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The Affordable Healthcare Act in the U.S. Supreme Court -…

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This topic is not about the American Invasion of Iraq. Stop. - Page 23
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 25 2012 00:18 GMT
#381
dear christian majority of america,

love thy neighbor?
starleague forever
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
March 25 2012 00:29 GMT
#382
On March 25 2012 09:18 a176 wrote:
dear christian majority of america,

love thy neighbor?

-_-

Love thy neighbor, by buying health insurance??? Come on now...
Gluon
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands381 Posts
March 25 2012 00:45 GMT
#383
On March 25 2012 08:38 liberal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 06:03 methematics wrote:
From an economic standpoint i hope this doesn't become law. From a law standpoint idk where it will go but with our freedoms being striped left and right im seriously weary of larger government. Its amazing how both right and left politicians are pointing the way to tyranny like this. Bush => patriot act = destroys 4th amendment. Obama => indefinite detention act = destroys the 5th and 6th amendments. Larger government with less individual freedom is a dangerous path to down, and like i said its both left and right parties doing it no matter what rhetoric they say.

Exactly this. The right wing in America imposes more government control through corporatism, militarism, and reduced civil liberties. The left wing imposes more government control through greater economic control, regulation, and taxation. Neither side succeeds in rolling back the extensions of power of the other party.

This is why it makes no difference which party gets elected. They are both inching us towards statism and totalitarianism. I usually think at some point the American people will wake up to this fact, until I see so many posts like this:

Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't believe in anything as old as the constitution. Its outdated and has absolutely no intrinsic meaning to me.

Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 01:49 FallDownMarigold wrote:
If it's unconstitutional, could an exception be made if it's something really beneficial? Not implying that it is beneficial or not, but "what if"

Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 02:40 bblack wrote:
For some reason those guys seem to feel that their constitution is holy and all should abide by it.

Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 04:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Obama's health care reform isn't constitutional? Oh. Well, lets look at the pros and cons and decide, not base it on the constitution.

Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 23:23 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't think the constitution should ever stand in the way of something that causes a net benefit.


I blame the educational system for failing to teach the people something as basic and as obvious as the importance of enumerated powers.

Forgive me, but I fail to see your point?
It makes no difference which party gets elected, ok.
You further state some conspiracy theories about corporatism and statism and all that, without any arguments?
And then you feel like the Americans should have 'realized' this by now, but:, and then you quote a few people talking about the constitution. What exactly is the link that I am missing?
Administrator
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
March 25 2012 00:55 GMT
#384
On March 25 2012 09:45 bblack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 08:38 liberal wrote:
On March 25 2012 06:03 methematics wrote:
From an economic standpoint i hope this doesn't become law. From a law standpoint idk where it will go but with our freedoms being striped left and right im seriously weary of larger government. Its amazing how both right and left politicians are pointing the way to tyranny like this. Bush => patriot act = destroys 4th amendment. Obama => indefinite detention act = destroys the 5th and 6th amendments. Larger government with less individual freedom is a dangerous path to down, and like i said its both left and right parties doing it no matter what rhetoric they say.

Exactly this. The right wing in America imposes more government control through corporatism, militarism, and reduced civil liberties. The left wing imposes more government control through greater economic control, regulation, and taxation. Neither side succeeds in rolling back the extensions of power of the other party.

This is why it makes no difference which party gets elected. They are both inching us towards statism and totalitarianism. I usually think at some point the American people will wake up to this fact, until I see so many posts like this:

On March 24 2012 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't believe in anything as old as the constitution. Its outdated and has absolutely no intrinsic meaning to me.

On March 24 2012 01:49 FallDownMarigold wrote:
If it's unconstitutional, could an exception be made if it's something really beneficial? Not implying that it is beneficial or not, but "what if"

On March 24 2012 02:40 bblack wrote:
For some reason those guys seem to feel that their constitution is holy and all should abide by it.

On March 24 2012 04:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Obama's health care reform isn't constitutional? Oh. Well, lets look at the pros and cons and decide, not base it on the constitution.

On March 24 2012 23:23 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't think the constitution should ever stand in the way of something that causes a net benefit.


I blame the educational system for failing to teach the people something as basic and as obvious as the importance of enumerated powers.

Forgive me, but I fail to see your point?
It makes no difference which party gets elected, ok.
You further state some conspiracy theories about corporatism and statism and all that, without any arguments?
And then you feel like the Americans should have 'realized' this by now, but:, and then you quote a few people talking about the constitution. What exactly is the link that I am missing?

I thought my point was very clear... The US is slowly moving towards statism and totalitarianism. It's not a "conspiracy," it's simply a consequence of people being ignorant of the importance of strictly enumerated powers in a government. The constitution's purpose is to enumerate federal powers, which is why I brought up the quotes of people disregarding it to prove my point.
Gluon
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands381 Posts
March 25 2012 01:08 GMT
#385
On March 25 2012 09:55 liberal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 09:45 bblack wrote:
On March 25 2012 08:38 liberal wrote:
On March 25 2012 06:03 methematics wrote:
From an economic standpoint i hope this doesn't become law. From a law standpoint idk where it will go but with our freedoms being striped left and right im seriously weary of larger government. Its amazing how both right and left politicians are pointing the way to tyranny like this. Bush => patriot act = destroys 4th amendment. Obama => indefinite detention act = destroys the 5th and 6th amendments. Larger government with less individual freedom is a dangerous path to down, and like i said its both left and right parties doing it no matter what rhetoric they say.

Exactly this. The right wing in America imposes more government control through corporatism, militarism, and reduced civil liberties. The left wing imposes more government control through greater economic control, regulation, and taxation. Neither side succeeds in rolling back the extensions of power of the other party.

This is why it makes no difference which party gets elected. They are both inching us towards statism and totalitarianism. I usually think at some point the American people will wake up to this fact, until I see so many posts like this:

On March 24 2012 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't believe in anything as old as the constitution. Its outdated and has absolutely no intrinsic meaning to me.

On March 24 2012 01:49 FallDownMarigold wrote:
If it's unconstitutional, could an exception be made if it's something really beneficial? Not implying that it is beneficial or not, but "what if"

On March 24 2012 02:40 bblack wrote:
For some reason those guys seem to feel that their constitution is holy and all should abide by it.

On March 24 2012 04:12 Mohdoo wrote:
Obama's health care reform isn't constitutional? Oh. Well, lets look at the pros and cons and decide, not base it on the constitution.

On March 24 2012 23:23 Mohdoo wrote:
I don't think the constitution should ever stand in the way of something that causes a net benefit.


I blame the educational system for failing to teach the people something as basic and as obvious as the importance of enumerated powers.

Forgive me, but I fail to see your point?
It makes no difference which party gets elected, ok.
You further state some conspiracy theories about corporatism and statism and all that, without any arguments?
And then you feel like the Americans should have 'realized' this by now, but:, and then you quote a few people talking about the constitution. What exactly is the link that I am missing?

I thought my point was very clear... The US is slowly moving towards statism and totalitarianism. It's not a "conspiracy," it's simply a consequence of people being ignorant of the importance of strictly enumerated powers in a government. The constitution's purpose is to enumerate federal powers, which is why I brought up the quotes of people disregarding it to prove my point.

Perhaps, time will tell. From my point of view it does seem like people in the US tend to be more afraid of their government.
Ah well, let's see what happens
Administrator
OsmOse
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada18 Posts
March 25 2012 01:13 GMT
#386
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 01:20:18
March 25 2012 01:19 GMT
#387

You further state some conspiracy theories about corporatism and statism and all that, without any arguments?
And then you feel like the Americans should have 'realized' this by now, but:, and then you quote a few people talking about the constitution. What exactly is the link that I am missing?



These are not consipracy theories. Once Dick Cheyney became VP, things really began to roll- although it was in motion before that. Cheyney has always been well-known for his stance on increasing the powers of the Executive Branch (ffs it has been one of his top career goals). I thought this was common knowledge? The system of Checks and Balances has been shit on ever since, and although both parties are to blame, this is mainly a Republican influence (despite the party's rhetorical droning about the Founding Fathers' inentions). Looking at any of the main players in the GOP, they are all for increasing the powers of the Executive Branch, but the biggest supporter of this on the extreme is Dick Cheyney. Out of all the grievances brought about by today's political players, the using of the Constitution as toilet paper (in systemic issues) has been most grievous by the GOP.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
HyperLink
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada172 Posts
March 25 2012 01:58 GMT
#388
On March 25 2012 09:29 liberal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 09:18 a176 wrote:
dear christian majority of america,

love thy neighbor?

-_-

Love thy neighbor, by buying health insurance??? Come on now...

Why not try the sharing of the food to feed the 5000? It's recorded in all four gospels (John 26:1-14; Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:32-44; Luke 9:10-17) so shouldn't that be important...? Moral of the story, share what you have so everyone can be better off...
A woman is a lot like a refrigerator. 6 feet tall, 300 pounds... it makes ice.
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
March 25 2012 02:28 GMT
#389
On March 25 2012 10:58 HyperLink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 09:29 liberal wrote:
On March 25 2012 09:18 a176 wrote:
dear christian majority of america,

love thy neighbor?

-_-

Love thy neighbor, by buying health insurance??? Come on now...

Why not try the sharing of the food to feed the 5000? It's recorded in all four gospels (John 26:1-14; Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:32-44; Luke 9:10-17) so shouldn't that be important...? Moral of the story, share what you have so everyone can be better off...

The Affordable Care Act has absolutely nothing to do with "sharing." We are discussing the constitutionality of the individual mandate, not some kind of philosophical or ethical argument for socialized medicine.
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 03:28:15
March 25 2012 03:26 GMT
#390
Earlier in this thread I made a post about a universal healthcare amendement. I wonder what your thoughts on that is, liberal? That wouldn't be unconstitutional. It would be the "correct" way of making a change to the federal government, unless you think some of the previous amendments like the federal income tax one and alcohol prohibiton were unconstitutional as well.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
Chunhyang
Profile Joined December 2011
Bangladesh1389 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 05:07:09
March 25 2012 05:06 GMT
#391
On March 25 2012 11:28 liberal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 10:58 HyperLink wrote:
On March 25 2012 09:29 liberal wrote:
On March 25 2012 09:18 a176 wrote:
dear christian majority of america,

love thy neighbor?

-_-

Love thy neighbor, by buying health insurance??? Come on now...

Why not try the sharing of the food to feed the 5000? It's recorded in all four gospels (John 26:1-14; Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:32-44; Luke 9:10-17) so shouldn't that be important...? Moral of the story, share what you have so everyone can be better off...

The Affordable Care Act has absolutely nothing to do with "sharing." We are discussing the constitutionality of the individual mandate, not some kind of philosophical or ethical argument for socialized medicine.


Ethics and public policy do in fact sway judges, no matter how much they try to stick to the law's letter. A discussion on the rightness or wrongness of sharing the burden is never completely off topic.

Does the word "Obamacare" sound good to you guys? It seems like a word coined by people opposed to the healthcare reform, and thus by linking it to Obama, it comes out that you are automatically an Obama supporter if you in any way shape or form support this.
If you could reason with haters, there would be no haters. YGTMYFT
Lockitupv2
Profile Joined March 2012
United States496 Posts
March 25 2012 14:08 GMT
#392
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?
That's right folks, I definitely heard an ethnic twang in that voice, so everyone put your guesses on the screen. It's everyone's favorite game, it's Guess the Minority!!!
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
March 25 2012 14:38 GMT
#393
On March 25 2012 23:08 Lockitupv2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?


So I heard sources are good for redicolous claims.
Lockitupv2
Profile Joined March 2012
United States496 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 14:55:28
March 25 2012 14:54 GMT
#394
On March 25 2012 23:38 HellRoxYa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 23:08 Lockitupv2 wrote:
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?


So I heard sources are good for redicolous claims.



watch the rest of the video, or the whole series if you like.
That's right folks, I definitely heard an ethnic twang in that voice, so everyone put your guesses on the screen. It's everyone's favorite game, it's Guess the Minority!!!
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 16:48:58
March 25 2012 16:44 GMT
#395
On March 25 2012 23:54 Lockitupv2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 23:38 HellRoxYa wrote:
On March 25 2012 23:08 Lockitupv2 wrote:
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?


So I heard sources are good for redicolous claims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7XsRzfckneg#t=102s

watch the rest of the video, or the whole series if you like.

Ancedotal evidence, much like how Michael Moore shows anecdotes for the other side.

Medical tourism is like any other trade - it has both imports and exports. You have to look at both to get a meaningful comparison, you can't just say "Canadians come to the US for health care, therefore US health care is superior." That's like pointing out that China buys lots of US products, therefore the US must have a stronger export sector. Wrong.

In 2007, an estimated 60-85k foreigners visited the United States for health care. That same year, an estimated 750k Americans visited foreign countries for health care. The market seems to think better services are available elsewhere.
http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Mapping_the_market_for_travel_2134

[edit - if the registration blocks you, this article talks a little about it
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/03/BUGA121GPF.DTL&type=health ]
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-25 17:35:49
March 25 2012 17:29 GMT
#396
On March 26 2012 01:44 Signet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 23:54 Lockitupv2 wrote:
On March 25 2012 23:38 HellRoxYa wrote:
On March 25 2012 23:08 Lockitupv2 wrote:
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?


So I heard sources are good for redicolous claims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7XsRzfckneg#t=102s

watch the rest of the video, or the whole series if you like.

Ancedotal evidence, much like how Michael Moore shows anecdotes for the other side.

Medical tourism is like any other trade - it has both imports and exports. You have to look at both to get a meaningful comparison, you can't just say "Canadians come to the US for health care, therefore US health care is superior." That's like pointing out that China buys lots of US products, therefore the US must have a stronger export sector. Wrong.

In 2007, an estimated 60-85k foreigners visited the United States for health care. That same year, an estimated 750k Americans visited foreign countries for health care. The market seems to think better services are available elsewhere.
http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Mapping_the_market_for_travel_2134

[edit - if the registration blocks you, this article talks a little about it
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/03/BUGA121GPF.DTL&type=health ]

There's no way that 750k number is accurate, that sounds way too high.

From looking at the article it also says:

"I think that's very optimistic," said Towers Perrin's Taylor, who says host countries probably are inflating their reported numbers of American patients.


I agree with you though that there is rising medical tourism out of the US, because the costs abroad are so much lower. People are failing to actually assess the reasons for the higher costs and just say the solution is to expand the pool. Basically they are taxing healthy people more to reduce the costs to the unhealthy, instead of actually reducing the costs of the care itself, which is the real problem.
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
March 25 2012 19:26 GMT
#397
On March 26 2012 02:29 liberal wrote:
I agree with you though that there is rising medical tourism out of the US, because the costs abroad are so much lower. People are failing to actually assess the reasons for the higher costs and just say the solution is to expand the pool. Basically they are taxing healthy people more to reduce the costs to the unhealthy, instead of actually reducing the costs of the care itself, which is the real problem.

True, cost control and access are somewhat separate questions. And in fact better cost control would help access issues, since more people could afford coverage even without government assistance.
STYDawn
Profile Joined December 2011
137 Posts
March 26 2012 00:05 GMT
#398
The real fundamental problem is that our Health care is just ineffcient and overpriced as hell. We spend so much of our GDP for Health Care, while getting a fraction of the results of other countries with socialized medicine. But socialized medicine will change nothing as there is a corrupt corporate climate in this country that places money almost always before people. There are exceptions of course, but that is the general rule.

I agree with most of the regulations, as they will serve as a barricade from corporate greed. But I highly disagree with the penalty's and crap that will begin in 2013.
Lockitupv2
Profile Joined March 2012
United States496 Posts
March 26 2012 00:21 GMT
#399
On March 26 2012 09:05 STYDawn wrote:
The real fundamental problem is that our Health care is just ineffcient and overpriced as hell. We spend so much of our GDP for Health Care, while getting a fraction of the results of other countries with socialized medicine. But socialized medicine will change nothing as there is a corrupt corporate climate in this country that places money almost always before people. There are exceptions of course, but that is the general rule.

I agree with most of the regulations, as they will serve as a barricade from corporate greed. But I highly disagree with the penalty's and crap that will begin in 2013.


The left has done a wonderful job of instilling the idea that having money is actually bad.
That's right folks, I definitely heard an ethnic twang in that voice, so everyone put your guesses on the screen. It's everyone's favorite game, it's Guess the Minority!!!
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
March 26 2012 00:27 GMT
#400
On March 25 2012 23:08 Lockitupv2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2012 10:13 OsmOse wrote:
So happy I live in Canada. My sister lives in the US, and is still paying for her 2 children's child birth. The healthcare system down there is beyond curropt.


Oddly enough, pets and animals have better healthcare in Canada than humans. If you want something done in a timely manner, Canadians come to the US, why is that?

Shockingly, people with money are willing to go to a country that expedites their service for said money.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
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