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On February 10 2012 03:10 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:07 Sawajiri wrote:On February 10 2012 02:40 sermokala wrote: If it had any name other then marriage it wouldn't have been a problem but the gay rights movement keep trying to poke the religious right and constantly try and fight them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? There is such a thing as gay Christians. I highly doubt that the only reason why gay people are seeking the right to marry is because they want to start a verbal mudslinging match with the religious right. Plenty of homosexuals are religious and/or conservative. To them it's not just a matter of picking a fight, but wanting to get married because the word 'marriage' has a meaning and value to them. I'm not even gay but I find it pretty offensive you're trying to put it as if all gay people were only seeking the right to marry to piss off other people. Its not gay people that are causing the problem. the leading protestant organization is now allowing gay pastors to serve. Its all the anti religious people coming out of the woodwork to shit on religious people with easy ammunition. we either object to it and get called bigots or don't and get called hypocrites.
Blacks aren't people
Women can't vote
Gay's can't marry
Are you noticing a trend? You're on the wrong side of the fence here pal. Jesus wouldn't be on your side FYI. I know that sounds CRAZY but he wouldn't. It's so funny to see religious people arguing about the sanctity of marriage, when they should know full well how their MESSIAH wouldn't care about two guys splitting the rent. Marriage isn't a religious thing anymore, let go of it
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On February 10 2012 03:23 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them?
Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now?
Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Actually I wasn't comparing you to nazis I was just explaining freedom of speech. I didn't mean for you take to it that way. I'm acting like a complete dick? I'm not advocating against you believing what you believe. I'm advocating against you imposing your beliefs on others. You don't think gays should call it marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex. Bam. That's a great solution for you. But no. Thats not good enough. You have tell people how to live their lives. And when they fight back you have the gall to play the victim??? What a fucking joke. Okay first when you quote someone you can just click on the quote button and it has their name and the whole post on there. it makes it a lot better and take less time. Being against gay marriage isn't imposing our beliefs on other people. Stop reading propaganda on the issue all the time and think about it for yourself. if you want a shout fest on things your in the wrong place. At the very least if you want to debate someone start by being respectful and address all their points. its a real shame when the side that has a clear shared ideology is the one that thinks for themself and doesn't use pointless stawman arguments that they saw on some random site.
Are you straight (i.e. not gay)? Are you against gay marriage? Then you are imposing your belief on other people.
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On February 10 2012 03:40 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:10 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:07 Sawajiri wrote:On February 10 2012 02:40 sermokala wrote: If it had any name other then marriage it wouldn't have been a problem but the gay rights movement keep trying to poke the religious right and constantly try and fight them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? There is such a thing as gay Christians. I highly doubt that the only reason why gay people are seeking the right to marry is because they want to start a verbal mudslinging match with the religious right. Plenty of homosexuals are religious and/or conservative. To them it's not just a matter of picking a fight, but wanting to get married because the word 'marriage' has a meaning and value to them. I'm not even gay but I find it pretty offensive you're trying to put it as if all gay people were only seeking the right to marry to piss off other people. Its not gay people that are causing the problem. the leading protestant organization is now allowing gay pastors to serve. Its all the anti religious people coming out of the woodwork to shit on religious people with easy ammunition. we either object to it and get called bigots or don't and get called hypocrites. Blacks aren't people Women can't vote Gay's can't marry Are you noticing a trend? You're on the wrong side of the fence here pal. Jesus wouldn't be on your side FYI. I know that sounds CRAZY but he wouldn't. It's so funny to see religious people arguing about the sanctity of marriage, when they should know full well how their MESSIAH wouldn't care about two guys splitting the rent. Marriage isn't a religious thing anymore, let go of it
It was never a religious thing in the first place.
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All Jesus cared about with regard to weddings was making sure the bridesmaids brought enough oil for their lamps.
Practical advice, but not necessarily helpful in this situation.
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On February 10 2012 03:42 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:23 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them?
Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now?
Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Actually I wasn't comparing you to nazis I was just explaining freedom of speech. I didn't mean for you take to it that way. I'm acting like a complete dick? I'm not advocating against you believing what you believe. I'm advocating against you imposing your beliefs on others. You don't think gays should call it marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex. Bam. That's a great solution for you. But no. Thats not good enough. You have tell people how to live their lives. And when they fight back you have the gall to play the victim??? What a fucking joke. Okay first when you quote someone you can just click on the quote button and it has their name and the whole post on there. it makes it a lot better and take less time. Being against gay marriage isn't imposing our beliefs on other people. Stop reading propaganda on the issue all the time and think about it for yourself. if you want a shout fest on things your in the wrong place. At the very least if you want to debate someone start by being respectful and address all their points. its a real shame when the side that has a clear shared ideology is the one that thinks for themself and doesn't use pointless stawman arguments that they saw on some random site. Are you straight (i.e. not gay)? Are you against gay marriage? Then you are imposing your belief on other people.
Even if he is gay he would be imposing his beliefs on other gay people.
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I'll just do this all in one post and spoiler the quote so they don't' get out of control. I'll do them in order of post date so greater spire is first.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:17 Greater Spire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:10 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:07 Sawajiri wrote:On February 10 2012 02:40 sermokala wrote: If it had any name other then marriage it wouldn't have been a problem but the gay rights movement keep trying to poke the religious right and constantly try and fight them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? There is such a thing as gay Christians. I highly doubt that the only reason why gay people are seeking the right to marry is because they want to start a verbal mudslinging match with the religious right. Plenty of homosexuals are religious and/or conservative. To them it's not just a matter of picking a fight, but wanting to get married because the word 'marriage' has a meaning and value to them. I'm not even gay but I find it pretty offensive you're trying to put it as if all gay people were only seeking the right to marry to piss off other people. Its not gay people that are causing the problem. the leading protestant organization is now allowing gay pastors to serve. Its all the anti religious people coming out of the woodwork to shit on religious people with easy ammunition. we either object to it and get called bigots or don't and get called hypocrites. Then leave the leading Protestant organisation. Nobody is forcing you to be a part of it. The fact that there are Church services every Sunday that I disagree with does not mean I am forced to attend. I can "shit on religious people" even without gay marriage - there are many things religious people can be reasonably attacked on - the fact that they are against abortion, the fact that they are against euthanasia, the fact that they are against evolution, the fact that they are against contraception, etc. And furthermore - why are you using words like shit when you are supposedly a Christian? Isn't that rather unChristian?
You've had some pretty low quality posts other then this train but I'll ignore them for the sake of coherency. Most of your posts come from this very thread so I really wonder how you came on tl at all. I was making a point and you decide to automatically attack it? you didn't even talk about it in any way just tried to twist it into your narrow arguments. this whole time I've tried to spread out what we are talking about and you refuse to elaborate on any of them other then attacking me. you're not going to get anywhere by attacking someone in a debate and I'm really not going to try anymore if thats all you are going to try and do. its junk posters like you that we can't have religious threads. the fact that you can't see that is saddening but I really hope that if you ever want to talk to someone about this that you care for and don't have the same viewpoint as you that you understand this and try to change that.
This is darkong's
+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:18 Darkong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:57 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 02:45 DoubleReed wrote:People keep asking like the Christians are being a dick in this case but they arn't trying to change anything. being against something and talking about it is freedom of speech but forcing things on people is just bad. its real funny how you can assume the moral high ground when you are calling everyone else bigots. What? Is calling someone a bigot who is a bigot immoral? Freedom of speech? No one saying you're not allowed to have your views. We're condemning you for your views. That's how freedom of speech works. Nazis can say whatever they want and nonNazis call them out on their bullshit. There's no issue with freedom of speech here. I don't understand how christians are being attacked by this. What changes about their lives at all?? I don't understand how you can use the law to impose your beliefs on others and then play the victim!! Oh no you poor Christians! Not being able to enforce your power on others! Woe is you!! Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them? Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now? Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Why is marriage a big deal to you christians when it actually has little if anything to do with christianity? Marriage is sanctioned by the state not the church, the church involvement is purely ceremonial. Marriage pre-dates christanity by many thousands of years and has existed in one name or another in almost every culture, its a bit late in the day to try and lay sole claim to it now.
Just because someone was created by someone else doesn't mean that someone else can't make it significant to them. during the reformation and middle ages it became a much bigger deal. It doesn't take that much to understand this point in a modern age but I'm pretty sure thats where it started. there isn't really anything else that cares about marriage other then the church. everything that the state has done with it was mearly a cooperation with it and to help out middle class families and other economic things. Obama wants civil unions because he doesn't want to fight the religious right over it for one and its pretty funny that in this case I support him and you are against him. Its not really a sole claim thing. even if the Scientology had a new thing about combining a male and a female into a single being under Cthulhu or whatever then it would be perfectly fine if they called it Cuchulain. ( I spell checked it and that was close) marriage becoming something other then a property contract really started with the church as well. Loving your wife and respecting your husband being something that god said is kinda important.
the problem is that they arn't trying to debate the religious reasoning for gay marriage they are just trying to get the state to decide what it is and isn't which should be a point of separation of church and state but really isn't in this case. marriage in this case at the least was started by the church coming over first and then the government adopting it. I'm very confused why the movement trys to be so argumentative and confrontational about the whole thing when there are so many roads that wouldn't that would have accomplished the same thing. could you lay off the you Christians it just sounds offensive and doesn't get across anything
this last one is mohdoo
+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:57 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 02:45 DoubleReed wrote:People keep asking like the Christians are being a dick in this case but they arn't trying to change anything. being against something and talking about it is freedom of speech but forcing things on people is just bad. its real funny how you can assume the moral high ground when you are calling everyone else bigots. What? Is calling someone a bigot who is a bigot immoral? Freedom of speech? No one saying you're not allowed to have your views. We're condemning you for your views. That's how freedom of speech works. Nazis can say whatever they want and nonNazis call them out on their bullshit. There's no issue with freedom of speech here. I don't understand how christians are being attacked by this. What changes about their lives at all?? I don't understand how you can use the law to impose your beliefs on others and then play the victim!! Oh no you poor Christians! Not being able to enforce your power on others! Woe is you!! Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them? Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now? Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Marriage is a big deal to everyone, not just Christians. Many religions have very different views of how marriage should go down and each type of person deserves to have it go how they wish. The problem is that Christians are trying to make *other* people conform to Christian standards of marriage. As you said, marriage is important. That is why people are so outraged that other people's views are able to override their own, in a personal matter. Being gay is certainly a natural thing and I hope you weren't trying to imply people make some kinda conscious decision to be gay. People are definitely born that way and you will only find scientific literature supporting that. I'm not even sure what you're getting at with asking if gay people would become extinct...
I was making a hypothetical point and we don't really know that for sure. the fact that it occurs in natural circumstances (animals) makes it not a cultural thing or some weird psychological thing. its just a little something that I was wondering myself that once we get to procreate programming or something it might come up. I'm not sure about it myself though. its more of a choice thing by the parents to decide more about how successful their children are. just because someone was born some way doesn't mean that we can't change how they are born.
Name me a religion thats open to gay marriage. otherwise your argument is pretty void. and I would charge your argument to support mine. I don't want other peoples beliefs on marriage affecting my own.
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On February 09 2012 12:49 bRiz wrote:
Don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, it's a positive answer to a problem being experienced in the GLT community, but I personally prefer to keep marriage between a man and a woman, though I don't think I'd vote for a restriction like that. Just a personal opinion.
then don't marry a man?
ZING
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On February 10 2012 03:43 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:40 Klipsys wrote:On February 10 2012 03:10 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:07 Sawajiri wrote:On February 10 2012 02:40 sermokala wrote: If it had any name other then marriage it wouldn't have been a problem but the gay rights movement keep trying to poke the religious right and constantly try and fight them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? There is such a thing as gay Christians. I highly doubt that the only reason why gay people are seeking the right to marry is because they want to start a verbal mudslinging match with the religious right. Plenty of homosexuals are religious and/or conservative. To them it's not just a matter of picking a fight, but wanting to get married because the word 'marriage' has a meaning and value to them. I'm not even gay but I find it pretty offensive you're trying to put it as if all gay people were only seeking the right to marry to piss off other people. Its not gay people that are causing the problem. the leading protestant organization is now allowing gay pastors to serve. Its all the anti religious people coming out of the woodwork to shit on religious people with easy ammunition. we either object to it and get called bigots or don't and get called hypocrites. Blacks aren't people Women can't vote Gay's can't marry Are you noticing a trend? You're on the wrong side of the fence here pal. Jesus wouldn't be on your side FYI. I know that sounds CRAZY but he wouldn't. It's so funny to see religious people arguing about the sanctity of marriage, when they should know full well how their MESSIAH wouldn't care about two guys splitting the rent. Marriage isn't a religious thing anymore, let go of it It was never a religious thing in the first place.
I always thought that was the purpose of having a ceremony was "Pronouncing your intent to God" or whatever.
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On February 10 2012 03:54 sermokala wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:57 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 02:45 DoubleReed wrote:People keep asking like the Christians are being a dick in this case but they arn't trying to change anything. being against something and talking about it is freedom of speech but forcing things on people is just bad. its real funny how you can assume the moral high ground when you are calling everyone else bigots. What? Is calling someone a bigot who is a bigot immoral? Freedom of speech? No one saying you're not allowed to have your views. We're condemning you for your views. That's how freedom of speech works. Nazis can say whatever they want and nonNazis call them out on their bullshit. There's no issue with freedom of speech here. I don't understand how christians are being attacked by this. What changes about their lives at all?? I don't understand how you can use the law to impose your beliefs on others and then play the victim!! Oh no you poor Christians! Not being able to enforce your power on others! Woe is you!! Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them? Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now? Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Marriage is a big deal to everyone, not just Christians. Many religions have very different views of how marriage should go down and each type of person deserves to have it go how they wish. The problem is that Christians are trying to make *other* people conform to Christian standards of marriage. As you said, marriage is important. That is why people are so outraged that other people's views are able to override their own, in a personal matter. Being gay is certainly a natural thing and I hope you weren't trying to imply people make some kinda conscious decision to be gay. People are definitely born that way and you will only find scientific literature supporting that. I'm not even sure what you're getting at with asking if gay people would become extinct... I was making a hypothetical point and we don't really know that for sure. the fact that it occurs in natural circumstances (animals) makes it not a cultural thing or some weird psychological thing. its just a little something that I was wondering myself that once we get to procreate programming or something it might come up. I'm not sure about it myself though. its more of a choice thing by the parents to decide more about how successful their children are. just because someone was born some way doesn't mean that we can't change how they are born. Name me a religion thats open to gay marriage. otherwise your argument is pretty void. and I would charge your argument to support mine. I don't want other peoples beliefs on marriage affecting my own.
There are plenty of churches in the united states that consider themselves Christian and perform homosexual marriages. There are also ones that do not. Its really arrogant to say that one is more correct than the other, since Christian religions as a whole have segregated themselves a lot. Christians, Jews, Catholics, Mormons, etc. And even within those, as I pointed out, some do homosexual marriages and some don't.
What if there was a movement by a church that considered its self Christian to disallow heterosexual marriages? I know it sounds silly, but from what I have seen, since we can't possibly say one Christian is more "right" than the other, it becomes a simple matter of population: How many people believe this should be? If there was a huge movement against heterosexual marriage, we'd see stuff like Prop 8 against heterosexual marriages. But I don't think that would be right either, since that would be people trying to make other Christians be the type of Christian that they do not wish to be.
Do you think that Christian identified churches you disagree with should not be considered Christian? How can we possibly decide which one is right and which is wrong? If we were to say it is the one that follows the bible most closely, it would be one where women hardly have any rights at all, which I don't think you'd find appealing. So if it is not a matter of which follows the bible most closely, how can we determine which specific breed of Christian is the most noble? How do we know which should be the one we force everyone to comply with? Why not, instead, skip all of that determination and just let them deal with their own issues? Allowing gay marriages to happen will not force people against gay marriage to partake in gay marriages. But disallowing it across the board forces homosexuals to not participate in marriage, by the order of other people. It is interference in their personal lives, justified by the correctness of a specific breed of Christianity. But how can we verify it is the best?
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On February 10 2012 03:23 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them?
Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now?
Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Actually I wasn't comparing you to nazis I was just explaining freedom of speech. I didn't mean for you take to it that way. I'm acting like a complete dick? I'm not advocating against you believing what you believe. I'm advocating against you imposing your beliefs on others. You don't think gays should call it marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex. Bam. That's a great solution for you. But no. Thats not good enough. You have tell people how to live their lives. And when they fight back you have the gall to play the victim??? What a fucking joke. Okay first when you quote someone you can just click on the quote button and it has their name and the whole post on there. it makes it a lot better and take less time. Being against gay marriage isn't imposing our beliefs on other people. Stop reading propaganda on the issue all the time and think about it for yourself. if you want a shout fest on things your in the wrong place. At the very least if you want to debate someone start by being respectful and address all their points. its a real shame when the side that has a clear shared ideology is the one that thinks for themself and doesn't use pointless stawman arguments that they saw on some random site.
Dude, that is EXACTLY what it is, you're advocating denying one group the right which is available to another based, not on any good secular reason, but on your beliefs. Which is also why your argument will fail, in the US at least, because it fails the Lemon Test, its why Prop 8 was ultimately doomed from the start.
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On February 10 2012 03:36 TS-Rupbar wrote:
I know several religious homosexuals. I seriously don't understand why they shouldn't be able to marry if all that's required to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus is God's son.
I had a discussion in my church about this not to far back. the thing is that you have to believe that he was the son of god that he died for your sins and that you want to folow in Christs path (thus Christ ianity).
doublereeds post
+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:37 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:23 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:15 DoubleReed wrote:Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them?
Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now?
Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Actually I wasn't comparing you to nazis I was just explaining freedom of speech. I didn't mean for you take to it that way. I'm acting like a complete dick? I'm not advocating against you believing what you believe. I'm advocating against you imposing your beliefs on others. You don't think gays should call it marriage then don't get married to someone of the same sex. Bam. That's a great solution for you. But no. Thats not good enough. You have tell people how to live their lives. And when they fight back you have the gall to play the victim??? What a fucking joke. Okay first when you quote someone you can just click on the quote button and it has their name and the whole post on there. it makes it a lot better and take less time. Being against gay marriage isn't imposing our beliefs on other people. Stop reading propaganda on the issue all the time and think about it for yourself. if you want a shout fest on things your in the wrong place. At the very least if you want to debate someone start by being respectful and address all their points. its a real shame when the side that has a clear shared ideology is the one that thinks for themself and doesn't use pointless stawman arguments that they saw on some random site. Explain please. You don't think gays should be married. You want to enact laws saying gays (who are other people) can't be married, regardless whether or not they disagree with you. That's what imposing your beliefs on others is.
thanks for singling out a single sentence. someone else posted on it but yours is better so I'll respond to it. I think its quite funny that you took off on one of my sentences and then posted a whole bunch of propaganda when I ask to stop folowing it.
Now just like in iowa the whole thing is a state vote thing right? Iowa voted to ban gay marriage and it failed. The courts used it as an excuse to legalize gay marriage in the state. (these judges lost their jobs for it but oh well) I would see it as a public conversation about the issue and which way that the people decide on it. If you want more I'm going to have to ask what you mean by enacting laws saying they can't be "married".
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Guys, Sermokala isnt imposing their beliefs on anyone, theyre just telling people what they can or cannot do based on their beliefs. Stop listening to the propeganda!
The fact of the matter is, like the suffrage movement, like the civil rights movement, like any movement where a group in society was witheld rights due to some biological trait, we as a society, need to realize our follies in the past, and move forward in an effort to make everyone feel equal and appreciated.
Gay marriage hurts nobody. The argument that only Christians understand the true value and sanctity of marriage is completely ludicrous. In fact, christians have the highest divorce rates because they create such a false value for it, that people enter it unprepared. Why dont you spend all your time and resources worrying about fixing your own problems, and leave people that love each other alone.
I cant believe this is actually still an issue in American politics. Theres so much shit going on, and this still gets air time. Sad.
Good job people of Washington though!
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On February 10 2012 04:07 Focuspants wrote:
Guys, Sermokala isnt imposing their beliefs on anyone, theyre just telling people what they can or cannot do based on their beliefs. Stop listening to the propeganda!
The fact of the matter is, like the suffrage movement, like the civil rights movement, like any movement where a group in society was witheld rights due to some biological trait, we as a society, need to realize our follies in the past, and move forward in an effort to make everyone feel equal and appreciated.
Gay marriage hurts nobody. The argument that only Christians understand the true value and sanctity of marriage is completely ludicrous. In fact, christians have the highest divorce rates because they create such a false value for it, that people enter it unprepared. Why dont you spend all your time and resources worrying about fixing your own problems, and leave people that love each other alone.
I cant believe this is actually still an issue in American politics. Theres so much shit going on, and this still gets air time. Sad.
Good job people of Washington though!
so what your saying is that there is some biological difference to gay people and by definition normal people? Thats a pretty hilarious way to start your argument. it amazes me how many people treat team liquid general like a cnn comment section.
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On February 10 2012 03:54 sermokala wrote:This is darkong's + Show Spoiler +On February 10 2012 03:18 Darkong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 02:57 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 02:45 DoubleReed wrote:People keep asking like the Christians are being a dick in this case but they arn't trying to change anything. being against something and talking about it is freedom of speech but forcing things on people is just bad. its real funny how you can assume the moral high ground when you are calling everyone else bigots. What? Is calling someone a bigot who is a bigot immoral? Freedom of speech? No one saying you're not allowed to have your views. We're condemning you for your views. That's how freedom of speech works. Nazis can say whatever they want and nonNazis call them out on their bullshit. There's no issue with freedom of speech here. I don't understand how christians are being attacked by this. What changes about their lives at all?? I don't understand how you can use the law to impose your beliefs on others and then play the victim!! Oh no you poor Christians! Not being able to enforce your power on others! Woe is you!! Look at this. now your calling Christians the same as nazis and bigots. Do you think that this might make them a little unhappy and treat you a little worse then if you where respectful of them? Look marriage is a big deal to us. You act like a complete dick to things that are important to us and you wonder why we feel that we are being attacked? are you anyway aware of how you sound right now? Let me try and help you understand it in a different way. What if when people are able to design their offspring that we find out that being gay is a genetic thing? Do you think that gay people will become extinct? Why is marriage a big deal to you christians when it actually has little if anything to do with christianity? Marriage is sanctioned by the state not the church, the church involvement is purely ceremonial. Marriage pre-dates christanity by many thousands of years and has existed in one name or another in almost every culture, its a bit late in the day to try and lay sole claim to it now. Just because someone was created by someone else doesn't mean that someone else can't make it significant to them. during the reformation and middle ages it became a much bigger deal. It doesn't take that much to understand this point in a modern age but I'm pretty sure thats where it started. there isn't really anything else that cares about marriage other then the church. everything that the state has done with it was mearly a cooperation with it and to help out middle class families and other economic things. Obama wants civil unions because he doesn't want to fight the religious right over it for one and its pretty funny that in this case I support him and you are against him. Its not really a sole claim thing. even if the Scientology had a new thing about combining a male and a female into a single being under Cthulhu or whatever then it would be perfectly fine if they called it Cuchulain. ( I spell checked it and that was close) marriage becoming something other then a property contract really started with the church as well. Loving your wife and respecting your husband being something that god said is kinda important. the problem is that they arn't trying to debate the religious reasoning for gay marriage they are just trying to get the state to decide what it is and isn't which should be a point of separation of church and state but really isn't in this case. marriage in this case at the least was started by the church coming over first and then the government adopting it. I'm very confused why the movement trys to be so argumentative and confrontational about the whole thing when there are so many roads that wouldn't that would have accomplished the same thing. could you lay off the you Christians it just sounds offensive and doesn't get across anything
You realise that what you say at the beginning there torpedo's your whole argument right?
You say that just because something was created by someone else doesn't mean it can't become meaningful, and that's exactly true, so who are you to deny it to the LGBT community for whom it will certainly be a meaningful thing? Basically you're saying that religion should be allowed to hijack it and withhold it from others on a whim, again, this is wrong both in the sense that marriage is sanctioned by the state (a point I already raised but which your second paragraph shows you have either missed or ignored) and not by the church and ethically from the point of view that you are denying equal rights to another group.
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Well done Washington. Thankfully, as society progresses, in a few decades people will look at the anti-gay marriage crowd with the same disdain we now use to look at the people who protested interracial marriage.
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On February 10 2012 04:12 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 04:07 Focuspants wrote:
Guys, Sermokala isnt imposing their beliefs on anyone, theyre just telling people what they can or cannot do based on their beliefs. Stop listening to the propeganda!
The fact of the matter is, like the suffrage movement, like the civil rights movement, like any movement where a group in society was witheld rights due to some biological trait, we as a society, need to realize our follies in the past, and move forward in an effort to make everyone feel equal and appreciated.
Gay marriage hurts nobody. The argument that only Christians understand the true value and sanctity of marriage is completely ludicrous. In fact, christians have the highest divorce rates because they create such a false value for it, that people enter it unprepared. Why dont you spend all your time and resources worrying about fixing your own problems, and leave people that love each other alone.
I cant believe this is actually still an issue in American politics. Theres so much shit going on, and this still gets air time. Sad.
Good job people of Washington though! so what your saying is that there is some biological difference to gay people and by definition normal people? Thats a pretty hilarious way to start your argument. it amazes me how many people treat team liquid general like a cnn comment section.
Umm... yes, they are biologically different. Not in their gender, like with women, not in their skin colour like with blacks, but with their sexual preference. You actually believe that being gay is a choice?
And what do you mean "normal people". Everyone is "normal" in the sense that they are born human, and are biologically predisposed to be what they are. Normal, does not mean "not gay" to most people. But apparently it does to you.
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On February 10 2012 03:17 Greater Spire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 03:10 sermokala wrote:On February 10 2012 03:07 Sawajiri wrote:On February 10 2012 02:40 sermokala wrote: If it had any name other then marriage it wouldn't have been a problem but the gay rights movement keep trying to poke the religious right and constantly try and fight them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? There is such a thing as gay Christians. I highly doubt that the only reason why gay people are seeking the right to marry is because they want to start a verbal mudslinging match with the religious right. Plenty of homosexuals are religious and/or conservative. To them it's not just a matter of picking a fight, but wanting to get married because the word 'marriage' has a meaning and value to them. I'm not even gay but I find it pretty offensive you're trying to put it as if all gay people were only seeking the right to marry to piss off other people. Its not gay people that are causing the problem. the leading protestant organization is now allowing gay pastors to serve. Its all the anti religious people coming out of the woodwork to shit on religious people with easy ammunition. we either object to it and get called bigots or don't and get called hypocrites. Then leave the leading Protestant organisation. Nobody is forcing you to be a part of it. The fact that there are Church services every Sunday that I disagree with does not mean I am forced to attend. I can "shit on religious people" even without gay marriage - there are many things religious people can be reasonably attacked on - the fact that they are against abortion, the fact that they are against euthanasia, the fact that they are against evolution, the fact that they are against contraception, etc. And furthermore - why are you using words like shit when you are supposedly a Christian? Isn't that rather unChristian?
Are you kidding me? You can't just lump all Christians into one monolithic mass, much less all religious people. Within Christianity there are many different sects, and within those sects many different churches, and within those churches many different people. And even Christians of the same denomination worshiping at the same church aren't required to believe the same thing. I know pro-choice, anti-capital punishment, liberal Christians, and pro-life, pro-capital punishment, conservative atheists. You're resorting to stereotyping and implying that all Christians must conform to your understanding of Christianity or else be classified (by your definition) as non Christian. Your hypocrisy is seemingly only matched by your ignorance and arrogance.
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On February 10 2012 04:12 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 04:07 Focuspants wrote:
Guys, Sermokala isnt imposing their beliefs on anyone, theyre just telling people what they can or cannot do based on their beliefs. Stop listening to the propeganda!
The fact of the matter is, like the suffrage movement, like the civil rights movement, like any movement where a group in society was witheld rights due to some biological trait, we as a society, need to realize our follies in the past, and move forward in an effort to make everyone feel equal and appreciated.
Gay marriage hurts nobody. The argument that only Christians understand the true value and sanctity of marriage is completely ludicrous. In fact, christians have the highest divorce rates because they create such a false value for it, that people enter it unprepared. Why dont you spend all your time and resources worrying about fixing your own problems, and leave people that love each other alone.
I cant believe this is actually still an issue in American politics. Theres so much shit going on, and this still gets air time. Sad.
Good job people of Washington though! so what your saying is that there is some biological difference to gay people and by definition normal people? Thats a pretty hilarious way to start your argument. it amazes me how many people treat team liquid general like a cnn comment section.
Are you suggesting that there isn't a biological explanation for attraction to the same sex? I get hard when I see naked girls, and there is a biological reason for this. Are you implying that a man who gets similar arousal from another man is...lying? Pretending? I don't understand your logic sir... then again, you are clutching that bible rather tightly....
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IMO fundamentalists should be more concerned about attack adulterers (cough newt cough).
It's actually against one of the ten commandments, where as the "evil" of homosexuality is based off a few very ambiguous quotes.
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A little step closer to a world of freedom.
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EPT
