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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
1-How do the people who can't afford healthcare pay for it? Is it subsidized by government? Do the healthcare companies take the hit? 2-How does this affect the deficit? 3-How does this affect premiums? 4-Aren't we putting in a bunch of higher risk people into the pool? Would this raise costs? | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:36 LaughingTulkas wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread, this is just my reaction. The main issue for me here is that unprecedented expansion of the governments power. Basically, the government now has the right to demand money from me (tax) when I don't do what they want me to do. Sure, right now it's healthcare, which is a good thing. I'm not mad about it being healthcare. But the precedent is now set that they can do this for whatever they see fit. There's nothing to stop them from demanding I pay them money if I don't by HoTS, or any other private product sold by a private company. I'm not saying they will do this, but the power is now theirs to control, and with human nature being what it is, its more than likely it's only a matter of time before such power gets abused. These are the liberties we are giving up, and who knows when the price will need to be paid. (I am all for having everyone have healthcare, especially those who want it but can't afford it, but there has to be a better solution than forcing under penalty of law those who don't want to buy it, especially at the cost of giving the government such control over our lives.) If we had this much trouble mandating health insurance, can you imagine what kind of shitstorm a HoTS tax would make? Theoretically it would be possible but realistically I doubt anyone would be able to pass that kind of law in congress. BTW you already pay more taxes when you don't do what they want you to do, but just in the form of not getting deductions. Don't have charitable deductions? Pay more taxes. Do you rent instead of have a mortgage? Pay more taxes. Don't have kids? Pay more taxes. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:40 ackbar wrote: The government has always had the right to demand money from you in the form of taxes. And the government has always had the right to tax you and make you pay for things you dont like, use or agree with. This really doesn't change that. For instance, I have a moral objection to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, yet I fund them. But those taxes are when I DO something, like buy a product, or earn income. This is a tax on me, sitting here, doing nothing. Simply because they want me to do something. It's fundamentally different. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:41 ZeaL. wrote: If we had this much trouble mandating health insurance, can you imagine what kind of shitstorm a HoTS tax would make? Theoretically it would be possible but realistically I doubt anyone would be able to pass that kind of law in congress. BTW you already pay more taxes when you don't do what they want you to do, but just in the form of not getting deductions. Don't have charitable deductions? Pay more taxes. Do you rent instead of have a mortgage? Pay more taxes. Don't have kids? Pay more taxes. I don't disagree with you, all those things are wrong as well, but you have to agree that deductions are different. If I'm unemployed I don't have to pay income taxes, and therefore those deductions don't apply to me. Even if my spouse earns all the income and pays those, I personally don't have to. But as long as our household income is a certain level, I get an extra tax for sitting at home, playing SC. (Disclaimer: situation is hypothetical only). edit: Also, all it would take to pass some law like that is a charismatic, popular leader with a cause. More likely than a HoTS tax might be a tax on people who don't have hybrid cars, or register with the police as a anti-terrorism thing, or some other such cause. Now that the government has the power to do this, history suggests that power will eventually be abused. | ||
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
Maybe the average Joe will see an increase in costs, but on the other hand it also guarantees him full healthcare services even if he loses his job (which isn't all that unlikely nowadays) or something else happens. I cannot really comment on the government or political issues in the US regarding this topic, but the health care system itself is awesome. It gives security in one of the most important areas in life, and that is your own health, no matter how big your monthly paycheck is. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17833 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:36 LaughingTulkas wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread, this is just my reaction. The main issue for me here is that unprecedented expansion of the governments power. Basically, the government now has the right to demand money from me (tax) when I don't do what they want me to do. Sure, right now it's healthcare, which is a good thing. I'm not mad about it being healthcare. But the precedent is now set that they can do this for whatever they see fit. There's nothing to stop them from demanding I pay them money if I don't by HoTS, or any other private product sold by a private company. I'm not saying they will do this, but the power is now theirs to control, and with human nature being what it is, its more than likely it's only a matter of time before such power gets abused. These are the liberties we are giving up, and who knows when the price will need to be paid. (I am all for having everyone have healthcare, especially those who want it but can't afford it, but there has to be a better solution than forcing under penalty of law those who don't want to buy it, especially at the cost of giving the government such control over our lives.) Is everyone in the US so paranoid about government having some actual power? As I see it, one of the biggest problems the US are facing now is that they got blinded by capitalism too much which led to overgrowth of private sector and now they need to fix it by taking some of it back into public sector. I know that words like "socialism" scare the hell out of Americans but you need to understand that socialism=/=communism and some of it is actually good. Even if I were to take my own country as an example, where we have free healthcare and government-controlled pension system (if you work a % of your income is automatically added to your pension, the same with healthcare), which aren't perfect as there's constantly some problems with it, but they work. After all, if you make more money you can use it to get better healthcare by purchasing insurances from private companies, better pension by investing your money wisely etc. But the best example would be the schools. Most of the schools and universities in Poland are public, completely free and much better than private ones, which cost a lot. This is beneficial for the country as you get qualified workers who aren't in horrible debt at the start of their career. Really guys, if you don't trust your own government, then why would it trust you? Put some faith in it and maybe things will start moving towards a better future. Democracy at its finest... | ||
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ackbar
United States94 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:41 DoubleReed wrote: Got into an argument with a conservative friend and I was wondering the following questions. I was hoping my fellow TLers could help real quick. 1-How do the people who can't afford healthcare pay for it? Is it subsidized by government? Do the healthcare companies take the hit? 2-How does this affect the deficit? 3-How does this affect premiums? 4-Aren't we putting in a bunch of higher risk people into the pool? Would this raise costs? 1- Government gives deep tax breaks for people who *really* cant afford it. 2- Shouldn't affect the deficit according to the CBO. 3- Ideally it will reduce premiums. Since Obamacare started being instituted, premiums have increased at a slower rate. Our premiums go up largeley because the uninsured STILL get health care, they just don't pay for it. For instance, they go to the ER, get their meds, then dont pay the bill. That cost is dumped on the rest of us. 4- There are more people in the pool (some higher risk - many not), which may increase overall costs, but will also increase the number of people paying into system. | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:36 LaughingTulkas wrote: Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread, this is just my reaction. The main issue for me here is that unprecedented expansion of the governments power. Basically, the government now has the right to demand money from me (tax) when I don't do what they want me to do. Sure, right now it's healthcare, which is a good thing. I'm not mad about it being healthcare. But the precedent is now set that they can do this for whatever they see fit. There's nothing to stop them from demanding I pay them money if I don't by HoTS, or any other private product sold by a private company. I'm not saying they will do this, but the power is now theirs to control, and with human nature being what it is, its more than likely it's only a matter of time before such power gets abused. These are the liberties we are giving up, and who knows when the price will need to be paid. (I am all for having everyone have healthcare, especially those who want it but can't afford it, but there has to be a better solution than forcing under penalty of law those who don't want to buy it, especially at the cost of giving the government such control over our lives.) This "they reduce my freedom" is very hard to understand for me. There's a ton of things in USA that you can't do, even if you want it. It's just forbidden. Killing, stealing of course, but smoking in New York too, parking your car without paying (this one is worth, you pay or...you pay ! ^^), force feeding ducks in California, owning more than 6 sex toys in Texas (yeah, it's a real law ! I must admit that i picked this one just because it's hilarous ^^), and so many more, like in every country in the world. I don't understand how this law is different from the others  | ||
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fritfrat
United States50 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:53 Manit0u wrote: Is everyone in the US so paranoid about government having some actual power? As I see it, one of the biggest problems the US are facing now is that they got blinded by capitalism too much which led to overgrowth of private sector and now they need to fix it by taking some of it back into public sector. I know that words like "socialism" scare the hell out of Americans but you need to understand that socialism=/=communism and some of it is actually good. Even if I were to take my own country as an example, where we have free healthcare and government-controlled pension system (if you work a % of your income is automatically added to your pension, the same with healthcare), which aren't perfect as there's constantly some problems with it, but they work. After all, if you make more money you can use it to get better healthcare by purchasing insurances from private companies, better pension by investing your money wisely etc. But the best example would be the schools. Most of the schools and universities in Poland are public, completely free and much better than private ones, which cost a lot. This is beneficial for the country as you get qualified workers who aren't in horrible debt at the start of their career. Really guys, if you don't trust your own government, then why would it trust you? Put some faith in it and maybe things will start moving towards a better future. Democracy at its finest... As much as I hate to say this about my own countrymen.. but from talking to Canadian friends of mine, I think American distrust of government goes hand in hand with a higher rate of government workers wanting to abuse the system, work as little as possible, embezzle, etc. since they don't have a respected role in the first place. Put another way, the same government-run system from another country run by Americans would "somehow" find more cost overruns and less efficiency. Kind of like gun control.. it would be great if no one had guns and we could make it more strict, but guns are everywhere here and virtually all criminals have them, so outlawing them only affects the honest citizen. Don't mean to derail, just making a comparison on how some laws and systems that work in other countries don't really work with the culture of others, without judging that culture. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:53 Manit0u wrote: Is everyone in the US so paranoid about government having some actual power? As I see it, one of the biggest problems the US are facing now is that they got blinded by capitalism too much which led to overgrowth of private sector and now they need to fix it by taking some of it back into public sector. I know that words like "socialism" scare the hell out of Americans but you need to understand that socialism=/=communism and some of it is actually good. Even if I were to take my own country as an example, where we have free healthcare and government-controlled pension system (if you work a % of your income is automatically added to your pension, the same with healthcare), which aren't perfect as there's constantly some problems with it, but they work. After all, if you make more money you can use it to get better healthcare by purchasing insurances from private companies, better pension by investing your money wisely etc. But the best example would be the schools. Most of the schools and universities in Poland are public, completely free and much better than private ones, which cost a lot. This is beneficial for the country as you get qualified workers who aren't in horrible debt at the start of their career. Really guys, if you don't trust your own government, then why would it trust you? Put some faith in it and maybe things will start moving towards a better future. Democracy at its finest... If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat its mistakes. I would humbly submit that governments throughout the entire history of man, including democracies, do not have a good track record of being trustworthy institutions. European countries are really not ones to talk either, I'm sure the Greek people put their faith in their government to provide for them, and certainly gave them the power to do it, but right now I think everyone agrees no matter what happens, the Greek people are screwed. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On June 29 2012 22:01 fritfrat wrote: As much as I hate to say this about my own countrymen.. but from talking to Canadian friends of mine, I think American distrust of government goes hand in hand with a higher rate of government workers wanting to abuse the system, work as little as possible, embezzle, etc. since they don't have a respected role in the first place. Put another way, the same government-run system from another country run by Americans would "somehow" find more cost overruns and less efficiency. Kind of like gun control.. it would be great if no one had guns and we could make it more strict, but guns are everywhere here and virtually all criminals have them, so outlawing them only affects the honest citizen. Don't mean to derail, just making a comparison on how some laws and systems that work in other countries don't really work with the culture of others, without judging that culture. I don't think this is true. Look at government workers in Greece/France. US might be worse than Canada/Nordic countries, but other countries are MUCH worse even with more socialism. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:57 Agathon wrote: This "they reduce my freedom" is very hard to understand for me. There's a ton of things in USA that you can't do, even if you want it. It's just forbidden. Killing, stealing of course, but smoking in New York too, parking your car without paying (this one is worth, you pay or...you pay ! ^^), force feeding ducks in California, owning more than 6 sex toys in Texas (yeah, it's a real law ! I must admit that i picked this one just because it's hilarous ^^), and so many more, like in every country in the world. I don't understand how this law is different from the others Before could they tax me for NOT buying sex toys? or for NOT smoking? Now they can, if they want to. Fundamental difference. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4440 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:26 paralleluniverse wrote: This has become a zombie idea. No matter how many times it gets debunked, people still repeat it despite the fact that its completely untrue. Read my posts starting here and the subsequent arguments that happens over the following few pages: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322937¤tpage=53#1057 Funny to see an Australian against Obamacare. You want to end our Medicare too? Lol economics 101.... thousands of small business will shrink or close their doors due to the healthcare provisions and extra costs added.Tax take will fall.Pretty basic stuff we are talking about here. As to ending medicare yes i believe it should be ended.Removing added costs and taxes involved with public health systems would stimulate the economy and allow more people to purchase private health cover.Private health cover should be assessed on a per person basis with overweight people paying more , smokers paying more etc rather than the system we have where healthy people subsidise diabetes medication for fat slobs who eat cakes all day and don't exercise. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:54 ackbar wrote: 1- Government gives deep tax breaks for people who *really* cant afford it. 2- Shouldn't affect the deficit according to the CBO. 3- Ideally it will reduce premiums. Since Obamacare started being instituted, premiums have increased at a slower rate. Our premiums go up largeley because the uninsured STILL get health care, they just don't pay for it. For instance, they go to the ER, get their meds, then dont pay the bill. That cost is dumped on the rest of us. 4- There are more people in the pool (some higher risk - many not), which may increase overall costs, but will also increase the number of people paying into system. which is why a single payer system is much better. basically the US half assed it, in europe you can choose to have private insurance (which costs a lot of money generally) or just use the government provided healthcare which is taken directly from your paycheck and costs next to nothing. Children are automatically covered until they leave education, not on their parents insurance but by the government. Anyone who is out of work doesn't pay either on the understanding that once they find work they will pay in to the pot. I pay about £20 a week in national insurance which covers all my health care, pays my state pension (when i eventually get to that age) and pays for any benefits i might need if I lose my job etc. So for £20 a week, or less than 10% of my wages I get all my healthcare, pension and benefits. Thats a pretty good deal imo. If I choose to I can get private healthcare, a private pension and save up for in case of losing my job (which I do all of except for healthcare). The only healthcare expenses I pay about £14 for a dental check up, £48 if I need any fillings or teeth removed (btw thats £48 for the whole thing, even if I need 8 teeth pulled and 4 fillings) and £7.65 for a medication prescription. I rarely need to see a doctor, I don't recieve any benefits and I have a private pension, but knowing in the event that I become unable to provide for myself that I'm taken care of by my fellow brits makes me feel very proud of the country I live in. I would be utterly ashamed of my country if we spent time arguing about whether or not socialised medicine was constitutional, because a piece of paper written before the discovery of even penicillin has absolutely no relevence on the world we live in. Americans should stop referring to it like its the be all and end all... the framers of it understood that I was just to spell out the MOST IMPORTANT rights, not to limit others and americans seem to have forgotten that. Every other western country has a constitution and we never once hear the term "is this constitutional?" and guess what... we have all the things you have plus a lot more. Never once in my country will someone poor die because they couldn't afford healthcare or because someone else spent their life dedicated to getting rid of socialised medicine. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4440 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:53 Manit0u wrote: Really guys, if you don't trust your own government, then why would it trust you? Put some faith in it and maybe things will start moving towards a better future. Democracy at its finest... Trust in government? Like when Bush said there were WMDs in Iraq? Like when Obama said he would close Gitmo? Like when the government said the 2000 election was above board? Like when the government said Fukushima was safe after they raised the acceptable radiation hundreds of times what it was previously? Like when Donald Rumsfeld said he had never heard about building 7 coming down on 9/11? Give it a rest dude , people are sick of the government and their lies i just wish more people here would wake up. Is everyone in the US so paranoid about government having some actual power? As I see it, one of the biggest problems the US are facing now is that they got blinded by capitalism too much which led to overgrowth of private sector and now they need to fix it by taking some of it back into public sector. I know that words like "socialism" scare the hell out of Americans but you need to understand that socialism=/=communism and some of it is actually good. Just reiterating what i have said many times here , under a capitalist model banks like JP Morgan would no longer exist , they would have gone bankrupt.There would have been no bank bailouts.US Deficit alone would be 2 trillion+ smaller without the bank bailouts.US system is not capitalist anymore it is corporatist.People bail out the banks but recieve none of the benefits when those banks make a profit , thats not capitalism.... | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17833 Posts
On June 29 2012 22:02 LaughingTulkas wrote: If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat its mistakes. I would humbly submit that governments throughout the entire history of man, including democracies, do not have a good track record of being trustworthy institutions. European countries are really not ones to talk either, I'm sure the Greek people put their faith in their government to provide for them, and certainly gave them the power to do it, but right now I think everyone agrees no matter what happens, the Greek people are screwed. Well, the Greek government did provide for its people by getting them into Eurozone through obfuscation of the real extent of their public debt. Greece, especially the tourism sector which is pretty big there, has benefited a lot from it. Unfortunately, there came the global financial crisis and because of their previous lie the Greek economy couldn't handle it, which led to the position they're in now. Once again I'll point towards my own country and our government, which made some very unpopular decisions over the past years, introducing unwanted reforms to healthcare system, pension system and so on and on. People were pretty outraged by this reforms, sure, but all of that allowed us to glide effortlessly through the crisis when everyone else around us, including the best European economies, were struggling and only started introducing similar reforms when it was too late. Of course, there are things that the government does that I don't like, hell, I don't even like most of our politicians, but I can't really complain as my standard of life hasn't decreased in the past years, on the contrary (and note that I'm a man with 2 children, wife, job, bank loan etc.), it just keeps getting better and better. There are many whiners though, and media will spin anything for publicity, increasing outrage among those less educated and people who can't see past their own needs at the moment. Some moves the government makes are designed for generations ahead, some of which we won't even see in our lifetime, so that our children and grandchildren won't have to worry about it. Don't look at every decision from the "now" perspective, try to think what can be the long term goal for it. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 29 2012 22:02 LaughingTulkas wrote: If you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat its mistakes. I would humbly submit that governments throughout the entire history of man, including democracies, do not have a good track record of being trustworthy institutions. European countries are really not ones to talk either, I'm sure the Greek people put their faith in their government to provide for them, and certainly gave them the power to do it, but right now I think everyone agrees no matter what happens, the Greek people are screwed. The Greek people are screwed because they refuse to pay taxes and their government doesn't have the power to compel them to. Tax evasion is the norm in Greece precisely because their government is too powerless. Because of this, your example of Greece actually works against you.  | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On June 29 2012 22:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Lol economics 101.... thousands of small business will shrink or close their doors due to the healthcare provisions and extra costs added.Tax take will fall.Pretty basic stuff we are talking about here. Economists already did the analysis, and concluded that's not what will happen. Try actually reading his excellently written and cited posts instead of spouting bullshit. | ||
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Good thing the USA isn't in a 15 trillion dollar debt hole and they can easily afford this policy. Whats next on Obamas policy radar? Maybe closing Guantanamo Bay like he promised when he won the election back in 08'? Deadline over two years now and counting..... Balls in your court Obama. A 15 trillion dollar debt hole is pretty big. Good thing we have a 15 trillion dollar GPD ladder to help climb out of it with. Big scary numbers don't mean much without context. The debt-to-GDP ratio we have now is the same we had in WWII. Being that both events, the war and the 2008 financial crisis, were pretty big world changing events this isn't an unfathomable position to be in nor is it an unfathomable position to get out of, we've done it once before. But to answer your question, here's how we can afford the policy: Summary of tax increases for funding Obamacare Broaden Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers: $210.2 billion Annual fee on health insurance providers: $60 billion 40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500: $32 billion Impose annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs: $27 billion Impose 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices: $20 billion Raise 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%: $15.2 billion Limit contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500: $13 billion All other revenue sources: $14.9 billion source: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0321/Health-care-reform-bill-101-Who-will-pay-for-reform Also, what is the point you're making about Guantanamo? Is it disappointing that a promise made during a campaign wasn't kept? Yes, these things happen, no president has a record of 100% in keeping campaign promises. But I think most people will agree that healthcare for all was a much greater and important promise than shutting down a prison for suspected terrorists. Some more facts: 61% of Obama's promises made were either kept or are still in the works. 12% were kept but included a compromise in some way with the GOP, and only 14% were broken. Pretty fantastic record overall if you ask me. source: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/ | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On June 29 2012 14:27 FabledIntegral wrote: Well they probably didn't have enough insurance! A huge factor to be considered, and is mentioned in that report, is that some bankruptcies were due in part not due to the medical costs, but the loss of income due to the hospitalization/medical issues. That's what really seems to get people. Also realize that statistic was taken in 2007 - it said it was either mainly due to loss of income or because they mortgaged their houses to pay the medical expenses. If you've done that, there is significant incentive to file bankruptcy after the housing crash during that year. Of course, you could argue they shouldn't have to mortgage their houses in the first place. I was just commenting that's probably the reason for the abnormally high amount in 2007. The earliest estimates say the recession started at the very end of 2007 full blown crash got rolling in 2008, so that has little to do with this study. For the record I would, and will argue that medical bankruptcies should not be a thing. To those arguing about bureaucratic organizations being added to health care... what the hell do you call insurance companies? They nickel and dime their customers constantly. Forcing them to take on co-pays, get cheaper medications that may not be as effective, force pre-authorizations, only allow you to use certain health care providers, and generally provide unequal care. Sounds like we already have a health care system with a massive bureaucracy damaging our ability to receive the best health care, the only problem is it causes half of all bankruptcies in the country at the same time and we pay way more for it than other developed nations while the insurance companies refuse to help anyone who is sick and has no insurance (pre-existing conditions) until the government forced them. For people wondering what this means for people with pre-existing conditions, they are able to find insurance through a combination of government subsidization and the improved economies of scale from the mandate, 30 million people is a lot of new customers and most of them are healthy. The exchange pools help in terms of bargaining but the primary effect that makes it work is the subsidies and the mandate to make it finincially feasible for insurance companies who are now kind of regulated like utilities. | ||
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