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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 14:54 GMT
#2441
On July 22 2012 22:04 yeint wrote:
This is a pointless discussion based on a kneejerk reaction that blames lack of gun control for the recent killing spree.

The gun situation in the United States is not as simple as "well let's introduce really strict gun control, or ban them altogether!".

After literally centuries of constitutionally guaranteed gun rights, the amount of firearms already in the hands of the public is so huge that any ban will not even put a dent in the availability of illegal weapons.

It's also a gross oversimplification to think that these things wouldn't happen if strict gun laws were introduced. School shootings have happened in Finland, where legal gun ownership is highly controlled. Gun ownership is insanely high in Switzerland, yet there have been no school shootings there. If we were to start a society from scratch, with no worries about what has happened in the past, yes, it may well be much better to have strict gun control or an altogether ban on them. But that's not the case.

The money spent on the anti-gun lobby or some disarming campaign would be much better spent on psychiatric screening of males in their teens to late twenties. The solution to inner city gang violence is not gun control but dealing with the socioeconomic situation that leads to violent gangs. The solution to drug epidemics is not a massive and expensive "war on drugs", but creating environments where people don't easily turn to drugs as their only escape.

Successful, happy, financially and medically secure people are far less likely to turn into crack addicts. Case in point - the Netherlands. Highly lax drug regulation, yet the result:

[image loading]

Now, these results don't happen in a vacuum. Getting rid of drug laws is not what leads to less drug use and less crime. The Netherlands is a "welfare state" by American standards. But it does go to show you that if you eliminate extreme income disparity, you reduce crime and drug use so much that even with far more lenient laws on drug use and crime, both occur far less.


Well said sir. I agree with everything in this post. Couldn't have summed it up more perfectly. Thanks for your input.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
-_-Quails
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia796 Posts
July 22 2012 14:56 GMT
#2442
On July 22 2012 21:22 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 21:15 sd_andeh wrote:
On February 20 2012 11:34 Heweree wrote:
On February 20 2012 11:25 ClanRH.TV wrote:

[image loading]

And the second graph is: Who Has the Most Gun
[image loading]





I can tell you for a reason that not 30% of the french population has guns. The only guns citizens have are hunting firearms.
Did they just take into account all the guns owned by the police and the military and divided it by the total population?

It's the only way they found this numbers. And it would be dumb since the police and military weapons are not available to anyone.
I lived 8 years in France, and I don't know ANYONE who owns a gun. The only people who own guns are hunters but they aren't many, like 1% of the population maximum.


I can second this. And also that the graphs about Sweden are so incorrect. So basically that would mean that of our 9 million people in Sweden, 3 million of them would have guns? That's so ridiculous. It's probably way lower than 1%. Guns are extremely extremely rare in Sweden so those graphs are so made up.

"In one year, GUNS murdered 35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, and 9,484 in the United States."

That doesn't make the graphs incorrect.

And I seriously doubt it's less than 1% gun owners. Probably something around 5% of house holds sounds right for a country like Sweden. Which is not a lot compared to the US of course, but it's not like guns are non existent in Europe.

It's just that gun ownership seems something so foreign to many Europeans that they simply refuse to believe that there are in fact many gun owners in their own country. I have written about this rather curious phenomenon before:

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=241586

Most gun owners in Europe are subtle about it, or live on farms. You wouldn't know they had any unless you asked, or encountered them in a situation where the firearm was needed.
"I post only when my brain works." - Reaper9
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 14:58 GMT
#2443
On July 22 2012 23:56 -_-Quails wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 21:22 zatic wrote:
On July 22 2012 21:15 sd_andeh wrote:
On February 20 2012 11:34 Heweree wrote:
On February 20 2012 11:25 ClanRH.TV wrote:

[image loading]

And the second graph is: Who Has the Most Gun
[image loading]





I can tell you for a reason that not 30% of the french population has guns. The only guns citizens have are hunting firearms.
Did they just take into account all the guns owned by the police and the military and divided it by the total population?

It's the only way they found this numbers. And it would be dumb since the police and military weapons are not available to anyone.
I lived 8 years in France, and I don't know ANYONE who owns a gun. The only people who own guns are hunters but they aren't many, like 1% of the population maximum.


I can second this. And also that the graphs about Sweden are so incorrect. So basically that would mean that of our 9 million people in Sweden, 3 million of them would have guns? That's so ridiculous. It's probably way lower than 1%. Guns are extremely extremely rare in Sweden so those graphs are so made up.

"In one year, GUNS murdered 35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, and 9,484 in the United States."

That doesn't make the graphs incorrect.

And I seriously doubt it's less than 1% gun owners. Probably something around 5% of house holds sounds right for a country like Sweden. Which is not a lot compared to the US of course, but it's not like guns are non existent in Europe.

It's just that gun ownership seems something so foreign to many Europeans that they simply refuse to believe that there are in fact many gun owners in their own country. I have written about this rather curious phenomenon before:

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=241586

Most gun owners in Europe are subtle about it, or live on farms. You wouldn't know they had any unless you asked, or encountered them in a situation where the firearm was needed.


Most in America who aren't thugs are the same way unless they are around other people who they know are 'firearms' people (at the range, etc).
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
KingLol
Profile Joined February 2012
54 Posts
July 22 2012 15:04 GMT
#2444
Unfortunately, for every story like the one about the 71 year old guy, there are stories like this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-usa-florida-protest-idUSBRE86J1DY20120720

The problem with this thread (actually, more the entire pro-gun vs anti-gun debate) is that the pro-gunners have this very romanticised, fanatical view about guns which doesn't lend itself particularly well to objective reasoning; nevertheless, it's interesting to hear the views from both sides.
valium
Profile Joined June 2012
United States251 Posts
July 22 2012 15:09 GMT
#2445
We do NOT have an actual constitutional right to carry firearms, the constitution makes sure to specify the right to bear firearms is for those who are part of a militia. Non-military who are TRAINED in the proper use and proper care of firearms.

Let us ignore the overwhelming statistical evidence that countries with tighter and heavily enforced gun control laws have a significantly lower murder rate (per capita so no pointless argument over population.)

Of course those to blame for using firearms to perform violence are those who chose violence, but cmon people, lets make it extremely hard for them to get firearms. A nice added bonus would be that we no longer need them for "self defense."
It is not easy being this awesome and modest
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 15:12 GMT
#2446
On July 23 2012 00:04 KingLol wrote:
Unfortunately, for every story like the one about the 71 year old guy, there are stories like this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-usa-florida-protest-idUSBRE86J1DY20120720

The problem with this thread (actually, more the entire pro-gun vs anti-gun debate) is that the pro-gunners have this very romanticised, fanatical view about guns which doesn't lend itself particularly well to objective reasoning; nevertheless, it's interesting to hear the views from both sides.


That's an excellent example of police abuse of power and overreaction and violating that man's rights. Gun owners should never have to fear death because they are abiding by the law and exercising their constitutional rights.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
LeSioN
Profile Joined November 2010
United States325 Posts
July 22 2012 15:12 GMT
#2447
such a dumb debate. more people owning guns = more deaths, end of story. i dont care what you say about responsible people needing to defend themselves. if a normal citizen can walk into walmart and buy a gun everyone is less safe. and having a gun in your closet isnt going to stop anyone trying to kill you. if guns were much more restricted less criminals would have access to them,(yes they would) meaning the guy mugging you on the street couldnt afford one or the guy breaking into your house or your child who decides to take it to school. the people that would still get the guns would be crime lords and drug pushers, the kind of people who are already taken care of by the police, not gun carrying citizens. if you want to be a dumb fucking cowboy you better go through years of training and legal bullshit first, because I shouldnt have to sacrifice my safety for your fucked up pleasures.
Someone needs to tell the truth, but it shouldn't be my job.
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 15:15 GMT
#2448
On July 23 2012 00:09 valium wrote:
We do NOT have an actual constitutional right to carry firearms, the constitution makes sure to specify the right to bear firearms is for those who are part of a militia. Non-military who are TRAINED in the proper use and proper care of firearms.

Let us ignore the overwhelming statistical evidence that countries with tighter and heavily enforced gun control laws have a significantly lower murder rate (per capita so no pointless argument over population.)

Of course those to blame for using firearms to perform violence are those who chose violence, but cmon people, lets make it extremely hard for them to get firearms. A nice added bonus would be that we no longer need them for "self defense."


Every interpretation in every case of constitutional law in the courts disagrees with your assertion.

I completely agree that we should make it damn near impossible for those who choose violence to get firearms. And it would be nice to live in a Utopia where everyone is nice to one another and no one ever robs, rapes, tortures, or kills. Until that time, it is what it is, and I will carry by right.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 15:18 GMT
#2449
On July 23 2012 00:12 LeSioN wrote:
such a dumb debate. more people owning guns = more deaths, end of story. i dont care what you say about responsible people needing to defend themselves. if a normal citizen can walk into walmart and buy a gun everyone is less safe. and having a gun in your closet isnt going to stop anyone trying to kill you. if guns were much more restricted less criminals would have access to them,(yes they would) meaning the guy mugging you on the street couldnt afford one or the guy breaking into your house or your child who decides to take it to school. the people that would still get the guns would be crime lords and drug pushers, the kind of people who are already taken care of by the police, not gun carrying citizens. if you want to be a dumb fucking cowboy you better go through years of training and legal bullshit first, because I shouldnt have to sacrifice my safety for your fucked up pleasures.


Switzerland? High per capita guns, one of the lowest murder rates. Rethink your statement?

Marginalizing responsible gun owners by calling them dumb fucking cowboys and implying they have fucked up pleasures because they like to feel safe does nothing for calling people to respect your position. Try more substance.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
KingLol
Profile Joined February 2012
54 Posts
July 22 2012 15:21 GMT
#2450
On July 23 2012 00:12 StarStrider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:04 KingLol wrote:
Unfortunately, for every story like the one about the 71 year old guy, there are stories like this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-usa-florida-protest-idUSBRE86J1DY20120720

The problem with this thread (actually, more the entire pro-gun vs anti-gun debate) is that the pro-gunners have this very romanticised, fanatical view about guns which doesn't lend itself particularly well to objective reasoning; nevertheless, it's interesting to hear the views from both sides.


That's an excellent example of police abuse of power and overreaction and violating that man's rights. Gun owners should never have to fear death because they are abiding by the law and exercising their constitutional rights.


No, it's actually an excellent example of the preventable tragedies that can befall law abiding citizens due to the situation-escalating nature of guns. I don't see how it was an abuse of police power: the policeman believed (mistakenly) he was dealing with a criminal suspect and thought he had no choice but to fire when confronted with a gun-wielding 'suspect'.
valium
Profile Joined June 2012
United States251 Posts
July 22 2012 15:22 GMT
#2451
Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me. I wouldn't trust those who are fanatical about "self defense" with being able to walk straight let alone being responsible with their extremely dangerous weapon.

I do like your lack of comprehension of constitutional law or high court's historical decisions. If what you claim is true, there would not be such political dynomite about those damn liberals trying to get jer gins.
It is not easy being this awesome and modest
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 15:33 GMT
#2452
On July 23 2012 00:22 valium wrote:
Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me. I wouldn't trust those who are fanatical about "self defense" with being able to walk straight let alone being responsible with their extremely dangerous weapon.

I do like your lack of comprehension of constitutional law or high court's historical decisions. If what you claim is true, there would not be such political dynomite about those damn liberals trying to get jer gins.


Thanks for the condescension and stereotyping. There are alot of rednecks and hillbillies 'round the part of the country I'm from, but sir, I am proud to not be one.

"Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me."

lolol. Thats rich. Oh my sides. I would LOOVVEE to hear you back that one up.

I have studied constitutional law. Yes, there are people who believe what you do, stirring up alot of 'dynamite' that the constitution doesn't provide for the right of common Americans to arm up. But I am referring to how much success they have had in court cases trying to get that right that you claim doesn't exist overturned. It's been 200 and some odd years now, not too much success with that one. Give it another 100, maybe the justices will feel differently.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 15:45 GMT
#2453
On July 23 2012 00:21 KingLol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:12 StarStrider wrote:
On July 23 2012 00:04 KingLol wrote:
Unfortunately, for every story like the one about the 71 year old guy, there are stories like this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-usa-florida-protest-idUSBRE86J1DY20120720

The problem with this thread (actually, more the entire pro-gun vs anti-gun debate) is that the pro-gunners have this very romanticised, fanatical view about guns which doesn't lend itself particularly well to objective reasoning; nevertheless, it's interesting to hear the views from both sides.


That's an excellent example of police abuse of power and overreaction and violating that man's rights. Gun owners should never have to fear death because they are abiding by the law and exercising their constitutional rights.


No, it's actually an excellent example of the preventable tragedies that can befall law abiding citizens due to the situation-escalating nature of guns. I don't see how it was an abuse of police power: the policeman believed (mistakenly) he was dealing with a criminal suspect and thought he had no choice but to fire when confronted with a gun-wielding 'suspect'.


So, you would have everyone disarmed so that they don't accidentally get shot by someone who has the duty to be armed and is bound by law to protect them?

I guess I would say it's an abuse of power because an officer has been entrusted by the state with a sidearm that can offer swift death to a citizen, and to 'make a mistake' pulling the trigger before he knew his life was in danger just because he didn't want to take the risk, is overstepping his bounds of power, is making himself an executioner before the trial. Although, I'm not going to defend too strongly that I used the phrase 'abuse of power', it may be a little harsh, but I think severe overreaction is the best description.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
scaban84
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1080 Posts
July 22 2012 15:51 GMT
#2454
On July 23 2012 00:22 valium wrote:
Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me. I wouldn't trust those who are fanatical about "self defense" with being able to walk straight let alone being responsible with their extremely dangerous weapon.

I do like your lack of comprehension of constitutional law or high court's historical decisions. If what you claim is true, there would not be such political dynomite about those damn liberals trying to get jer gins.


Is it possible to be "fanatical" about "self-defense"? Thats like being fanatical about eating food to survive or being fanatical about not jumping in front of moving trains.

Self-defense is primal necessity. And weapons have always been and always will be an integral part of human existence.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." — Friedrich von Hayek
Xaulior
Profile Joined August 2011
24 Posts
July 22 2012 15:55 GMT
#2455
No.
King.Tut
Profile Joined February 2012
United States11 Posts
July 22 2012 15:59 GMT
#2456
Criminals will still be able to get guns. The thought of being defenseless is more terrifying than the current state of affairs.

just my opinion.
I know the feel, Bro
Toxi78
Profile Joined May 2010
966 Posts
July 22 2012 16:00 GMT
#2457
On July 23 2012 00:18 StarStrider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:12 LeSioN wrote:
such a dumb debate. more people owning guns = more deaths, end of story. i dont care what you say about responsible people needing to defend themselves. if a normal citizen can walk into walmart and buy a gun everyone is less safe. and having a gun in your closet isnt going to stop anyone trying to kill you. if guns were much more restricted less criminals would have access to them,(yes they would) meaning the guy mugging you on the street couldnt afford one or the guy breaking into your house or your child who decides to take it to school. the people that would still get the guns would be crime lords and drug pushers, the kind of people who are already taken care of by the police, not gun carrying citizens. if you want to be a dumb fucking cowboy you better go through years of training and legal bullshit first, because I shouldnt have to sacrifice my safety for your fucked up pleasures.


Switzerland? High per capita guns, one of the lowest murder rates. Rethink your statement?

Marginalizing responsible gun owners by calling them dumb fucking cowboys and implying they have fucked up pleasures because they like to feel safe does nothing for calling people to respect your position. Try more substance.


because in your country having a weapon is the one way to feel safe?
then i'll give you that : you do need guns, but your society has a MUCH BIGGER problem than gun ownership.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
July 22 2012 16:02 GMT
#2458
On July 23 2012 00:51 scaban84 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:22 valium wrote:
Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me. I wouldn't trust those who are fanatical about "self defense" with being able to walk straight let alone being responsible with their extremely dangerous weapon.

I do like your lack of comprehension of constitutional law or high court's historical decisions. If what you claim is true, there would not be such political dynomite about those damn liberals trying to get jer gins.


Is it possible to be "fanatical" about "self-defense"? Thats like being fanatical about eating food to survive or being fanatical about not jumping in front of moving trains.

Self-defense is primal necessity. And weapons have always been and always will be an integral part of human existence.

You can be fanatical about everything you just said, I think you don't understand the definition so ... I took the liberty of Googling it for you.

"Obsessively concerned with something." <---- Now do you understand why you can be Fanatical about really anything? I can be fanatical about falling off buildings.
FoTG fighting!
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 16:04 GMT
#2459
On July 23 2012 01:00 Toxi78 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:18 StarStrider wrote:
On July 23 2012 00:12 LeSioN wrote:
such a dumb debate. more people owning guns = more deaths, end of story. i dont care what you say about responsible people needing to defend themselves. if a normal citizen can walk into walmart and buy a gun everyone is less safe. and having a gun in your closet isnt going to stop anyone trying to kill you. if guns were much more restricted less criminals would have access to them,(yes they would) meaning the guy mugging you on the street couldnt afford one or the guy breaking into your house or your child who decides to take it to school. the people that would still get the guns would be crime lords and drug pushers, the kind of people who are already taken care of by the police, not gun carrying citizens. if you want to be a dumb fucking cowboy you better go through years of training and legal bullshit first, because I shouldnt have to sacrifice my safety for your fucked up pleasures.


Switzerland? High per capita guns, one of the lowest murder rates. Rethink your statement?

Marginalizing responsible gun owners by calling them dumb fucking cowboys and implying they have fucked up pleasures because they like to feel safe does nothing for calling people to respect your position. Try more substance.


because in your country having a weapon is the one way to feel safe?
then i'll give you that : you do need guns, but your society has a MUCH BIGGER problem than gun ownership.


Completely agreed. Let's talk about how to fix that first, then we can talk about where I can dispose of my hunk of useless metal and bullets.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
StarStrider
Profile Joined August 2011
United States689 Posts
July 22 2012 16:04 GMT
#2460
On July 23 2012 01:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2012 00:51 scaban84 wrote:
On July 23 2012 00:22 valium wrote:
Except you are more likely to kill me than someone trying to rob me. I wouldn't trust those who are fanatical about "self defense" with being able to walk straight let alone being responsible with their extremely dangerous weapon.

I do like your lack of comprehension of constitutional law or high court's historical decisions. If what you claim is true, there would not be such political dynomite about those damn liberals trying to get jer gins.


Is it possible to be "fanatical" about "self-defense"? Thats like being fanatical about eating food to survive or being fanatical about not jumping in front of moving trains.

Self-defense is primal necessity. And weapons have always been and always will be an integral part of human existence.

You can be fanatical about everything you just said, I think you don't understand the definition so ... I took the liberty of Googling it for you.

"Obsessively concerned with something." <---- Now do you understand why you can be Fanatical about really anything? I can be fanatical about falling off buildings.


Semantics. Derailing.
Spontaneous Pneumothorax sucks, please keep MVP sC in your thoughts. sC fighting! 힘내세요
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