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On February 21 2012 08:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 TheSwamp wrote:
I used to be against people being able to carry a concealed weapon, but after shooting a gun for myself I have changed my mind. If you understand what carrying a gun means, the danger and responsibility, you will only use it when absolutely necessary. Me? Yes. Everyone? No. On February 21 2012 07:49 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:42 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:29 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:26 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
This isn't a political issue, its a cultural one. In the U.S. virtually everyone either owns a gun or knows someone who does, and many people have shot one. I've shot guns, I do it with friends. Its something that's a part of our culture. There are other cultures who's fear of guns is just as ingrained. So you can have your irrational fear of something you've never experienced and we can do our own thing. Okay? Many of you will probably think we're just a bunch of rednecks, including Americans who are from a big city, but if I we're to take you shooting, I guarantee that you would lose this sentiment. Very few of the people I know that own or shoot guns are people I would consider being even close to a redneck, and these people vary greatly in their views on politics. How's it irrational. There's nothing irrational in being uncomfortable with lethal weapons  Especially not when we look at the US - we don't think "oh what a fun bunch". Are you afraid of knives as well? Probably not because you've been around and used them. It is, however, a lethal weapon. Fear of it is irrational, unless its clear someone intends to kill you with it. That's not to say you shouldn't be careful and responsible with it however. I'm not quite sure why you don't like Americans, but that's likely irrational as well. Perhaps you've never experienced an American either? The unknown is often quite scary. Well my gf is a Texan who lives here, so I've "experienced an American" (no pun intended). I'm not afraid of guns, but when I walk around in Montreal, people are not supposed to carry guns or knives on their person. If everyone carried a gun, I'd be worried. Now if I bump into someone by mistake and they happen to be particularly aggressive (it happens), most likely they only have fists - so my odds are better. Why are you dating her? She's one of the few "fun ones"? I've never been worried about an aggressive person carrying a gun, your perception of this country is truly odd. Let me give you a hint, its basically the same as that one country called Canada. She's one of the many fun ones (a particularly likable person actually!). As for aggressive persons carrying weapons, like I said, your country's homicide rate is three times higher than Canada, it's a big difference! Oh, so you changed your mind in the last 10 minutes, I'm glad to hear that. Also, there are reasons the homicide rate in the U.S. is three times higher. Gangs, drug prohibition, etc, things that are all interconnected and the only clear thing is that its not because people own guns. Homicide is still a rare occurrence in the U.S. It being three times higher isn't a reason to be afraid to go out. That is yet another irrational fear. Furthermore, Switzerland has the second highest rate of private gun ownership and yet your country has a homicide rate 3 times higher. Wtf is that all about? My opinion changed? Based on what, my statement that I look in and I don't think "what a fun bunch"? I'm saying I'm not a big fan of the society, the gross nationalism, the conservatism and reckless liberalism (and the fact that people don't know what liberalism means). I'm not a big fan of the insane hatred of the moderate left. I like many individuals, but I don't like many of your values. And I'm not impressed with the homicide rate which is the highest in the industrialized world. As for the stats, I talked about them fairly in depth earlier in the thread. Switzerland has a lot of guns and they don't shoot each other - what's up with a crazy leftist country that knows better than to shoot everyone? Kudos to them. It just tells me that I may have a good reason for not wanting Americans to have firearms but the Swiss can have them if they want - they know how to handle them. I'm thinking, as far as strong democracies go, egalitarian countries tend to have lower homicide rates. So give those egalitarian countries a whole bunch of guns if they want them, since they won't murder each other anyway. But in the US, the right is pushing for more inequality... Dangerous!
You went from "what a fun bunch", to saying there are many fun Americans. How is that not changing your mind? Liberalism is quite broad but I'm assuming you're equating it with free market principles in this instance as I'm sure you don't disagree with human rights, free speech, equality under the law, democracy, etc. America underwent a different political path, that is why terms have shifted and are regarded differently in different countries. Socialists and the labor movement in America essentially claimed liberalism despite only being in line with some of its values, those opposed had to adhere to different labels for themselves. I'm not sure where your perception of "insane hatred for the moderate left" comes from. Fox news does not represent the views of the average American.
My point on Switzerland just completely went over your head. You essentially admitted that gun ownership is not a factor and didn't even realize it. Its funny that you think Switzerland is "leftist". I tend to think of Switzerland as having that reckless liberalism you speak of so vehemently.
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On February 21 2012 08:35 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:14 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 TheSwamp wrote:
I used to be against people being able to carry a concealed weapon, but after shooting a gun for myself I have changed my mind. If you understand what carrying a gun means, the danger and responsibility, you will only use it when absolutely necessary. Me? Yes. Everyone? No. On February 21 2012 07:49 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:42 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:29 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:26 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
This isn't a political issue, its a cultural one. In the U.S. virtually everyone either owns a gun or knows someone who does, and many people have shot one. I've shot guns, I do it with friends. Its something that's a part of our culture. There are other cultures who's fear of guns is just as ingrained. So you can have your irrational fear of something you've never experienced and we can do our own thing. Okay? Many of you will probably think we're just a bunch of rednecks, including Americans who are from a big city, but if I we're to take you shooting, I guarantee that you would lose this sentiment. Very few of the people I know that own or shoot guns are people I would consider being even close to a redneck, and these people vary greatly in their views on politics. How's it irrational. There's nothing irrational in being uncomfortable with lethal weapons Especially not when we look at the US - we don't think "oh what a fun bunch". Are you afraid of knives as well? Probably not because you've been around and used them. It is, however, a lethal weapon. Fear of it is irrational, unless its clear someone intends to kill you with it. That's not to say you shouldn't be careful and responsible with it however. I'm not quite sure why you don't like Americans, but that's likely irrational as well. Perhaps you've never experienced an American either? The unknown is often quite scary. Well my gf is a Texan who lives here, so I've "experienced an American" (no pun intended). I'm not afraid of guns, but when I walk around in Montreal, people are not supposed to carry guns or knives on their person. If everyone carried a gun, I'd be worried. Now if I bump into someone by mistake and they happen to be particularly aggressive (it happens), most likely they only have fists - so my odds are better. Why are you dating her? She's one of the few "fun ones"? I've never been worried about an aggressive person carrying a gun, your perception of this country is truly odd. Let me give you a hint, its basically the same as that one country called Canada. She's one of the many fun ones (a particularly likable person actually!). As for aggressive persons carrying weapons, like I said, your country's homicide rate is three times higher than Canada, it's a big difference! Oh, so you changed your mind in the last 10 minutes, I'm glad to hear that. Also, there are reasons the homicide rate in the U.S. is three times higher. Gangs, drug prohibition, etc, things that are all interconnected and the only clear thing is that its not because people own guns. Homicide is still a rare occurrence in the U.S. It being three times higher isn't a reason to be afraid to go out. That is yet another irrational fear. Furthermore, Switzerland has the second highest rate of private gun ownership and yet your country has a homicide rate 3 times higher. Wtf is that all about? My opinion changed? Based on what, my statement that I look in and I don't think "what a fun bunch"? I'm saying I'm not a big fan of the society, the gross nationalism, the conservatism and reckless liberalism (and the fact that people don't know what liberalism means). I'm not a big fan of the insane hatred of the moderate left. I like many individuals, but I don't like many of your values. And I'm not impressed with the homicide rate which is the highest in the industrialized world. As for the stats, I talked about them fairly in depth earlier in the thread. Switzerland has a lot of guns and they don't shoot each other - what's up with a crazy leftist country that knows better than to shoot everyone? Kudos to them. It just tells me that I may have a good reason for not wanting Americans to have firearms but the Swiss can have them if they want - they know how to handle them. I'm thinking, as far as strong democracies go, egalitarian countries tend to have lower homicide rates. So give those egalitarian countries a whole bunch of guns if they want them, since they won't murder each other anyway. But in the US, the right is pushing for more inequality... Dangerous! You went from "what a fun bunch", to saying there are many fun Americans. How is that not changing your mind?
You assumed that "what a fun bunch" implied that all Americans suck, which - I'm sorry to say - is stupid of you. Sorry again, but it is.
Liberalism is quite broad but I'm assuming you're equating it with free market principles in this instance as I'm sure you don't disagree with human rights, free speech, equality under the law, democracy, etc. America underwent a different political path, that is why terms have shifted and are regarded differently in different countries. Socialists and the labor movement in America essentially claimed liberalism despite only being in line with some of its values, those opposed had to adhere to different labels for themselves. I'm not sure where your perception of "insane hatred for the moderate left" comes from. Fox news does not represent the views of the average American.
No but for an industrialized country, the US is a bit far on the right, which I dislike. Glad to hear you understand what's going on though - you seem to be a smart guy, which makes it really confusing that you'd give my earlier statement such an extreme meaning which wasn't intended.
My point on Switzerland just completely went over your head. You essentially admitted that gun ownership is not a factor and didn't even realize it. Its funny that you think Switzerland is "leftist". I tend to think of Switzerland as having that reckless liberalism you speak of so vehemently.
You missed a large part of the thread so I'll forgive you. And Switzerland is fairly on the left, and the right isn't rigid. For one we can say that the Gini coefficient is significantly more... reasonable. I didn't admit that gun ownership is not a factor, and the data doesn't suggest so. Let me point you to an earlier post I made.
I said:
Yes but again, can we compare European countries to the US?
First they CAN have guns, but they don't. The US has twice as many guns per capita than the second most armed industrialized country (Switzerland) and 2.5x more guns than the third most armed industrialized country (Finland). Why do these countries have so few murders though? The conjuncture is different - for one they have significantly less guns (because it's not part of their identity), but also those countries are a LOT more egalitarian.
I mean, if we're to take all countries as equals, let's take South Africa, an industrialized country, but just about the least egalitarian one at this point in time. They have about 7x less guns than the US, but their murder rate is almost 6x higher. How's that not a perfect example for the HUGE lack of correlation between murder and guns? I mean, it's fairly convincing in a way. A lot less guns, a lot more homicide - but can you really compare the post Apartheid South Africa to the current "everything's fucking awesome and I love my Xbox" United-States?
Those who have had some economics class certainly know about "Ceteris paribus", which means "with other things the same". Can't compare different countries on one issue and pretend that it works - it doesn't. Those countries are too different. In this case, you can only compare the US to the US, and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare
Edit: but that'll probably go over your head since people don't understand statistics and how to use them.
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"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate.
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Anyone who wants to say that US has little gun control and high crime and therefore, gun control is needed to prevent crime just needs to look at the comparison between North Dakota and Manitoba, the hundreds of US counties with extremely high gun ownership and next to no crime, Mexico, the US cities with strict gun control and high crime, European countries before and after gun bans while keeping in mind existing trends, etc.
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Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up.
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On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate.
Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways.
Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike.
On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up.
I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret.
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On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret.
That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias.
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On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias.
Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it.
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On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it.
Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it.
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On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it.
So you're at that point where you just questioning my person because you don't know what egalitarian means. Let's use the Gini coefficient (you probably don't know what that means) as a means to measure equality in a people's income.
Notice the general lack of countries that could be considered egalitarian in the general vicinity of the US? + Show Spoiler +
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On February 21 2012 09:56 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it. So you're at that point where you just questioning my person because you don't know what egalitarian means. Let's use the Gini coefficient (you probably don't know what that means) as a means to measure equality in a people's income. Notice the general lack of countries that could be considered egalitarian in the general vicinity of the US? + Show Spoiler +
Actually we we're going by different definitions.
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On February 21 2012 10:00 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:56 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it. So you're at that point where you just questioning my person because you don't know what egalitarian means. Let's use the Gini coefficient (you probably don't know what that means) as a means to measure equality in a people's income. Notice the general lack of countries that could be considered egalitarian in the general vicinity of the US? + Show Spoiler + Actually we we're going by different definitions.
Well let's stop this then, you don't like me very much and it's uncomfortable being accused over and over to hate the US. I'm studying political "science" because I like this stuff and I pride myself on being able to analyze a situation reasonably well despite my admitted prejudice.
However understand that I'd never qualify my hard feelings towards the US as "hate".
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No because the risk of accident is greater than any benefice.
As simple as that.
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On February 21 2012 10:04 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:00 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:56 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it. So you're at that point where you just questioning my person because you don't know what egalitarian means. Let's use the Gini coefficient (you probably don't know what that means) as a means to measure equality in a people's income. Notice the general lack of countries that could be considered egalitarian in the general vicinity of the US? + Show Spoiler + Actually we we're going by different definitions. Well let's stop this then, you don't like me very much and it's uncomfortable being accused over and over to hate the US. I'm studying political "sciences" because I like this stuff and I pride myself on being able to analyse a situation reasonably well despite my admitted prejudice. However understand that I'd never qualify my hard feelings towards the US as "hate".
I don't think you hate the U.S. I think you have warped views and bias towards the U.S. It's not an accusation, some of the things you say about this country are just plain bizarre and don't make any sense to me.
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On February 21 2012 10:07 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:04 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 10:00 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:56 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it. So you're at that point where you just questioning my person because you don't know what egalitarian means. Let's use the Gini coefficient (you probably don't know what that means) as a means to measure equality in a people's income. Notice the general lack of countries that could be considered egalitarian in the general vicinity of the US? + Show Spoiler + Actually we we're going by different definitions. Well let's stop this then, you don't like me very much and it's uncomfortable being accused over and over to hate the US. I'm studying political "sciences" because I like this stuff and I pride myself on being able to analyse a situation reasonably well despite my admitted prejudice. However understand that I'd never qualify my hard feelings towards the US as "hate". I don't think you hate the U.S. I think you have warped views and bias towards the U.S. It's not an accusation, some of the things you say about this country are just plain bizarre and don't make any sense to me.
Welp, I'm not sure what things you're talking about specifically but it's possible. Overall though, I think I have a decent understanding.
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On February 21 2012 09:51 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 09:45 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:43 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 09:29 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
"and you don't have the data for "US with guns" and "US without guns" to compare"
Not true, go by state. Homicide rate doesn't flush with gun ownership in the slightest. Maybe you'll proceed to list a variety of factors influencing homicide rate making states incomparable. I don't understand how anyone could think that makes a lick of sense. All the evidence points to gun ownership being of very little consequence and yet you twist that evidence against itself to say things are incomparable. I can't even begin to comprehend that. Everything you list making countries incomparable are in fact the things you should be looking at to determine what causes a high homicide rate. Well frankly what you'd have to do is wiggle with the number of guns in a specific region to actually be able to make that statement, anything else is speculation. And to be honest, even then you end up with a result biased by the evolution of the state in other ways. Social sciences are kind of terrible in many ways. Think about it anyway, Louisiana's murder rate is really high and New Hampshire's is very low, with a difference of a factor of 23. Just because it happens to be on the same landmass with the same federal government doesn't mean the conjuncture is alike. On February 21 2012 09:36 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
Your claim that those countries are more egalitarian than the U.S. is just more biased hatred of the U.S. coming from you, you have absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't hate the U.S, but it's not like the word "egalitarian" is some kind of obscure jargon. Those countries are more egalitarian - it's not a secret. That is a tremendously subjective statement. Its pure opinion. Bring forth some evidence before you spout such nonsense. You may not think you hate the U.S. but you have some very strange views of the country that could only be borne out of bias. Come on, why do you need evidence that Switzerland is more egalitarian than the United States? That's like asking for evidence that 2+2=4, that's a job for captain obvious. If you don't have sufficient knowledge for this conversation, don't blame me for it. Minaret ban? Its obvious to you because your bias is severely embedded. Your twisted views of the U.S. are severe and bizarre. It will take some rigorous and objective introspection to undo it.
I don't think you actually understand what egalitarianism is in a polticial sense. It has very little to do personnel freedom. An oppressive tyrannical dictatorship can be egalitarian, provided it treats its people relatively the same, with equal levels of contempt.
In a political sense, differences in pay between men and women, minorities and majorities, the gap between rich and poor, enfranchisement issues, etc, etc, are what is commonly held to define whether a country is egalitarian.
For this reason, a country like Norway is often considered to be the poster child of a relatively egalitarian state, due to low income inequalities across various groups, life expectancy rates, the difference between a "bad" school and a "good" school, etc.
A country like South Africa, which has extreme differences in rich/poor, local crime rates, peoples chances of success within local communities, education, etc is pretty much the example of the exact opposite
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I don't think that gun ownership has very much to do with murder rate. Murder rate rises with inequality. If you have very rich people next to very poor people you get crime. Gun ownership only contributes to the kind of weapons used in these crimes. An illegal gun is far more easily obtained if you can steal one in a random household.
Therefore the question should not be: "Should people be allowed to own and carry Guns?" But: "Should people be allowed to own and carry Guns while being uneducated and largely unsanctioned about their use and storage?" To this question in my opinion the answer should be no. I am sure you could prevent lots of accidents (kids shooting their friends for example) If gun owners had to have some kind of license which includes proper training. Guns also would be a lot harder to steal if they were to be stored in a secure location (under the bed or in the closet is not a secure location).
Unfortunatley you won't be able to reduce inequality...that would mean hardcore communism...like we have in Europe 
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On February 21 2012 08:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:04 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:49 TheSwamp wrote:
I used to be against people being able to carry a concealed weapon, but after shooting a gun for myself I have changed my mind. If you understand what carrying a gun means, the danger and responsibility, you will only use it when absolutely necessary. Me? Yes. Everyone? No. On February 21 2012 07:49 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:42 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On February 21 2012 07:29 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2012 07:26 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
This isn't a political issue, its a cultural one. In the U.S. virtually everyone either owns a gun or knows someone who does, and many people have shot one. I've shot guns, I do it with friends. Its something that's a part of our culture. There are other cultures who's fear of guns is just as ingrained. So you can have your irrational fear of something you've never experienced and we can do our own thing. Okay? Many of you will probably think we're just a bunch of rednecks, including Americans who are from a big city, but if I we're to take you shooting, I guarantee that you would lose this sentiment. Very few of the people I know that own or shoot guns are people I would consider being even close to a redneck, and these people vary greatly in their views on politics. How's it irrational. There's nothing irrational in being uncomfortable with lethal weapons Especially not when we look at the US - we don't think "oh what a fun bunch". Are you afraid of knives as well? Probably not because you've been around and used them. It is, however, a lethal weapon. Fear of it is irrational, unless its clear someone intends to kill you with it. That's not to say you shouldn't be careful and responsible with it however. I'm not quite sure why you don't like Americans, but that's likely irrational as well. Perhaps you've never experienced an American either? The unknown is often quite scary. Well my gf is a Texan who lives here, so I've "experienced an American" (no pun intended). I'm not afraid of guns, but when I walk around in Montreal, people are not supposed to carry guns or knives on their person. If everyone carried a gun, I'd be worried. Now if I bump into someone by mistake and they happen to be particularly aggressive (it happens), most likely they only have fists - so my odds are better. Why are you dating her? She's one of the few "fun ones"? I've never been worried about an aggressive person carrying a gun, your perception of this country is truly odd. Let me give you a hint, its basically the same as that one country called Canada. She's one of the many fun ones (a particularly likable person actually!). As for aggressive persons carrying weapons, like I said, your country's homicide rate is three times higher than Canada, it's a big difference! Oh, so you changed your mind in the last 10 minutes, I'm glad to hear that. Also, there are reasons the homicide rate in the U.S. is three times higher. Gangs, drug prohibition, etc, things that are all interconnected and the only clear thing is that its not because people own guns. Homicide is still a rare occurrence in the U.S. It being three times higher isn't a reason to be afraid to go out. That is yet another irrational fear. Furthermore, Switzerland has the second highest rate of private gun ownership and yet your country has a homicide rate 3 times higher. Wtf is that all about? My opinion changed? Based on what, my statement that I look in and I don't think "what a fun bunch"? I'm saying I'm not a big fan of the society, the gross nationalism, the conservatism and reckless liberalism (and the fact that people don't know what liberalism means). I'm not a big fan of the insane hatred of the moderate left. I like many individuals, but I don't like many of your values. And I'm not impressed with the homicide rate which is the highest in the industrialized world. As for the stats, I talked about them fairly in depth earlier in the thread. Switzerland has a lot of guns and they don't shoot each other - what's up with a crazy leftist country that knows better than to shoot everyone? Kudos to them. It just tells me that I may have a good reason for not wanting Americans to have firearms but the Swiss can have them if they want - they know how to handle them.I'm thinking, as far as strong democracies go, egalitarian countries tend to have lower homicide rates. So give those egalitarian countries a whole bunch of guns if they want them, since they won't murder each other anyway. But in the US, the right is pushing for more inequality... Dangerous!
So what your saying is that you just backtracked on your whole argument about guns being the reason why there are more homicides in the United States than other countries, and are merely just a tool?
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Yes of course people should be allowed to own and carry guns. You can never count on a stranger to protect you or your family.
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I think if you can make it so it's really hard to obtain guns like in Australia then I'm sure you can reduce murder rates etc...by making it illegal to own/carry a gun. However, if it were illegal in the U.S it would make no difference since there's just too many out there.
To me, you have to be even more crazy to kill someone without a gun than with a gun, since instead of just making the decision and pulling the trigger you have to do something either more calculated or more physical. Nearly anything that creates an extra barrier between something is going to reduce the amount it happens.
I don't know much about the other things that have an effect on murders but obviously you could address those as well or instead of "getting rid" of guns. If you're culture is like the U.S where people put a high value on owning guns then obviously it's better to address these other issues (not that it would even be possible to get rid of guns there). It's the same reason smoking, alcohol, etc...are allowed even though they contribute to a lot of deaths, people put a high value on being able to smoke/drink.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/DJZapZ/Egal.jpg)
