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On March 16 2012 03:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:29 Xalorian wrote:On March 16 2012 02:58 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:
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You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.
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There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.
It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.
It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say. Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2). If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game. LOL. Casual fan base is everything to sponsors? WHAT? That's not fucking even remotely true. Viewers is everything for sponsors. They don't care about ANYTHING else. And, viewers wise, SC2 is GROWING. The fact that LoL viewers numbers is growing faster doesn't change a shit for the SC2 community in the end. SC2 is still growing and will still grow. It's not even in competition against LoL. It's not even the same type of game. People shitting and saying that SC2 is shrinking and dieing are even more retarded that those that are blindly shitting on the LoL success. SC2 is doing absolutly great, the fact that LoL pull more viewers change nothing to it. Actually, the fact that the SC2 player base is shrinking while the viewer base is growing is quite awesome and pretty much prove the fact that SC2 eSports scene is solid. Even when people stop playing it, they still watch it. And guess who sponsors are gonna fork out money to? The game with more viewers. Which game has more viewers? The game that is viewed as more "casual" and "friendly." Guess what that game is. Hint : It's not Starcraft 2. SC2's viewer numbers are growing marginally. SC2's player base is dying rapidly off. Your viewer numbers in a year or two will rapidly drop off, just like how the viewer numbers for Counter-Strike rapidly fell off except for a few thousand hardcore players. It's the same pattern that WC3 followed also, and you'd be real blind to believe that SC2 is going to sustain itself as an E-Sport for very long considering how bad the player population is right now. And the fact that League pulls in more viewers is a big thing. Right now you have a very limited amount of companies willing to sponsor events/teams/etc. To believe otherwise would be asinine. Those companies want to sponsor something that will get them the most coverage. Starcraft 2 wasn't doing it for the Koreans, so they switched to League because it is a far more popular game.
You are really full of shit, seriously.
SC2 team actually have more sponsors than LoL teams. Viewers number don't "grow" marginaly. Just look at any MLG events or Dreamhack, or Day9 stream, or IPL TAC. Yes, LoL have more viewers... why in the fucking hell should that imply that SC2 will drop or is less successful than it was? LoL success have nothing to do with SC2 success, and LoL is obviously not leeching SC2 viewers, since the viewers count is still growing despite the big rise in LoL viewers.
I'm not a fan of LoL, but I hope that it will stay popular and big for a long time, since it's good for the community money-wise and viewers-wise. I don't see how it's actually bad for SC2, at all. Actually, it will probably just push Blizzard to kick their own ass and do something about it, to share a bigger part of the cake. And that's just good for us, SC2 viewers and players.
And, no, Korea didn't switched to LoL form SC2, that's a blatant lie. Actually, the SC2 community in Korea is intact if not bigger than it was. Most people switching for something are not switching from SC2, but from BW. SC2 is not having the success that it had with BW in Korea, but the scene still lived there, and as showed by the last GSL final, is actually growing, without the help of OGN or OSL. Less success in Korea but a fucking big success story here, in the west. It's a fair trade for us, I would say and i'm perfectly fine with it.
You are just a retarded and a blind hater that don't know shit about the SC2 scene, the same way that those shitthing on LoL are haters. So please, now, just leave this whole website and never look back : no one wants retarded haters here. Go and enjoy your LoL, learn to have fun and relax, instead of vigorously shitting on everything that is not your game. I love SC2 and I enjoy SC2. I love KoF13 and follow KoF13, even tho it doesn't have that big of a success and I don't need to bitch on every other fighter games just to validate my own opinion. You can love anything you want and follow anything you want, that's all fine. A human actually mentally stable would not need to shit on a whole community just to feel better.
Don't worry for us, the SC2 scene is doing fine and will still continue to do fine for a long time. In the end, as long as I can PLAY the game I love, as long as I can follow the casters I love and the players I love, playing the game that I love, I don't fucking need it to be the best ESPORT or the MOST POPULAR GAME. I don't need validation of the mass to feel better, nor should you. If LoL is your think, that's really nice and you should be happy about the success that it have... But I don't fucking see how it's remotely linked to the SC2 scene.
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On March 16 2012 03:52 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:49 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. This sounds an awful lot like low tier play because i have never once seen a game where 24-2 lead was thrown away from one team fight. Please provide evidence of this with a vod from competitive play. If you are talking of low tier play how is it relevant to competitive play? You said "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" I showed it was wrong is all. Probably over half the lol games are determined by other factors such as positioning, composition, etc, not gold. Ad Hominem is pretty good.
Actually to your surprise I'm sure, I never made the statement "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" If you could find where i said that I would be appreciative. What I had said is that in competitive LoL a lead of 24-8 would not be thrown in one team fight. I then asked you to provide me with any VODs of such a thing happening, but you seem to have left that argument entirely.
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On March 16 2012 03:59 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:50 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap. It's easy to see why you'd think so, if we suppose that you've never tried to strive for perfection in anything. I called dota's gimmicks superficial difficulty and I stand by that. It's the type of difficulty that's obvious because it's hard to do at all, compared to the type of difficulty that's obscure because it's easy to do, but hard to perfect. Saying that a player can play a lane to perfection is ridiculous. The fact that the players have to play the lane to perfection with dozens of champions, AGAINST potentially all combinations of enemy champion + jungler, taking into account lane position, jungler threat, buy timing, which runes you have, which runes the enemy has, when to fake a gank, when to purposely make yourself appear vulnerable to ganking, your error margins against skillshots...etc...and all of that is the EASY part of the game. So no, you have a shallow understanding of the game. You are the type of person who would never begin to understand why starcraft is hard if it weren't for pro BW players already having explored all the facets and squeezed out every small mechanical advantage they could get. You're right, good thing you were around to help those BW pros how to learn the game huh? Or wait I guess you must have a shallow understanding of the game as well.. To say a human being couldn't possibly do something perfectly ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. I can also prove the solving of 5+ 5 = 10 in discrete mathematics as well, doesn't change the fact that simply performing the operation involved is cakewalk... Saying my understanding of a game is shallow because I believe it's possible to perform something perfectly is too funny to take seriously. Because whether or not I played BW at all has ANY relevance to this discussion. Holy moly your fundamental ability to process an argument is sound. There are things human can't do perfectly. This is fact. You cannot memorize 20 billion digits. You cannot run 500 miles an hour. You can perform 5+5=10. Good for you, I guess playing LoL is basically doing simple mathematics, oh wait. You have a shallow understanding of the game. You have a shallow understanding of gaming in general. The biggest problem, though, is that you have no imagination, so you instantly assume that if something is not obviously hard that it must be easy. LoL or any of these games as a whole, is a highly complex system with a few factors you can control whose optimization depends almost infinitely on factors you cannot control or even be aware of, yet still take into account when making decisions. That's where the difficulty comes in, and there's essentially no way to be perfect at it. LOL you brang in the BW relevance first after calling me shallow. Your ability to process your own arguments is beyond sound. My understanding of games is shallow? I've played top tier in nearly every popular multiplayer out there. I doubt that's the case with you. It's simple. I'm not on trial, so throwing it back on me is meaningless. Fact of the matter is, even if in fact I know nothing about BW (and I really don't), it doesn't help backup any of your statement one-single-bit, and that's why your debating skills are virtually null. I'm not on trial buddy. I stated my opinion fully and gave all my backings. Nitpick all you want. I really don't care because debating was never the point and that's all this has turned into. You all managed to show that your persistent at trying to debate but that's a pretty pointless joke for me to waste my time with.
Of course you're on trial. You gave all your backings and we're scrutinizing you. How does that make you not on trial?
It's hilarious because you throw out a bunch of opinions with (entirely false) justifications, and now you claim you aren't interested in debating.
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Also, you guys are pretending like positioning in LoL is hard :S I play LoL at a decent level and that stuff is easy as hell even i solo queue, I can't imagine the simplicity when everyone is co-ordianted and talking.
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On March 16 2012 04:00 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:52 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:49 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. This sounds an awful lot like low tier play because i have never once seen a game where 24-2 lead was thrown away from one team fight. Please provide evidence of this with a vod from competitive play. If you are talking of low tier play how is it relevant to competitive play? You said "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" I showed it was wrong is all. Probably over half the lol games are determined by other factors such as positioning, composition, etc, not gold. Ad Hominem is pretty good. Why are the conditions for the arguments always changing? If teams of equal skill are going into a teamfight with a gold difference, the one with the advantage usually wins. However suddenly one person brings up the point that you can go 24-2 in a game and still lose against a 4-6 player...isn't it obvious the teams are not of equal skill?
It wasn't part of my argument. That somewhere stopped back with the poster donkey. It's just been a clusterfuck of people flaunting their debate skills around and acting like they're making rational arguments, which I joined in and now it's somehow me changing my argument. Pointless joke. People are more interested in trying to prove themselves correct with useless debate than holding actual discussions.
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On March 16 2012 04:02 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:59 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:50 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap. It's easy to see why you'd think so, if we suppose that you've never tried to strive for perfection in anything. I called dota's gimmicks superficial difficulty and I stand by that. It's the type of difficulty that's obvious because it's hard to do at all, compared to the type of difficulty that's obscure because it's easy to do, but hard to perfect. Saying that a player can play a lane to perfection is ridiculous. The fact that the players have to play the lane to perfection with dozens of champions, AGAINST potentially all combinations of enemy champion + jungler, taking into account lane position, jungler threat, buy timing, which runes you have, which runes the enemy has, when to fake a gank, when to purposely make yourself appear vulnerable to ganking, your error margins against skillshots...etc...and all of that is the EASY part of the game. So no, you have a shallow understanding of the game. You are the type of person who would never begin to understand why starcraft is hard if it weren't for pro BW players already having explored all the facets and squeezed out every small mechanical advantage they could get. You're right, good thing you were around to help those BW pros how to learn the game huh? Or wait I guess you must have a shallow understanding of the game as well.. To say a human being couldn't possibly do something perfectly ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. I can also prove the solving of 5+ 5 = 10 in discrete mathematics as well, doesn't change the fact that simply performing the operation involved is cakewalk... Saying my understanding of a game is shallow because I believe it's possible to perform something perfectly is too funny to take seriously. Because whether or not I played BW at all has ANY relevance to this discussion. Holy moly your fundamental ability to process an argument is sound. There are things human can't do perfectly. This is fact. You cannot memorize 20 billion digits. You cannot run 500 miles an hour. You can perform 5+5=10. Good for you, I guess playing LoL is basically doing simple mathematics, oh wait. You have a shallow understanding of the game. You have a shallow understanding of gaming in general. The biggest problem, though, is that you have no imagination, so you instantly assume that if something is not obviously hard that it must be easy. LoL or any of these games as a whole, is a highly complex system with a few factors you can control whose optimization depends almost infinitely on factors you cannot control or even be aware of, yet still take into account when making decisions. That's where the difficulty comes in, and there's essentially no way to be perfect at it. LOL you brang in the BW relevance first after calling me shallow. Your ability to process your own arguments is beyond sound. My understanding of games is shallow? I've played top tier in nearly every popular multiplayer out there. I doubt that's the case with you. It's simple. I'm not on trial, so throwing it back on me is meaningless. Fact of the matter is, even if in fact I know nothing about BW (and I really don't), it doesn't help backup any of your statement one-single-bit, and that's why your debating skills are virtually null. I'm not on trial buddy. I stated my opinion fully and gave all my backings. Nitpick all you want. I really don't care because debating was never the point and that's all this has turned into. You all managed to show that your persistent at trying to debate but that's a pretty pointless joke for me to waste my time with. Of course you're on trial. You gave all your backings and we're scrutinizing you. How does that make you not on trial? It's hilarious because you throw out a bunch of opinions with (entirely false) justifications, and now you claim you aren't interested in debating.
I went for a discussion, you went to just prove me wrong. I'm not on trial because I was never part of your little game. The end.
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On March 16 2012 03:59 Cosmology wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:58 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:
[quote]
you are really trying too hard man
You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say. Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2). If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game. You gota be a troll lol, Starcraft 2 isn't that bad, you sound so stupid for calling it out like that, I think you're probably someone who is just bitter that they couldn't get any better at Starcraft 2 and instead switched to LoL.
Please put 2 in front of Starcraft. I don't like it when I can get amazing games mixed up with not so good ones. Thanks.
On March 16 2012 04:03 Cosmology wrote:
Also, you guys are pretending like positioning in LoL is hard :S I play LoL at a decent level and that stuff is easy as hell even i solo queue, I can't imagine the simplicity when everyone is co-ordianted and talking.
Yeah dude. Go be pro now. Too easy.
But if you don't want to be pro in LoL because you don't like it, that's fine. There's another game very similar to it where positioning is just as easy.
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On March 16 2012 03:53 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:52 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. It's going to bee very hard for even extremely bad/dumb players to throw a teamfight when they have a 2 big item advantage over the opposing role. That's why people call the game casual when the playerbase believes this.
It's like you've never played a team based game in your life.
Winning as a team is putting your players in a position to win. That's 90% of the game. That statement holds true in every single team based video/computer game/sport. Period.
Even the most hardcore of MOBA games DotA 2 is the EXACT same way. It is not about you rolling over the other team as an individual player. It is what you can do to put your team into a position to win. Period.
And the story about you going 24-2 as Akali and losing means you fucking blow, or the game was much closer than you thought and you were simply KSing.
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On March 16 2012 04:02 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:52 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:49 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. This sounds an awful lot like low tier play because i have never once seen a game where 24-2 lead was thrown away from one team fight. Please provide evidence of this with a vod from competitive play. If you are talking of low tier play how is it relevant to competitive play? You said "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" I showed it was wrong is all. Probably over half the lol games are determined by other factors such as positioning, composition, etc, not gold. Ad Hominem is pretty good. Actually to your surprise I'm sure, I never made the statement "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" If you could find where i said that I would be appreciative. What I had said is that in competitive LoL a lead of 24-8 would not be thrown in one team fight. I then asked you to provide me with any VODs of such a thing happening, but you seem to have left that argument entirely.
I did write it somewhere and then people started saying I changed my argument when I was debating with you so I gave up. Doesn't really matter because I wasn't trying to prove anything, I just threw my opinion out there which obviously upset some people. Rofl.
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On March 16 2012 04:07 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:02 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:52 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:49 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. This sounds an awful lot like low tier play because i have never once seen a game where 24-2 lead was thrown away from one team fight. Please provide evidence of this with a vod from competitive play. If you are talking of low tier play how is it relevant to competitive play? You said "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" I showed it was wrong is all. Probably over half the lol games are determined by other factors such as positioning, composition, etc, not gold. Ad Hominem is pretty good. Actually to your surprise I'm sure, I never made the statement "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" If you could find where i said that I would be appreciative. What I had said is that in competitive LoL a lead of 24-8 would not be thrown in one team fight. I then asked you to provide me with any VODs of such a thing happening, but you seem to have left that argument entirely. I did write it somewhere and then people started saying I changed my argument when I was debating with you so I gave up. Doesn't really matter because I wasn't trying to prove anything, I just threw my opinion out there which obviously upset some people. Rofl.
It didn't upset me.
I was very amused. Ignorance tends to that a lot. \o/
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On March 16 2012 04:04 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:00 JBright wrote:On March 16 2012 03:52 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:49 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 03:39 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:18 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?". Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not. Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever. "Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not." Unfortunately we are not "If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. 'Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight' That statement right there is what I am arguing against." we are talking about team fights and to insinuate otherwise is less than truthful. I keep giving all of my arguments support with in-game knowledge and such, but you have yet to try even once back up any of your statements with actual support. I am pleased you have finally answered my question on skill cap however unless flash has been able to maintain a 100% win rate he has not reached the skill cap because, what you and many others fail to understand is that skill cap in Multiplayer Games are determined not by the game but by the players/competition I hope this has been helpful for you. I gave it early on, team fights have too much emphasized importance. Simple.Exactly, skillcap determined by players/competition --> Flash > players/competition = Flash skillcap. If you're giving a definition to disprove at least use it to actually disprove me. Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them. Laning phase/jungling/composition of team/mind games determines who has the most gold going into the teamfight phase of the game. You're ignorant of League if you think otherwise. This coming from someone who despises League as a competitive game. That's fucking bullshit. You can be 24-2 with a massive gold advantage as a hero like Akali and get fucking ruined because the other team simply has a 4-6 rammus and end up losing after obviously carrying. I don't even see why I have to point this shit out. Teamfights in lol are a much bigger deal than concepts like laning/jungling/wtfever actually should is what im after. You can have massive disadvantages in levels and gold and then even get outplayed by the other team but still somehow, brokenly, win something that should NEVER happen. And it does in the game League of Legends, too often. This sounds an awful lot like low tier play because i have never once seen a game where 24-2 lead was thrown away from one team fight. Please provide evidence of this with a vod from competitive play. If you are talking of low tier play how is it relevant to competitive play? You said "Teamfights are determined by who has the most gold going into them" I showed it was wrong is all. Probably over half the lol games are determined by other factors such as positioning, composition, etc, not gold. Ad Hominem is pretty good. Why are the conditions for the arguments always changing? If teams of equal skill are going into a teamfight with a gold difference, the one with the advantage usually wins. However suddenly one person brings up the point that you can go 24-2 in a game and still lose against a 4-6 player...isn't it obvious the teams are not of equal skill? It wasn't part of my argument. That somewhere stopped back with the poster donkey. It's just been a clusterfuck of people flaunting their debate skills around and acting like they're making rational arguments, which I joined in and now it's somehow me changing my argument. Pointless joke. People are more interested in trying to prove themselves correct with useless debate than holding actual discussions.
At this point I think we all would understand your point of 1 late game team fight determining the entire game if you would just post evidence of such. You can't make claims and have people believe them unless you have the support to show your argument is correct. Show us a VOD, reference a match, but please just provide evidence to your claims, because you have yet to do so.
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Screw evidence DonKey_
Why would you use evidence when you can make vague overarching accusations that you can change around any time you feel like you're caught in some kind of argumentative hole?
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On March 16 2012 04:06 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:59 Cosmology wrote:On March 16 2012 02:58 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:
[quote]
You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games.
[quote]
There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game.
It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter.
It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck.
Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say. Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2). If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game. You gota be a troll lol, Starcraft 2 isn't that bad, you sound so stupid for calling it out like that, I think you're probably someone who is just bitter that they couldn't get any better at Starcraft 2 and instead switched to LoL. Please put 2 in front of Starcraft. I don't like it when I can get amazing games mixed up with not so good ones. Thanks. Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:03 Cosmology wrote:
Also, you guys are pretending like positioning in LoL is hard :S I play LoL at a decent level and that stuff is easy as hell even i solo queue, I can't imagine the simplicity when everyone is co-ordianted and talking. Yeah dude. Go be pro now. Too easy. But if you don't want to be pro in LoL because you don't like it, that's fine. There's another game very similar to it where positioning is just as easy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YbLjE.png)
Shogi!
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On March 16 2012 04:14 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:06 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 16 2012 03:59 Cosmology wrote:On March 16 2012 02:58 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:
[quote]
Wow...
There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread.
I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away.
I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say. Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2). If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game. You gota be a troll lol, Starcraft 2 isn't that bad, you sound so stupid for calling it out like that, I think you're probably someone who is just bitter that they couldn't get any better at Starcraft 2 and instead switched to LoL. Please put 2 in front of Starcraft. I don't like it when I can get amazing games mixed up with not so good ones. Thanks. On March 16 2012 04:03 Cosmology wrote:
Also, you guys are pretending like positioning in LoL is hard :S I play LoL at a decent level and that stuff is easy as hell even i solo queue, I can't imagine the simplicity when everyone is co-ordianted and talking. Yeah dude. Go be pro now. Too easy. But if you don't want to be pro in LoL because you don't like it, that's fine. There's another game very similar to it where positioning is just as easy. Shogi!
Mahjong!
Oh wait....
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On March 16 2012 04:05 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:02 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:59 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:50 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap. It's easy to see why you'd think so, if we suppose that you've never tried to strive for perfection in anything. I called dota's gimmicks superficial difficulty and I stand by that. It's the type of difficulty that's obvious because it's hard to do at all, compared to the type of difficulty that's obscure because it's easy to do, but hard to perfect. Saying that a player can play a lane to perfection is ridiculous. The fact that the players have to play the lane to perfection with dozens of champions, AGAINST potentially all combinations of enemy champion + jungler, taking into account lane position, jungler threat, buy timing, which runes you have, which runes the enemy has, when to fake a gank, when to purposely make yourself appear vulnerable to ganking, your error margins against skillshots...etc...and all of that is the EASY part of the game. So no, you have a shallow understanding of the game. You are the type of person who would never begin to understand why starcraft is hard if it weren't for pro BW players already having explored all the facets and squeezed out every small mechanical advantage they could get. You're right, good thing you were around to help those BW pros how to learn the game huh? Or wait I guess you must have a shallow understanding of the game as well.. To say a human being couldn't possibly do something perfectly ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. I can also prove the solving of 5+ 5 = 10 in discrete mathematics as well, doesn't change the fact that simply performing the operation involved is cakewalk... Saying my understanding of a game is shallow because I believe it's possible to perform something perfectly is too funny to take seriously. Because whether or not I played BW at all has ANY relevance to this discussion. Holy moly your fundamental ability to process an argument is sound. There are things human can't do perfectly. This is fact. You cannot memorize 20 billion digits. You cannot run 500 miles an hour. You can perform 5+5=10. Good for you, I guess playing LoL is basically doing simple mathematics, oh wait. You have a shallow understanding of the game. You have a shallow understanding of gaming in general. The biggest problem, though, is that you have no imagination, so you instantly assume that if something is not obviously hard that it must be easy. LoL or any of these games as a whole, is a highly complex system with a few factors you can control whose optimization depends almost infinitely on factors you cannot control or even be aware of, yet still take into account when making decisions. That's where the difficulty comes in, and there's essentially no way to be perfect at it. LOL you brang in the BW relevance first after calling me shallow. Your ability to process your own arguments is beyond sound. My understanding of games is shallow? I've played top tier in nearly every popular multiplayer out there. I doubt that's the case with you. It's simple. I'm not on trial, so throwing it back on me is meaningless. Fact of the matter is, even if in fact I know nothing about BW (and I really don't), it doesn't help backup any of your statement one-single-bit, and that's why your debating skills are virtually null. I'm not on trial buddy. I stated my opinion fully and gave all my backings. Nitpick all you want. I really don't care because debating was never the point and that's all this has turned into. You all managed to show that your persistent at trying to debate but that's a pretty pointless joke for me to waste my time with. Of course you're on trial. You gave all your backings and we're scrutinizing you. How does that make you not on trial? It's hilarious because you throw out a bunch of opinions with (entirely false) justifications, and now you claim you aren't interested in debating. I went for a discussion, you went to just prove me wrong. I'm not on trial because I was never part of your little game. The end.
Yeah because discussion and debate don't mean the same thing. Of course I could prove you wrong, but you have already proven yourself wrong. You don't seem to understand what the phrase "to be on trial" means either. You make several references as to why LoL is an easy game and why Starcraft games are harder, and I'm merely asserting that the only anyone perceived starcraft as competitive is because Korean pro's like boxer DUG HARD and make it so.
You can either choose to accept this fact, or deny it and claim that BW would have anywhere as mechanically challenging without koreans pioneering the scene. Yes, exactly.
Actually you are just wrong about pretty much everything, but you've been obtuse enough not to understand anything anyone says, and you still claim that LoL's skillcap can be achieved. Moreover, you are the type who instantly rejects reason as soon as you perceive a personal attack on your being. Ergo, a discussion with you is entirely futile, and it's way easier to just make you look like a monkey by throwing insults at you.
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I just stated my opinion. I wasn't claiming anything, every debate tactic was thrown to disprove my opinion and no one has proof that the game will last or not so get over it.
I don't know how people expect me to provide proof that the game won't last as an esport. You guys want me to grab my time machine and forward 2 years and see if LoL is still chugging? It's fucking disgusting posters like zergneedsfood sit here and just continuously spit on an opinion they don't agree with.
I'm just glad I'm not on that level of ignorance.
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On March 16 2012 04:17 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:05 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 04:02 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:59 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:50 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:46 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:33 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 03:26 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap. It's easy to see why you'd think so, if we suppose that you've never tried to strive for perfection in anything. I called dota's gimmicks superficial difficulty and I stand by that. It's the type of difficulty that's obvious because it's hard to do at all, compared to the type of difficulty that's obscure because it's easy to do, but hard to perfect. Saying that a player can play a lane to perfection is ridiculous. The fact that the players have to play the lane to perfection with dozens of champions, AGAINST potentially all combinations of enemy champion + jungler, taking into account lane position, jungler threat, buy timing, which runes you have, which runes the enemy has, when to fake a gank, when to purposely make yourself appear vulnerable to ganking, your error margins against skillshots...etc...and all of that is the EASY part of the game. So no, you have a shallow understanding of the game. You are the type of person who would never begin to understand why starcraft is hard if it weren't for pro BW players already having explored all the facets and squeezed out every small mechanical advantage they could get. You're right, good thing you were around to help those BW pros how to learn the game huh? Or wait I guess you must have a shallow understanding of the game as well.. To say a human being couldn't possibly do something perfectly ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. I can also prove the solving of 5+ 5 = 10 in discrete mathematics as well, doesn't change the fact that simply performing the operation involved is cakewalk... Saying my understanding of a game is shallow because I believe it's possible to perform something perfectly is too funny to take seriously. Because whether or not I played BW at all has ANY relevance to this discussion. Holy moly your fundamental ability to process an argument is sound. There are things human can't do perfectly. This is fact. You cannot memorize 20 billion digits. You cannot run 500 miles an hour. You can perform 5+5=10. Good for you, I guess playing LoL is basically doing simple mathematics, oh wait. You have a shallow understanding of the game. You have a shallow understanding of gaming in general. The biggest problem, though, is that you have no imagination, so you instantly assume that if something is not obviously hard that it must be easy. LoL or any of these games as a whole, is a highly complex system with a few factors you can control whose optimization depends almost infinitely on factors you cannot control or even be aware of, yet still take into account when making decisions. That's where the difficulty comes in, and there's essentially no way to be perfect at it. LOL you brang in the BW relevance first after calling me shallow. Your ability to process your own arguments is beyond sound. My understanding of games is shallow? I've played top tier in nearly every popular multiplayer out there. I doubt that's the case with you. It's simple. I'm not on trial, so throwing it back on me is meaningless. Fact of the matter is, even if in fact I know nothing about BW (and I really don't), it doesn't help backup any of your statement one-single-bit, and that's why your debating skills are virtually null. I'm not on trial buddy. I stated my opinion fully and gave all my backings. Nitpick all you want. I really don't care because debating was never the point and that's all this has turned into. You all managed to show that your persistent at trying to debate but that's a pretty pointless joke for me to waste my time with. Of course you're on trial. You gave all your backings and we're scrutinizing you. How does that make you not on trial? It's hilarious because you throw out a bunch of opinions with (entirely false) justifications, and now you claim you aren't interested in debating. I went for a discussion, you went to just prove me wrong. I'm not on trial because I was never part of your little game. The end. Yeah because discussion and debate don't mean the same thing. Of course I could prove you wrong, but you have already proven yourself wrong. You don't seem to understand what the phrase "to be on trial" means either. You make several references as to why LoL is an easy game and why Starcraft games are harder, and I'm merely asserting that the only anyone perceived starcraft as competitive is because Korean pro's like boxer DUG HARD and make it so. You can either choose to accept this fact, or deny it and claim that BW would have anywhere as mechanically challenging without koreans pioneering the scene. Yes, exactly. Actually you are just wrong about pretty much everything, but you've been obtuse enough not to understand anything anyone says, and you still claim that LoL's skillcap can be achieved. Moreover, you are the type who instantly rejects reason as soon as you perceive a personal attack on your being. Ergo, a discussion with you is entirely futile, and it's way easier to just make you look like a monkey by throwing insults at you.
I never talked about starcraft difficulty in a single post. Stop responding with garbage I already said I was done, have a hard time reading?
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You've changed what you've claimed numerous times. Now you're talking about whether it will last or not. Can you please stop posting for the sanity of everyone involved? Thanks.
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Between this thread and the orb thread I'm pretty sure sc2 has lost the title as most intelligent community.
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On March 16 2012 04:14 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:14 Blasterion wrote:On March 16 2012 04:06 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 16 2012 03:59 Cosmology wrote:On March 16 2012 02:58 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:
[quote]
Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else.
The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it.
The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was
someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about:
- How many competitors there are
- Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap)
- Balance
if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded.
But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in.
Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say. Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2). If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game. You gota be a troll lol, Starcraft 2 isn't that bad, you sound so stupid for calling it out like that, I think you're probably someone who is just bitter that they couldn't get any better at Starcraft 2 and instead switched to LoL. Please put 2 in front of Starcraft. I don't like it when I can get amazing games mixed up with not so good ones. Thanks. On March 16 2012 04:03 Cosmology wrote:
Also, you guys are pretending like positioning in LoL is hard :S I play LoL at a decent level and that stuff is easy as hell even i solo queue, I can't imagine the simplicity when everyone is co-ordianted and talking. Yeah dude. Go be pro now. Too easy. But if you don't want to be pro in LoL because you don't like it, that's fine. There's another game very similar to it where positioning is just as easy. Shogi! Mahjong! Oh wait....
bitches don't know about mah 9 Gate timing attack
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LBq5r.jpg)
(The above hand is known as a pure 9 gates)
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EPT
