will be more dangerous than him. I assure you, not to that extent. I'm sorry if you cant understand why you wouldn't call the devil for help but that's just how it is. If you don't trust them they may as well not exist because they're never an option under any circumstance. Sounds extremely irrational, and paranoid to not call the police under any circumstance, and to equate them to the devil. I don't know how much plainer it could be. If you don't trust someone they may as well be the devil. The police abuse their power every single day. They profile people every day. If you believe they're not to be trusted, why on earth would you suddenly trust them? You have no idea what is going to happen, you don't know how their going to side. Maybe they surprise you and do the right thing and they're totally fair and everything is happy clappy. Maybe they don't and they side with the other guy, maybe they hate blacks. If there is a track record for you to avoid them like the plague there is no reason for you to contact them. You are doing the same thing... "They profile people every day" Are you not being hypocritical in any way? You live in a country that boasts about the freedom that you are inherently given, and these people you are profiling as the devil take up a job in order to protect that freedom, and keep you out of harms way. The police's job isn't to protect the countries freedoms, that's the job of the military. Some of them do their job, I never said SOME of the police officers out there aren't the good ones. They take the job to help the public. The job they're given is given natural power over the everyday citizen. You're aware of the saying that "power corrupts" I'm guessing. Some people use their badge for all the wrong reasons. These stigmas that exist around the police at large aren't completely unfounded and there are statistics that the criminal justice system at large targets minorities to a higher degree. In a country the size of the US you don't believe that at the very least 1 cop doesn't profile 1 person on any given day? If you believe through whatever source you want that the police might not treat you fairly purely based upon your race, or religion, or economic background, or sexual orientation or whatever why would you trust them? You're taking a crap shoot by choosing to involve them. There are exceptions for everything, but your logic continues to fail. There are people who abuse their positions in everything, but it is a vast minority. There are crooked police, no one is denying that fact. But once again, it's a minuscule amount compared to those who put their lives in violent situations to help those such as yourself. They are the people who try to keep your streets safe from predators such as rapists, murderers, drug dealers, gang bangers, etc... They also prosecute white collared crime offenders. And you have yet to say anything of concrete value, instead you continue your internet warrior persona.
How much experience do you have with police culture?
The area I live in is full of rich white people and the police are all heavily regulated + paid well (~70k starting salary) and I can tell you with absolute certainty that police that take advantage of their position are the majority, police that live to serve the people and nothing else are a minority at least here.
Not saying police are bad, most my friends and a good chunk of my family are cops but saying they don't abuse their power is naive at best. I can imagine it would be much worse with less regulation and less money.
edit: You also seem to be under the impression that keeping the streets safe and abusing their power are mutually exclusive, they are not. In fact keeping the streets safe is far easier if they do abuse their power.
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To anyone with a law background:
How objective is Legal Insurrection in criticizing the approach of the State? I just went through the recaps for the past 5 days and they all more or less completely slam the State's prosecution. Wanted to know if the site had some established bias or that the prosecution had literally been quite that bad.
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On June 29 2013 13:27 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I don't understand why people don't trust cops? Every single cop I have ever met has been an amazing person. Very friendly and helpful.
This distrust for the police just doesn't make sense. I'm assuming people hate them for giving you a speeding ticket.
That's like asking, "Why don't people trust doctors?" Because some doctors become doctors primarily for the money and security and can give two shits about people's actual health and welfare unless they're billing at X amount an hour.
Some cops are great, some are on auto-pilot, and and some cops become cops because they like having power over people.
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On June 29 2013 12:43 Zenocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 12:38 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 12:24 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 12:11 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 11:55 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 11:47 Esk23 wrote:On June 29 2013 11:40 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 11:34 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 10:33 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 10:11 Defacer wrote:[quote] Zimmerman is probably not guilty of anything but being stupid and human — kind of like this poster. Zimmerman stalked and treated a teenager like a criminal because he was black, and tragedy and calamity ensued. But yeah, race had a lot to do with this situation even happening, which is why people are invested in it. + Show Spoiler + I find it hard to believe that a person with the intent of stalking another would call 911 to report suspicious activity. Stalkers don't normally call 911 while they are stalking. Didn't the 911 operator instruct George Zimmerman NOT to follow Trayvon? Maybe 'stalking' is the wrong word. But Zimmerman did something dumb. You can test this going out tonight, and silently follow a woman or black kid or anyone else for ten minutes on the street and see how they react. Obviously I think Zimmerman didn't deserve to get attacked for what he did, but ... yeah. I get it. I've been followed by creepy old dudes when I was a younger — and my natural reaction was to ball up my keys in my fist and get ready to fight. The 911 operator did not, and can not give direct orders. Maybe he was a bit over zealous in his intent to find out which way Trayvon Martin went, but just as you said even if he was directly following him that doesn't give Trayvon the ok to attack him. Zimmerman allegedly "followed" Trayvon Martin. We don't know for sure. Either Zimmerman did follow him (which there is no evidence to support this other than the witness testimony of Travyon's friend which is shakey at best) or Zimmerman got out of his car to get an address for police like he said he did when he was confronted and assaulted by Trayvon. And as to the operator intructors, the operator himself testified they can't and don't give orders because then they are liable as to what happens. So it's actually their policy to not give orders. He said he suggested Zimmerman that he didn't need to do that. To the 911 operator, yes that's why I said that, because of his testimony of saying they don't give orders. I personally believe Zimmerman was following Trayvon but he was not directly chasing him. In my mind he was moving around the area to get a better idea where he ran to. My own question I have is if Trayvon felt that this creepy ass cracker was a rapist or some type of threat, I wonder why he didn't continue to run and keep his distance, and get to his family members house. I used to live in a bad neighborhood, and I remember a guy was following me in his car late at night. I was getting a bad vibe but I didn't know if I was being paranoid — like, maybe he just need directions. I stopped walking, and he rolled down his window and asked me if I wanted to get in. Grrrrrrroooooooooooossssss. In retrospect I should have got off the sidewalk and tried to lose him, but hey — he looked like Wilford Brimley? How dangerous can a creepy old white man be, right? I know you can't prove that race was a factor in Zimmerman's case, but who are we kidding? I'm honest enough with myself to admit if it was a young black man following me in his car, I probably would have ran and not stopped at all. Whats leads you to believe if in fact you do, that Zimmerman purposely signaled out Trayvon because he was black and only because he was black? I say to the people who accuse Zimmerman of cold blood racial murder, why in the world would he call 911? Why would he stay around after the shooting? Why would he not just shoot Trayvon right away? Oh, I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of racially motivated murder. I think Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity, which was probably racially motivated. I can't prove the latter, though. I'm just curious, and would like to know your reasoning as to why you think it was probably racially motivated.
Because I seriously doubt that if Trayvon had his hoodie down that Zimmerman would have found him any less suspicious. And I think if Trayvon was a 5'5 goth girl he didn't recognize he would have reacted or approached the situation differently.
I don't think Zimmerman is racist. I just think people judge people based on their appearance, consciously or not.
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On June 29 2013 16:49 ConGee wrote:
To anyone with a law background:
How objective is Legal Insurrection in criticizing the approach of the State? I just went through the recaps for the past 5 days and they all more or less completely slam the State's prosecution. Wanted to know if the site had some established bias or that the prosecution had literally been quite that bad.
It's not so much their approach. The witnesses saw or didn't see what they saw or didn't see. Their case was fucked from the start, should have never been prosecuted, and this is simply the result of a case that is only prosecuted because of outside public pressure. Each prosecution witness has actually helped the defense more than the prosecution, but that's not because prosecutors are bad, but again, it's just what the evidence is.
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On June 29 2013 12:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 12:38 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 12:24 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 12:11 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 11:55 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 11:47 Esk23 wrote:On June 29 2013 11:40 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 11:34 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2013 10:33 Zenocide wrote:On June 29 2013 10:11 Defacer wrote:[quote] Zimmerman is probably not guilty of anything but being stupid and human — kind of like this poster. Zimmerman stalked and treated a teenager like a criminal because he was black, and tragedy and calamity ensued. But yeah, race had a lot to do with this situation even happening, which is why people are invested in it. + Show Spoiler + I find it hard to believe that a person with the intent of stalking another would call 911 to report suspicious activity. Stalkers don't normally call 911 while they are stalking. Didn't the 911 operator instruct George Zimmerman NOT to follow Trayvon? Maybe 'stalking' is the wrong word. But Zimmerman did something dumb. You can test this going out tonight, and silently follow a woman or black kid or anyone else for ten minutes on the street and see how they react. Obviously I think Zimmerman didn't deserve to get attacked for what he did, but ... yeah. I get it. I've been followed by creepy old dudes when I was a younger — and my natural reaction was to ball up my keys in my fist and get ready to fight. The 911 operator did not, and can not give direct orders. Maybe he was a bit over zealous in his intent to find out which way Trayvon Martin went, but just as you said even if he was directly following him that doesn't give Trayvon the ok to attack him. Zimmerman allegedly "followed" Trayvon Martin. We don't know for sure. Either Zimmerman did follow him (which there is no evidence to support this other than the witness testimony of Travyon's friend which is shakey at best) or Zimmerman got out of his car to get an address for police like he said he did when he was confronted and assaulted by Trayvon. And as to the operator intructors, the operator himself testified they can't and don't give orders because then they are liable as to what happens. So it's actually their policy to not give orders. He said he suggested Zimmerman that he didn't need to do that. To the 911 operator, yes that's why I said that, because of his testimony of saying they don't give orders. I personally believe Zimmerman was following Trayvon but he was not directly chasing him. In my mind he was moving around the area to get a better idea where he ran to. My own question I have is if Trayvon felt that this creepy ass cracker was a rapist or some type of threat, I wonder why he didn't continue to run and keep his distance, and get to his family members house. I used to live in a bad neighborhood, and I remember a guy was following me in his car late at night. I was getting a bad vibe but I didn't know if I was being paranoid — like, maybe he just need directions. I stopped walking, and he rolled down his window and asked me if I wanted to get in. Grrrrrrroooooooooooossssss. In retrospect I should have got off the sidewalk and tried to lose him, but hey — he looked like Wilford Brimley? How dangerous can a creepy old white man be, right? I know you can't prove that race was a factor in Zimmerman's case, but who are we kidding? I'm honest enough with myself to admit if it was a young black man following me in his car, I probably would have ran and not stopped at all. Whats leads you to believe if in fact you do, that Zimmerman purposely signaled out Trayvon because he was black and only because he was black? I say to the people who accuse Zimmerman of cold blood racial murder, why in the world would he call 911? Why would he stay around after the shooting? Why would he not just shoot Trayvon right away? Oh, I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of racially motivated murder. I think Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity, which was probably racially motivated. I can't prove the latter, though. since you cant prove it maybe you should stop spouting that it was race related. nobody cares about admittedly unsupported theories.
Oh I forgot, the reason you're so invested in this trial is because you find all random cases about self-defense fascinating.
The only reason this trial is news is because it — unfairly or not — reinforces the perception that Black people are demonized and that the law is stacked against them.
Whether this case specifically validates this perception or not is why anyone gives a shit about it.
What I find fascinating about this trial isn't just 'the truth,' but people's passionate reaction to it on all sides. People are invested in the outcome because it will validate their worldview, whether it be that "Black kids are thugs" or "White people are secretly racist" or "Sometimes bad shit happens to good (or at least average) people."
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On June 29 2013 17:09 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 16:49 ConGee wrote:
To anyone with a law background:
How objective is Legal Insurrection in criticizing the approach of the State? I just went through the recaps for the past 5 days and they all more or less completely slam the State's prosecution. Wanted to know if the site had some established bias or that the prosecution had literally been quite that bad. It's not so much their approach. The witnesses saw or didn't see what they saw or didn't see. Their case was fucked from the start, should have never been prosecuted, and this is simply the result of a case that is only prosecuted because of outside public pressure. Each prosecution witness has actually helped the defense more than the prosecution, but that's not because prosecutors are bad, but again, it's just what the evidence is.
Sorry, should have phrased it better. But basically, saying that the case couldn't be going much worse for the prosecution would be spot on?
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EPT
