Hamza Kashgari, a 23 year old Saudi-Arabia national is facing persecution for a set (3) of tweets that he placed on his twitter account.
Recently the birthday of Muhammed (prophet of islam) came and passed. In reaction to this, Hamza Kashgari posted 3 tweets and is now facing a possible death sentence for what he did.
Now you might be wondering, what outragous thing did he say that would make people want to kill him?
I say people because this is not a totalitarian regime acting against the wishes of its people. This is a totalitarian theocracy acting entirely according to the wishes of the people. Facebook groups have been organized and tens of thousands of people have taken part in these groups that ask for "justice" (the death sentence) for Hamza Kashgari.
But back to what he said, what did he say that was so offensive that people want him dead?
The 3 tweets in question:
Tweet 1
“On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you’ve always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you.”
Tweet 2
“On your birthday, I find you wherever I turn. I will say that I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more.”
Tweet 3
“On your birthday, I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do, and smile at you as you smile at me. I shall speak to you as a friend, no more.”
The sentence for apostacy in islam is well known, death. But this is not apostasy. This man did not turn from islam, he simply questioned it.
And for his questions his home adress and various other locations (like the mosque he attended) were placed online. You can picture the result.
Hamza Kashgari escaped Saudi-Arabia when he noticed the growing storm, but reports are coming in that he might have been arrested in Malaysia, a country that will gladly sent him back to Saudi-Arabia to face a possible death sentence. Reporting is still unclear at this point.
There is a facebook group with thousands of muslims calling for the execution of Hamza Kashgari. As of this moment, there is no facebook group that calls for mercy.
So, this is what is going on in our "ally" nation of Saudi-Arabia. If they aren't busy exporting salafism then they are hunting down people that even dare to question the faith.
Is this "their way?" Is this their culture?
A 23-year old man is likely going to end up dead. Should we respect that? Should we tip our hat when they decapitate him? Should we silently shake our heads when they stone him?
Many people on this forum have probably lived longer then this man. Most of you will live to be older than Hamza. But 23-years old, that puts him into the same age group as most people on this forum.
People don't understand how fundementaly backward the middle east is and why america thinks that we need to invade for their oil.
this is pretty much why. You can't expect them to be your friends while you shit on their culture and you can't shit on their culture without condemning thousands to death for one reason or another.
the reason why iran hate us so much is that we granted a guy that they hate a lot asylum in our country and saved his life. don't give a shit reason like its the right thing to do when you're talking about international politics.
The French discovered the solution to harmony in multiculturalism many many years ago:
Get the fuck off people's backyard! It's easy to debate on ideals and pure order, but we have to realized different people operate on different values. Given that most of us don't know about this in full detail, it's better that we leave them alone to sort this out.
I honestly don't know Islam law, and I don't know the gravity of his words in accordance to religion, but the most I think we can do is to leave this to the experts of traditional and progressive Islam culture and see how this recent event falls. The less people who know nothing say about this, and the more those who have authoritative knowledge on the topic express the facts and opinions, the better the discussion will be.
On February 10 2012 00:54 Le French wrote: The French discovered the solution to harmony in multiculturalism many many years ago:
Get the fuck off people's backyard! It's easy to debate on ideals and pure order, but we have to realized different people operate on different values. Given that most of us don't know about this in full detail, it's better that we leave them alone to sort this out.
I honestly don't know Islam law, and I don't know the gravity of his words in accordance to religion, but the most I think we can do is to leave this to the experts of traditional and progressive Islam culture and see how this recent event falls. The less people who know nothing say about this, and the more those who have authoritative knowledge on the topic express the facts and opinions, the better the discussion will be.
While I agree we should ignore it because its not our problem, the issue is its unbalanced punishment and way over the top for his crime. If he said that in any country with real tangible rights he would not get in any trouble for using freedom of speech. These countries have government and religion so heavily intertwined that they are killing people for going against their faith and forcing it on others. Must of us can agree this is wrong on any rational scale and therefore condemnable. I won't deny some issues have gray areas but if you can't see that its wrong to kill someone for tweeting three lines then you/your country needs to seriously reevaluate itself.
On February 10 2012 00:59 DragoonPK wrote: Saudi Arabia has the most retarded variation of Islamic Law. This is really retarded.
Is there a non retarded version of a religion based legal system? To expand, I think the American justice system sucks too and needs a major overhaul in how its carried out.
I think if he had kept his beliefs to himself it could have been avoided.That is just the sociological norm there. Nothing unusual. The fact that it would be considered ridiculous in some other countries is kind of irrelevant.
On February 10 2012 01:16 navy wrote: I think if he had kept his beliefs to himself it could have been avoided.That is just the sociological norm there. Nothing unusual. The fact that it would be considered ridiculous in some other countries is kind of irrelevant.
Isn't that pretty bad though? I think it is, and it's fine to be reminded from time to time.
On February 10 2012 01:16 navy wrote: I think if he had kept his beliefs to himself it could have been avoided.That is just the sociological norm there. Nothing unusual. The fact that it would be considered ridiculous in some other countries is kind of irrelevant.
How can it be irrelevant that a religion demands your death if you reject it. It does not matter what country it is, it's ridiculous. Especially in this modern age.
On February 10 2012 01:16 navy wrote: I think if he had kept his beliefs to himself it could have been avoided.That is just the sociological norm there. Nothing unusual. The fact that it would be considered ridiculous in some other countries is kind of irrelevant.
How can it be irrelevant that a religion demands your death if you reject it. It does not matter what country it is, it's ridiculous. Especially in this modern age.
the middle east really isn't in the modern age. That why we have so many problems in it.
Sad thing is, this probably happens to so many people around the world in countless situations, and only the ones who get notoriety for their actions have a chance for intervention. I think someone should help him out, you shouldn't be condemned for questioning things, that's actually the greatest thing you can ever do is question - and thats probably why they don't tolerate it; people thinking outside of their bonds? Slay him! it's archaic and maybe even stupid to let cultures and religions dictate the direction of a society. Most of these people are so brain washed to hate Western(ers) (influence) it causes a lot of unneccisary hate when we're just trying to help these people.
Everyone complains nobody does anything, then when people do, particularly the U.S, all the outrage is just the same, but from a different group of people. You can't win politically, for some reason people think letting people live under these conditions is Ok, everyone should be free to make such remarks, and question things among most else. The matter of how seem to be an issue I guess. Do the right thing, you cannot ignore a situation because the people doing it believe it's right, fuck them, what if it was your Life, or a family members, its nonsensical.
On February 10 2012 02:29 v3chr0 wrote: Sad thing is, this probably happens to so many people around the world in countless situations, and only the ones who get notoriety for their actions have a chance for intervention. I think someone should help him out, you shouldn't be condemned for questioning things, that's actually the greatest thing you can ever do is question - and thats probably why they don't tolerate it; people thinking outside of their bonds? Slay him! it's archaic and maybe even stupid to let cultures and religions dictate the direction of a society. Most of these people are so brain washed to hate Western(ers) (influence) it causes a lot of unneccisary hate when we're just trying to help these people.
Everyone complains nobody does anything, then when people do, particularly the U.S, all the outrage is just the same, but from a different group of people. You can't win politically, for some reason people think letting people live under these conditions is Ok, everyone should be free to make such remarks, and question things among most else. The matter of how seem to be an issue I guess. Do the right thing, you cannot ignore a situation because the people doing it believe it's right, fuck them, what if it was your Life, or a family members, its nonsensical.
US outrage is seen as hypocrisy because lots of things people get outraged about are things that the country has problems with. Having people live under these conditions is not okay, but there is no good way of solving it. When America shows that it is worthy of its holier-than-thou attitude, it may gain the right to call other countries out on their imperfections because it is already above it. Until then, attempts at "helping" other countries are nothing but selfish actions buried under demagogical excuses.
It's a shame that Saudi's oil reserves form a protective barrier around their outdated and inhuman laws. You can question this guy's intelligence for courting punishment, but isn't it better for some to speak out and bring attention to these issues rather than everyone living 'intelligently' in fear? I wish this guy the best.
Let's not be quick to hate on Islam now. It's the literal, fundamentalist interpretation that we should be worried about. Most major religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) were formed long ago, when societal norms were much different. Now the key is to take the spirit of the religions (moral values, faith, charity) and adapt them to the changing conditions of our world. To keep such a strict interpretation is just foolish.
There are many good things about Islam, but the US media tends to overlook it in favor for the more controversial aspects because it appeals more to viewers. In this particular instance, it is the sad case of religious leaders corrupting the religion to impose control.
On February 10 2012 02:29 v3chr0 wrote: Sad thing is, this probably happens to so many people around the world in countless situations, and only the ones who get notoriety for their actions have a chance for intervention. I think someone should help him out, you shouldn't be condemned for questioning things, that's actually the greatest thing you can ever do is question - and thats probably why they don't tolerate it; people thinking outside of their bonds? Slay him! it's archaic and maybe even stupid to let cultures and religions dictate the direction of a society. Most of these people are so brain washed to hate Western(ers) (influence) it causes a lot of unneccisary hate when we're just trying to help these people.
Everyone complains nobody does anything, then when people do, particularly the U.S, all the outrage is just the same, but from a different group of people. You can't win politically, for some reason people think letting people live under these conditions is Ok, everyone should be free to make such remarks, and question things among most else. The matter of how seem to be an issue I guess. Do the right thing, you cannot ignore a situation because the people doing it believe it's right, fuck them, what if it was your Life, or a family members, its nonsensical.
I agree that people unfairly and too often criticise the United States for it's actions but a lot of American foreign policy, like most other countries isn't directed by lofty ideals or a desire to democratise other nations. So when politicians start trying to cite those as reasons people are naturally unimpressed and condemn the bullshit, if nothing else.
On February 10 2012 00:59 DragoonPK wrote: Saudi Arabia has the most retarded variation of Islamic Law. This is really retarded.
Is there a non retarded version of a religion based legal system? To expand, I think the American justice system sucks too and needs a major overhaul in how its carried out.
The resistance of many aspects of Islamic culture and its awesome legal system to change is disheartening. But we have to remember that amongst cultures and systems, it's actually very, very young. Many improvements can happen. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
Also note that this is an example of the most extreme parts of their culture. It wouldn't get such heat otherwise.
On February 10 2012 02:55 Chunhyang wrote: Also note that this is an example of the most extreme parts of their culture. It wouldn't get such heat otherwise.
I'm not sure about that. Saudi Arabian religious law has been condemned the world over for many years, most notoriously their failures for women's rights (can't drive, vote, leave the home without a man, strict dress code, etc).
The concept of theocracy is fundamentally flawed in general, due to its rigid adherence to arbitrary laws. Personally, I find it archaic and barbaric and if I had my way, would be abolished from the planet.
That having been said, the religion in this case (Islam) isn't inherently evil by any means. It is simply the application of Islam to law by the ruling class that is causing the potential murder of this freethinking citizen. This isn't a Muslim issue, this is a theocracy issue in general. Christianity had this same problem for a thousand years.
I wish I would've been born in the far distant future when the concepts of religion on a global level will be nearly extinct, I don't even hate religion nor love it but hearing about it everyday just wears me out.
At some point you just have to stop using silly books from hundreds of years ago as the basis of moral and legal vantage points. Le_sigh
A pathetic, inhuman country. A country that never has (or will) achieve anything notable other than being the oil dealer for the world. Seriously, this country only still exists because of that black stuff under their feet.
On February 10 2012 03:02 forgottendreams wrote: I wish I would've been born in the far distant future when the concepts of religion on a global level will be nearly extinct, I don't even hate religion nor love it but hearing about it everyday just wears me out.
At some point you just have to stop using silly books from hundreds of years ago as the basis of moral and legal vantage points. Le_sigh
I hear you. Thankfully, religion is dying from the First World at a very pleasing- and exponentially increasing- rate. In another generation, there'll be very few people who identify themselves as "strongly religious" in America. One reason for this is the vast capability for dissemination of information via the internet.
As knowledge of Scientific Method grows, more and more people are realizing that what their parents taught them really are just fairly tales from silly ancient books.
I too wish I'd been born 50 or 100 years from now.
@Eico- this is historically incorrect. The region was the cultural center of the world for a very, very long time. Baghdad was once the most advanced city, hundreds of years before its time. While yes, lately they haven't done anything productive except *happen to have been born on top of oil*, to say that the nation is "pathetic" and "has never done anything" is grossly inaccurate. Although calling it "inhumane" is pretty spot-on at the moment, even from an objective standpoint.
When you're in Saudi Arabia and you know that the law is unforgiving if you question their religion, don't do it. I might be sounding like a dick here, but he had this coming.
On February 10 2012 03:02 forgottendreams wrote: I wish I would've been born in the far distant future when the concepts of religion on a global level will be nearly extinct, I don't even hate religion nor love it but hearing about it everyday just wears me out.
At some point you just have to stop using silly books from hundreds of years ago as the basis of moral and legal vantage points. Le_sigh
I hear you. Thankfully, religion is dying from the First World at a very pleasing- and exponentially increasing- rate. In another generation, there'll be very few people who identify themselves as "strongly religious" in America. One reason for this is the vast capability for dissemination of information via the internet.
As knowledge of Scientific Method grows, more and more people are realizing that what their parents taught them really are just fairly tales from silly ancient books.
I too wish I'd been born 50 or 100 years from now.
It is true nearly every "major" religion is declining except Islam, but some demographers predict that even Islam too will begin to decline in a matter of decades.
To think Adam Smith and Edward Gibbon were outcasted from the academic elite for a time for not using "divine jurisprudence" in their concepts of economics and history not even that long ago. As you said though it seems only time will cure it.
On February 10 2012 03:10 Tatari wrote: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
When you're in Saudi Arabia and you know that the law is unforgiving if you question their religion, don't do it. I might be sounding like a dick here, but he had this coming.
the "when in rome" refers to outsiders needing to respect the culture they visit. This man was born in saudi arabia. Thats a different thing altogheter. I would not travel to saudi arabia and shit on their culture. But I can, and will, gladly shit on my own.
but religion is good to control people. a rebel is always a bad example to the people especially when he uses internet as a medium. It might lead to a revolution, so that's why the death penalty must be used. don't you get it guys? i don't want my slaves to doubt my religion. i want them to be slaves so i can keep getting richer and make more billions from the petroleum reserves that belong to me.
It is true nearly every "major" religion is declining except Islam, but some demographers predict that even Islam too will begin to decline in a matter of decades.
To think Adam Smith and Edward Gibbon were outcasted from the academic elite for a time for not using "divine jurisprudence" in their concepts of economics and history not even that long ago. As you said though it seems only time will cure it.
The last vestiges of religion will, as always, lie in the poor and uneducated. As education becomes easier to achieve, thus spreading wealth (a combination of money, health, and education) to peoples with previous access to very little, we'll see religion die.
Quite a few Muslims have issues with celebrating the birthday of Prophet Muhammad. Popular Muslim belief is that the prophet was human, so for this guy to persecuted for denouncing divinity in the prophet is pretty sad. It's just a bunch of idiots getting out of hand.
On February 10 2012 03:27 LittleAtari wrote: Quite a few Muslims have issues with celebrating the birthday of Prophet Muhammad. Popular Muslim belief is that the prophet was human, so for this guy to persecuted for denouncing divinity in the prophet is pretty sad. It's just a bunch of idiots getting out of hand.
It pisses me off so much too. Every recorded event with Muhammad has him simply claiming to be Allah's messanger, not his son/embodiment/etc.
On February 10 2012 00:45 sermokala wrote: People don't understand how fundementaly backward the middle east is and why america thinks that we need to invade for their oil.
this is pretty much why. You can't expect them to be your friends while you shit on their culture and you can't shit on their culture without condemning thousands to death for one reason or another.
the reason why iran hate us so much is that we granted a guy that they hate a lot asylum in our country and saved his life. don't give a shit reason like its the right thing to do when you're talking about international politics.
Yes you totally nailed it. Iran's hatred for the US has absolutely nothing to do with our support of Israel, our meddling in the politics of their region, or our support of the previous ruler. [/sarcasm]
As long as there is oil,Isreal & Iran nothing serious will ever happen.
There is a facebook group with thousands of muslims calling for the execution of Hamza Kashgari. As of this moment, there is no facebook group that calls for mercy.
Much much crazier things have happened in the Middle East that provoke pretty much the same reaction.
On February 10 2012 03:47 Scootaloo wrote: And people say Islam is a peaceful religion when stuff like this is directly written in the Qu'ran, religion of peace right?
I'm going to take a stance of pragmatism. Unless you are planning to do something about this, you just have to accept it. Worse atrocities happen everyday in this world and getting up in arms about every single one is impractical.
I'm not saying that what is happening to this man is right. What I'm saying is, what are you planning to do about it? Forcing people to accept democracy isn't democracy.
why is anybody surprised here? First of all it's Saudi Arabia the country with the strictest sunni law. And then we got a dude who made stupid comments on twitter publicly saying that Mohammad is not something special and that he is equal to him? That's what broke his back. It's basic Islam knowledge that there will be no prophets after Mohammad and he just said that he is one. And they will kill him for that I have no doubt.
The first two tweets are not really a big problem but the last one was too much.
On February 10 2012 00:42 zalz wrote: I say people because this is not a totalitarian regime acting against the wishes of its people. This is a totalitarian theocracy acting entirely according to the wishes of the people.
You're contradicting yourself here... Isn't Hamza a Saudi? does he wish for a death penalty? I think not, I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion, but you couldn't be more wrong; as this would mean Saudi is in fact a democratic country, which is just not true.
The guy is going to be prosecuted for speaking out on the internet and then you wonder where are the facebook groups defending him are? Even if fear is not a factor, lets just pretend indifference is. If that was a crime, then most of the western world would be guilty of it for the crimes that their governments have committed. Does Saudi have an environment that cultivate nut jobs such are the ones calling for his death? Undoubtedly yes, but you have no evidence to how much of society they represent and to suggest that that government gives a crap about what anyone thinks is just untrue. Because if was true, then a most Saudis like living in poverty in the richest country in the world, and like unemployment and corruption and thrive with the fact that no one has any right to speak about it!
On February 10 2012 04:00 Skilledblob wrote: why is anybody surprised here? First of all it's Saudi Arabia the country with the strictest sunni law. And then we got a dude who made stupid comments on twitter publicly saying that Mohammad is not something special and that he is equal to him? That's what broke his back. It's basic Islam knowledge that there will be no prophets after Mohammad and he just said that he is one. And they will kill him for that I have no doubt.
If anything he stated that Muhammed was not a prophet and thus they are the same, both human.
He never claims himself a prophet, only that he doubts the air of divinity around Muhammed.
On February 10 2012 04:00 Skilledblob wrote: why is anybody surprised here? First of all it's Saudi Arabia the country with the strictest sunni law. And then we got a dude who made stupid comments on twitter publicly saying that Mohammad is not something special and that he is equal to him? That's what broke his back. It's basic Islam knowledge that there will be no prophets after Mohammad and he just said that he is one. And they will kill him for that I have no doubt.
If anything he stated that Muhammed was not a prophet and thus they are the same, both human.
He never claims himself a prophet, only that he doubts the air of divinity around Muhammed.
On February 10 2012 00:54 Le French wrote: The French discovered the solution to harmony in multiculturalism many many years ago:
Get the fuck off people's backyard! It's easy to debate on ideals and pure order, but we have to realized different people operate on different values. Given that most of us don't know about this in full detail, it's better that we leave them alone to sort this out.
I honestly don't know Islam law, and I don't know the gravity of his words in accordance to religion, but the most I think we can do is to leave this to the experts of traditional and progressive Islam culture and see how this recent event falls. The less people who know nothing say about this, and the more those who have authoritative knowledge on the topic express the facts and opinions, the better the discussion will be.
While I agree we should ignore it because its not our problem, the issue is its unbalanced punishment and way over the top for his crime. If he said that in any country with real tangible rights he would not get in any trouble for using freedom of speech. These countries have government and religion so heavily intertwined that they are killing people for going against their faith and forcing it on others. Must of us can agree this is wrong on any rational scale and therefore condemnable. I won't deny some issues have gray areas but if you can't see that its wrong to kill someone for tweeting three lines then you/your country needs to seriously reevaluate itself.
any nation isn't anyone's backyard. you're not French, you are a human living within the boundaries that royalty generations ago claimed and called France. if my parents didn't move generations ago, i would be European and not American. you really must place no value in human life if a silly thing like borders gives you a justified excuse to let people take other people's lives for no decent reason.
On February 10 2012 03:39 CadaverSculptor wrote: Guess what Saudi, I'm infinitely superior to Muhammad. He eats my shit for all 3 meals of the day. So suck it.
lmao. some saudi assassin will come get you now sir. good day
Saudi Arabia is terribly socially backwards and they along with the other Gulf countries and Iran give a terribly bad name to all Mideastern peoples and Muslims. Shame Lebanon isn't more influential and Iraq, well, it's hit rock bottom, and is becoming Islamified anyways. Yeah, the Mideast is screwed.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
A friend of Kashgari told the Daily Beast “Everyone who tried to objectively deal with this case was immediately stigmatized and labeled an enemy of the prophet, who therefore should suffer the same fate Hamza is awaiting.”
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
Not quite sure how they correlate, at least enough to pin point that out of everything else that's happened in the last couple centuries, but ok.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
I would say that it got this way because their upper class discovered oil and managed to get even richer than imaginable, while their population was still socially "undeveloped". This creates a situation where the rich got so rich so fast that morally theyre just a little less terrible than their parents but their power is enormous in comparison.
Imagine there was a country that culturally was about as developed as "we" were just before what we call "the renaissance" or something like it. Imagine now that these people discovered huge quantities of diamonds on their little island where they lived. They would earn gigantic amounts of money, but culturally would very much stay the same. Their kids would hold basically the same values as their parents but they would have tonnes of diamondmoney.
no 1st world country is going to go against ancient laws about not questioning a religion, i believe every human has a right to live regardless of your background or beliefs, and the people making groups to kill that guy?! wtf is wrong with the people who manage facebook? they should shut that evil fueled group of people and tell them to keep it to their own damned country. fuck the people who praise this guys death, obviously they only encourage the wrong things and have never ever faced misery or death first hand...
On February 10 2012 04:27 FlyingToilet wrote: no 1st world country is going to go against ancient laws about not questioning a religion, i believe every human has a right to live regardless of your background or beliefs, and the people making groups to kill that guy?! wtf is wrong with the people who manage facebook? they should shut that evil fueled group of people and tell them to keep it to their own damned country. fuck the people who praise this guys death, obviously they only encourage the wrong things and have never ever faced misery or death first hand...
Facebook CEO might be really scared of the consequences if they were to shut that group. Unfortunately there's not much to do.
I sometimes wonder how the human brain can cope with thousands of years of both religious fanaticism and logical thinking. Isn't that like a huge paradoxical bubble prone to pop? I don't think religion is the scourge of humanity as much as just pure ignorance which a lot of religious people apparently have a surplus of.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
I would say that it got this way because their upper class discovered oil and managed to get even richer than imaginable, while their population was still socially "undeveloped". This creates a situation where the rich got so rich so fast that morally theyre just a little less terrible than their parents but their power is enormous in comparison.
Imagine there was a country that culturally was about as developed as "we" were just before what we call "the renaissance" or something like it. Imagine now that these people discovered huge quantities of diamonds on their little island where they lived. They would earn gigantic amounts of money, but culturally would very much stay the same. Their kids would hold basically the same values as their parents but they would have tonnes of diamondmoney.
That is Saudi Arabia.
Depends on how you view the House of the Saud. After reading a book on them and watching a frontline doc I have to say they seem quite pragmatic and realpolitik as well as openly clashing with religious mullah's who retain great power over the population and the House. I think the issue is more complicated then seems....
On February 10 2012 03:05 Eiaco wrote: A pathetic, inhuman country. A country that never has (or will) achieve anything notable other than being the oil dealer for the world. Seriously, this country only still exists because of that black stuff under their feet.
You realize that the middle east was the cradle of civilization and that medicine philosophy and alot of the things we enjoy were recorded by them and shared with us when they would move up into europe
You guys should understand that its not religion doing this its the people running the theocracy they are corrupt there is nothing wrong with religion at all.
On February 10 2012 02:29 v3chr0 wrote: Sad thing is, this probably happens to so many people around the world in countless situations, and only the ones who get notoriety for their actions have a chance for intervention. I think someone should help him out, you shouldn't be condemned for questioning things, that's actually the greatest thing you can ever do is question - and thats probably why they don't tolerate it; people thinking outside of their bonds? Slay him! it's archaic and maybe even stupid to let cultures and religions dictate the direction of a society. Most of these people are so brain washed to hate Western(ers) (influence) it causes a lot of unneccisary hate when we're just trying to help these people.
Everyone complains nobody does anything, then when people do, particularly the U.S, all the outrage is just the same, but from a different group of people. You can't win politically, for some reason people think letting people live under these conditions is Ok, everyone should be free to make such remarks, and question things among most else. The matter of how seem to be an issue I guess. Do the right thing, you cannot ignore a situation because the people doing it believe it's right, fuck them, what if it was your Life, or a family members, its nonsensical.
US outrage is seen as hypocrisy because lots of things people get outraged about are things that the country has problems with. Having people live under these conditions is not okay, but there is no good way of solving it. When America shows that it is worthy of its holier-than-thou attitude, it may gain the right to call other countries out on their imperfections because it is already above it. Until then, attempts at "helping" other countries are nothing but selfish actions buried under demagogical excuses.
when the U.S. stops having all of its products made with slave-wage laborers even though slavery is illegal in the U.S. then they'll have room to talk.
On February 10 2012 04:59 ShakAttaK wrote: You guys should understand that its not religion doing this its the people running the theocracy they are corrupt there is nothing wrong with religion at all.
Stupid ideas don't kill people. Bad people using stupid ideas for their own benefit kill people.
On February 10 2012 03:05 Eiaco wrote: A pathetic, inhuman country. A country that never has (or will) achieve anything notable other than being the oil dealer for the world. Seriously, this country only still exists because of that black stuff under their feet.
You realize that the middle east was the cradle of civilization and that medicine philosophy and alot of the things we enjoy were recorded by them and shared with us when they would move up into europe
Yes, but you have to realize the downfall of their civilization and science basically begun when more and more people got converted to Islam(Disclaimer, I don't have anything against Islam)+ Show Spoiler +
On February 10 2012 03:05 Eiaco wrote: A pathetic, inhuman country. A country that never has (or will) achieve anything notable other than being the oil dealer for the world. Seriously, this country only still exists because of that black stuff under their feet.
You realize that the middle east was the cradle of civilization and that medicine philosophy and alot of the things we enjoy were recorded by them and shared with us when they would move up into europe
Greece is on the edge of financial ruin.
Are they not on the edge of ruin because, once, their civilization was insanely advanced for it's time?
The middle-east used to be the center of the world when it came to knowledge, and even their economy was booming. But does that mean that today, they still get credit for that?
Holland used to be one of the strongest countries in the world. During its golden age, it was at the pinacle of economic development and scientific discovery.
But none of that means much. It's interesting history, but history does not give credit for today.
After I read/watched The Kite Runner none of this seems surprising. Whenever anybody complains about the government in America, all I can think is that if you replaced the USA's government with others from around the world--whether it's Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, or wherever else--you'd find that your government is pretty great in comparison.
This is really atrocious. It's sad, but what I think is even more sad is that this does not surprise me in the least bit.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
The real question is not how wrong that is, but how much cynical we are to be allied to such regime just because we get benefits out of it.
European and America are ready to compromise with any kind of tyranny as soon as it serves our interests. It would be fine if we didn't claim all day long that we have values and that we care about "human rights". And if we didn't bomb and invade country in the name of those values we are ready to shit on at the first occasion.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
To clarify, Women in Saudi Arabia Cannot make a single decision about their life without a male "guardian", this includes, what they eat, education, if they want to travel, if they want to work and so on. All women are essentially considered a minor where a an adult male has to make all the decisions for her.
Further the law that protects men doesn't work the same way for women, some laws don't protect them at all and the court has a open discrimination where a testimonial from two women is equal to one man. On September 2011 the country announced that the women were allowed to vote, however of course the women vote are less worth than the man and the women needs it's guardian permission to actually go and vote.
so as you can see, the country is fucked up in more than one way.
Sad. I do wish there was more freedom of speech in the Middle East, but I also wish people would make more intelligent choices. He obviously shouldn't have publicly questioned Islam while living in a country that would kill him for doing so. If these beliefs were so important to him to express, it seems to me the natural course of action is to leave the country first, before you choose to enrage the people with guns.
Not saying what he did was wrong, just... a little dumb. Still, if he's happy to martyr himself for the right to question religion then more power to him.
What a sensationalist thread. wtf TL. They are not killing him, there is a populist outcry in favor of killing him. Now aren't we glad Saudi Arabia isn't a democracy?
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
To clarify, Women in Saudi Arabia Cannot make a single decision about their life without a male "guardian", this includes, what they eat, education, if they want to travel, if they want to work and so on. All women are essentially considered a minor where a an adult male has to make all the decisions for her.
Further the law that protects men doesn't work the same way for women, some laws don't protect them at all and the court has a open discrimination where a testimonial from two women is equal to one man. On September 2011 the country announced that the women were allowed to vote, however of course the women vote are less worth than the man and the women needs it's guardian permission to actually go and vote.
so as you can see, the country is fucked up in more than one way.
Not to mention how little Saudi elections matter. Ultimately a king is still in charge and can override anything he doesn't like.
On February 10 2012 08:33 Half wrote: What a sensationalist thread. wtf TL. They are not killing him, there is a populist outcry in favor of killing him. Now aren't we glad Saudi Arabia isn't a democracy?
He commited a death penalty offense though. Maybe the government isn't going to prosecute/kill him (although quite a few Saudis want that to happen), but they legally could.
If this wasn't being reported on mainstream outlets worldwide this guy would be fucked.
I think its tragic if this guy dies for this. But, it is not our duty to change the Middle East. They will... eventually.. change. The backwards extremists that are the majority in the Middle East will one day realize how insane they are. Sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone. But I think the killing of this man is absolutely insane (although it is nothing new) and it is why I believe the world would be a better place without religion. Especially extremists who take religion to the next level, as is common in the Middle East.
Haven't we all learned that the middle east is a fucked up place? Even locals that live there would agree with me. It's not safe, it's not normal and its certainly not civilized.
On February 10 2012 04:05 Inori wrote: It's like part of earth is stuck in 1500s.
1500s? more like 1950s, doesn't this hold any resemblance to Mccarthysim witch hunts in the states at that time? actually in a way those were worse, because people were prosecuted without evidence! Face it, stupidity and prejudice will always be part of out creed. And to think that a single society have a monopoly over it is just ignorant!
To clarify, Women in Saudi Arabia Cannot make a single decision about their life without a male "guardian", this includes, what they eat, education, if they want to travel, if they want to work and so on. All women are essentially considered a minor where a an adult male has to make all the decisions for her.
Further the law that protects men doesn't work the same way for women, some laws don't protect them at all and the court has a open discrimination where a testimonial from two women is equal to one man. On September 2011 the country announced that the women were allowed to vote, however of course the women vote are less worth than the man and the women needs it's guardian permission to actually go and vote.
so as you can see, the country is fucked up in more than one way.
Not to mention how little Saudi elections matter. Ultimately a king is still in charge and can override anything he doesn't like.
LOL ya, It can't even be called an election since it's still being decided by the ruler.
On February 10 2012 02:29 v3chr0 wrote: Sad thing is, this probably happens to so many people around the world in countless situations, and only the ones who get notoriety for their actions have a chance for intervention. I think someone should help him out, you shouldn't be condemned for questioning things, that's actually the greatest thing you can ever do is question - and thats probably why they don't tolerate it; people thinking outside of their bonds? Slay him! it's archaic and maybe even stupid to let cultures and religions dictate the direction of a society. Most of these people are so brain washed to hate Western(ers) (influence) it causes a lot of unneccisary hate when we're just trying to help these people.
Everyone complains nobody does anything, then when people do, particularly the U.S, all the outrage is just the same, but from a different group of people. You can't win politically, for some reason people think letting people live under these conditions is Ok, everyone should be free to make such remarks, and question things among most else. The matter of how seem to be an issue I guess. Do the right thing, you cannot ignore a situation because the people doing it believe it's right, fuck them, what if it was your Life, or a family members, its nonsensical.
US outrage is seen as hypocrisy because lots of things people get outraged about are things that the country has problems with. Having people live under these conditions is not okay, but there is no good way of solving it. When America shows that it is worthy of its holier-than-thou attitude, it may gain the right to call other countries out on their imperfections because it is already above it. Until then, attempts at "helping" other countries are nothing but selfish actions buried under demagogical excuses.
To compare any injustice within the USA in this day and age vs executing someone for speaking out about a religion, is insanity. US citizens are entitled to their damn opinions to condemn this because we give ourselves that right.
On February 10 2012 08:40 llKenZyll wrote: Haven't we all learned that the middle east is a fucked up place? Even locals that live there would agree with me. It's not safe, it's not normal and its certainly not civilized.
Guess what, I'm a local, and I feel more safe here then in the US or Europe. Can people for once stop patronizing the middle east. You look at us like a bunch of kids. A bunch of stupid people with no self control, as well as religious fanatics that mention "allah" every other sentence. It is very unfortunate that at least 60% of the people are truly so, but that leaves a good 40% of people who are the exact opposite. People who think, and do stuff and believe in moralistic view.
Just because a great deal of americans are red knecks doesn't mean any american I meet I'm going to classify as a red kneck. Saudi Arabia might be a backward country, but Saudi Arabia is not the middle east. Saudi arabia is not arabs, and Saudi arabia is not islam. I don't get how any of you can talk about this subject when none of you has even been here ( Or so I'm assuming). This is more complex than I can care to write. That guy did something fully knowing he could be killed by doing it. People have been killed for less in Saudi Arabia. Trust me. And people who have done worse have gotten away clean. When you go pick a fight you know you're gonna lose, I don't think you should expect sympathy from others. Dont' go picking that fight. I'm not defending the Saudis, but that guy ain't clever as well...
On February 10 2012 08:40 llKenZyll wrote: Haven't we all learned that the middle east is a fucked up place? Even locals that live there would agree with me. It's not safe, it's not normal and its certainly not civilized.
Guess what, I'm a local, and I feel more safe here then in the US or Europe. Can people for once stop patronizing the middle east. You look at us like a bunch of kids. A bunch of stupid people with no self control, as well as religious fanatics that mention "allah" every other sentence. It is very unfortunate that at least 60% of the people are truly so, but that leaves a good 40% of people who are the exact opposite. People who think, and do stuff and believe in moralistic view.
Just because a great deal of americans are red knecks doesn't mean any american I meet I'm going to classify as a red kneck. Saudi Arabia might be a backward country, but Saudi Arabia is not the middle east. Saudi arabia is not arabs, and Saudi arabia is not islam. I don't get how any of you can talk about this subject when none of you has even been here ( Or so I'm assuming). This is more complex than I can care to write. That guy did something fully knowing he could be killed by doing it. People have been killed for less in Saudi Arabia. Trust me. And people who have done worse have gotten away clean. When you go pick a fight you know you're gonna lose, I don't think you should expect sympathy from others. Dont' go picking that fight. I'm not defending the Saudis, but that guy ain't clever as well...
I think the point is that it shouldn't be a fight you're going to lose - he didn't even denounce his religion, he just questioned it? And even barely at that. Saudi Arabia may not represent all of muslims/arabs/islam but it is very good example of a backward religious system.
I guess people in the west value freedom of speech?
There is a fine line between practicing your religion and being an extremist. Extremism is usually practiced in a flawed manner anyways, and with an entire government backing these practices, you get a lot of really scary "mob thought" scenarios such as the one portrayed in the thread that was made here not too long ago featuring a female being stoned.
On February 10 2012 00:45 sermokala wrote: People don't understand how fundementaly backward the middle east is and why america thinks that we need to invade for their oil.
this is pretty much why. You can't expect them to be your friends while you shit on their culture and you can't shit on their culture without condemning thousands to death for one reason or another.
the reason why iran hate us so much is that we granted a guy that they hate a lot asylum in our country and saved his life. don't give a shit reason like its the right thing to do when you're talking about international politics.
iranians hate you guys for lots of crimes you comited
On February 10 2012 10:36 ZiegFeld wrote: This mofo has the right idea about religion.
Too bad he's a dumbass for doing this in a third world country, about the religion Islam, and not thinking about the consequences.
Sometimes you just got to keep your mouth the f shut.
It takes martyrs to begin new religious institutions and it always takes martyrs to get people out once the instition becomes a degenerate and hulking embarassment. So props to the guy....
On February 10 2012 10:36 ZiegFeld wrote: This mofo has the right idea about religion.
Too bad he's a dumbass for doing this in a third world country, about the religion Islam, and not thinking about the consequences.
Sometimes you just got to keep your mouth the f shut.
It takes martyrs to begin new religious institutions and it always takes martyrs to get people out once the instition becomes a degenerate and hulking embarassment. So props to the guy....
There's nothing wrong with Islam, or any religion for that matter.
It's the idiots that take things too literally and decide to kill people and blow stuff up, which gives the whole religion a bad name.
Islam just seems to have a worse case of idiotic followers in comparison to other religions, most likely due to it's demographics. (i.e uneducated people in third world countries)
Saudi should be ashamed and I hope USA will come democratize the place with armed force like they did in Iraq and Lybia where the human rights weren't even as bad. Oh wait... they are selling their oil on a dollar basis and don't want to switch like the other country mentioned ? Mehhh, liberty isn't that important you know...
On February 10 2012 08:40 llKenZyll wrote: Haven't we all learned that the middle east is a fucked up place? Even locals that live there would agree with me. It's not safe, it's not normal and its certainly not civilized.
Guess what, I'm a local, and I feel more safe here then in the US or Europe. Can people for once stop patronizing the middle east. You look at us like a bunch of kids. A bunch of stupid people with no self control, as well as religious fanatics that mention "allah" every other sentence. It is very unfortunate that at least 60% of the people are truly so, but that leaves a good 40% of people who are the exact opposite. People who think, and do stuff and believe in moralistic view.
Just because a great deal of americans are red knecks doesn't mean any american I meet I'm going to classify as a red kneck. Saudi Arabia might be a backward country, but Saudi Arabia is not the middle east. Saudi arabia is not arabs, and Saudi arabia is not islam. I don't get how any of you can talk about this subject when none of you has even been here ( Or so I'm assuming). This is more complex than I can care to write. That guy did something fully knowing he could be killed by doing it. People have been killed for less in Saudi Arabia. Trust me. And people who have done worse have gotten away clean. When you go pick a fight you know you're gonna lose, I don't think you should expect sympathy from others. Dont' go picking that fight. I'm not defending the Saudis, but that guy ain't clever as well...
Admittedly I don't know all that much about the middle east, but you yourself just said that the majority of the population is composed of religious fanatics with no self control. I don't see how that can be considered safe or civilized, at least when compared to places in Europe and the USA.
On February 10 2012 08:40 llKenZyll wrote: Haven't we all learned that the middle east is a fucked up place? Even locals that live there would agree with me. It's not safe, it's not normal and its certainly not civilized.
Guess what, I'm a local, and I feel more safe here then in the US or Europe. Can people for once stop patronizing the middle east. You look at us like a bunch of kids. A bunch of stupid people with no self control, as well as religious fanatics that mention "allah" every other sentence. It is very unfortunate that at least 60% of the people are truly so, but that leaves a good 40% of people who are the exact opposite. People who think, and do stuff and believe in moralistic view.
Just because a great deal of americans are red knecks doesn't mean any american I meet I'm going to classify as a red kneck. Saudi Arabia might be a backward country, but Saudi Arabia is not the middle east. Saudi arabia is not arabs, and Saudi arabia is not islam. I don't get how any of you can talk about this subject when none of you has even been here ( Or so I'm assuming). This is more complex than I can care to write. That guy did something fully knowing he could be killed by doing it. People have been killed for less in Saudi Arabia. Trust me. And people who have done worse have gotten away clean. When you go pick a fight you know you're gonna lose, I don't think you should expect sympathy from others. Dont' go picking that fight. I'm not defending the Saudis, but that guy ain't clever as well...
Your logic falters a bit here. In fact, not only should he be picking the fight, but many others should as well, so that it is not lost. Just like it happened in Egypt - the masses stood up to the dictator (I'm not saying that this has been any full-blown success yet). If he did this on purpose, of course we should have sympathy with the hero who's trying to stand up for honesty and a more straight-forward relation to your religion.
The fact that consequences are likely to be dire means that you might not dare to do it yourself, but you certainly cannot hold it against anyone that they do.
This is truly depressing, like many others have expressed though, it is not uncommon for Saudi Arabia. Its possible that he was trying to make a point with his tweets but never expected such a storm, as I personally doubt that he thought those tweets would not be at all attention grabbing. The legal system there has gotten much attention, but while I feel, and many will agree: something SHOULD be done, no one really knows what can be done.
On February 10 2012 10:36 ZiegFeld wrote: This mofo has the right idea about religion.
Too bad he's a dumbass for doing this in a third world country, about the religion Islam, and not thinking about the consequences.
Sometimes you just got to keep your mouth the f shut.
It takes martyrs to begin new religious institutions and it always takes martyrs to get people out once the instition becomes a degenerate and hulking embarassment. So props to the guy....
There's nothing wrong with Islam, or any religion for that matter.
It's the idiots that take things too literally and decide to kill people and blow stuff up, which gives the whole religion a bad name.
Islam just seems to have a worse case of idiotic followers in comparison to other religions, most likely due to it's demographics. (i.e uneducated people in third world countries)
Islam will get alot of heat in the future because of the rapid growth of it globally, you're not going to be able to get around it even if we all know the majority of Islam followers are fine people.
Admittedly (as obvious in earlier posts of mine in thread) I despise all religions equally. In this day and age all that money, gas and time spent on doing religious crap is simply inefficient and a waste of time. Our country the USA is still hanging on to its Christian majority but seems to be rapidly slowing in growth.
On February 10 2012 11:01 Diks wrote: Saudi should be ashamed and I hope USA will come democratize the place with armed force like they did in Iraq and Lybia where the human rights weren't even as bad. Oh wait... they are selling their oil on a dollar basis and don't want to switch like the other country mentioned ? Mehhh, liberty isn't that important you know...
Damn, that's a really heavy price to pay for voicing your opinion.
I have to ask out of curiosity, was he well aware of the possible consequences of his action, or was he surprised at how quickly his nation turned on him?
Its pretty fascinating to think that there is actually an entire country that is that zealous in their religious practice. Usually religious fanaticism is propagated from the top down as a controlling tool, but if tens of thousands of Saudi netizens are calling for his death.... just kind of mind blowing for me i suppose.
Fundamentalist Islam is heavily subsidized by oil. It's hard to imagine a society being globally competitive under such repression. Assuming that technology allows the world a relatively smooth transition into a post oil economy, these places will be the next hellholes on Earth.
On February 10 2012 11:01 Diks wrote: Saudi should be ashamed and I hope USA will come democratize the place with armed force like they did in Iraq and Lybia where the human rights weren't even as bad. Oh wait... they are selling their oil on a dollar basis and don't want to switch like the other country mentioned ? Mehhh, liberty isn't that important you know...
Libya now has an Islamic fundamentalism and Iraq is authoritarian. Not very democratic at all haha, not to mention democratizing or altruism was not at all the goal for these wars, and it hasn't been the case for any country in history, either. It's called a justification. You can't tell people about expanding imperialist and strategic interests or you won't be able to sell a war. Read history, and no nation has ever done that. But then you contradicted yourself with the second part of your comment, where you note how Saudi is a loyal pawn of ours so they don't get invaded or anything despite enforcing one of the most atrocious societies in the world, so I don't know what you're getting at. :S Anyways, AFAIK in both countries, women and minorities had significant social rights, even comparable to many developed countries, before change of regimes, not to mention Iraq was one of the greatest opponents to Islamic fanaticism before it got fucked up the past 20 years, so if you're implying they were invaded because people had to follow Sharia, that surely was not the case at all because there wasn't Sharia (Libya has it now though).
Speaking of switching trade currency, the Iraqis did that in 2000/2001, and other Arab countries were very strongly considering it. If anything, the Iraq War succeeded in stopped that from happening (as we know, Iraq trades on the dollar and no one else near them except Iran has the slightest thought anymore of switching to the euro or something), or else it would have been catastrophic for the petrodollar had these countries switched to trading on the Euro.
On February 10 2012 12:01 stokes17 wrote: Damn, that's a really heavy price to pay for voicing your opinion.
I have to ask out of curiosity, was he well aware of the possible consequences of his action, or was he surprised at how quickly his nation turned on him?
Its pretty fascinating to think that there is actually an entire country that is that zealous in their religious practice. Usually religious fanaticism is propagated from the top down as a controlling tool, but if tens of thousands of Saudi netizens are calling for his death.... just kind of mind blowing for me i suppose.
Yes because the rot sinks in after a while, even if it is top down you know, repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth. That has what has happened to Saudi and lets be honest the hypocrisy of calling it out after your own Govt is in bed with them should be appalling to people who value "freedom of speech".
Yea any chance most of these countries had to avoid narrow minded and perverse theocracies was pretty much taken away with foreign intervention and the big boys striking deals to protect there own interests. Everytime these countries have had a chance to move forward in the last few decades the reset button has been hit. Why do they make deals with these people? Because they are easier to deal with. They are either against you or with you. Strong democracies or rather strong Govts are harder to deal with because they can tell you to fuck off when things dont serve their interests, without giving you an excuse to call them an enemy or a threat. Saudi fundamentalism gets exported to poor countries, even today. I know its fucked mine up over the course of the last 30 years. People were rocking bell-bottoms and discoing like anywhere else in the 70's before that. Cant do that anymore, atleast not publicly
And these are just the Saudis in control mind you, theres good educated people there around there. Its just that life is relatively easy there because they have so much money that not enough people if anyone really is willing to give what they have up. But now its to a stage where alot of these places will need a fundamental overhaul that will only come in future generations and only if they choose to do it.
Ill leave you with this, she can articulate myself better than I can and well shes American
EPT
