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The Green Nuke - LFTR - Page 4

Forum Index > General Forum
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Fiend13
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany140 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-27 10:10:19
January 27 2012 10:10 GMT
#61
Thanks for this really nice thread. If only all of them could be like that.
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
January 27 2012 23:38 GMT
#62
On January 27 2012 19:10 Fiend13 wrote:
Thanks for this really nice thread. If only all of them could be like that.


Well thank YOU for the nice compliment!
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
nekoconeco
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia359 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 00:00:55
January 27 2012 23:57 GMT
#63
Yeah thanks for this thread I recently watched a Google Tech Talk on this but the Thorium Remix doco was great to see. At first I was skeptical but it seems legitimate (at least with my limited understanding of the science).



I guess the main issue is that someone has to be the first to pioneer the full-scale reactor. I am annoyed that Australia hasn't done more in the area (since according to some sources we have the largest Thorium reserves in the world). Either way once China has a successful reactor underway the argument for it will be much stronger. Especially if the environmental advantages can be quantitatively illustrated.
My Photoshop stream (requests welcome) --> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304143
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
January 28 2012 01:18 GMT
#64
On January 25 2012 10:27 Perdac Curall wrote:
4) LFTRs do not produce the "spent fuel" problem of ordinary solid fuel reactors like PWRs. Because the fuel is a liquid it can be fully burnt up in the reactor, so storage of spent fuel is not necessary.

Something seems fishy with the neutron economy here. Normal nuclear fuel has to be replaced because some fission products are neutron absorbers and when more neutrons are absorbed than produced you lose criticality. Thorium is already a neutron down versus U-235. It has to undergo a neutron capture then decay to U-233 before it is fissile. (similar to the U-238 -> Pu-239 path)

Furthermore the projected transuranic waste of a 40MW "mini" reactor produced over ten years is anticipated to be only a few millionths of a gram. This is teeny tiny amounts of pollution.

That seem a very odd way to say that the reactor won't make any plutonium. There are still plenty of nasty products below 92.

9) unlike LMFBRs it does not use fast neutrons, it uses thermal neutrons, which makes fission much easier to achieve

It needs thermal neutrons because thermal neutrons make fission easier to achieve, not because thermal neutrons are easier to produce. Fission produces fast neutrons, which turn into thermal neutrons as they slow down through collisions with a moderator.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
January 28 2012 01:27 GMT
#65
On January 26 2012 03:06 Perdac Curall wrote:
The amount of energy in matter-antimatter reactions is 1000 times as energy dense as fusion, so it is not implausible that we can achieve a net energy gain there in the future

It is implausible that energy wouldn't be conserved.
It takes more energy to produce antimatter then you get from its annihilation. At best you would break even, but that'd need a world without thermodynamics.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
January 28 2012 04:39 GMT
#66
On January 28 2012 10:18 gyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 10:27 Perdac Curall wrote:
4) LFTRs do not produce the "spent fuel" problem of ordinary solid fuel reactors like PWRs. Because the fuel is a liquid it can be fully burnt up in the reactor, so storage of spent fuel is not necessary.

Something seems fishy with the neutron economy here. Normal nuclear fuel has to be replaced because some fission products are neutron absorbers and when more neutrons are absorbed than produced you lose criticality. Thorium is already a neutron down versus U-235. It has to undergo a neutron capture then decay to U-233 before it is fissile. (similar to the U-238 -> Pu-239 path)

Show nested quote +
Furthermore the projected transuranic waste of a 40MW "mini" reactor produced over ten years is anticipated to be only a few millionths of a gram. This is teeny tiny amounts of pollution.

That seem a very odd way to say that the reactor won't make any plutonium. There are still plenty of nasty products below 92.

Show nested quote +
9) unlike LMFBRs it does not use fast neutrons, it uses thermal neutrons, which makes fission much easier to achieve

It needs thermal neutrons because thermal neutrons make fission easier to achieve, not because thermal neutrons are easier to produce. Fission produces fast neutrons, which turn into thermal neutrons as they slow down through collisions with a moderator.


The fission of Uranium-233 produces on average 2.5 neutrons per fission, so it is above the required threshold of 2. Furthermore the worst neutron absorber, Xe-135, which is such a nuisance is solid fuel reactors, is not a problem at all in a LFTR, since it is a gas and just bubbles out of the liquid fuel.

Here is a great talk by Kirk Sorensen on so-called "nuclear waste," most of which is just as valuable as the electricity produced.



Yes thermal neutrons make fission easier to achieve, that is what was said in the post you quoted. The neutron cross-sections involved with thermal neutrons are so much bigger than with fast neutrons.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
gyth
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
657 Posts
January 28 2012 06:30 GMT
#67
[image loading]
On the bright side, it won't need control rods because it is barely delayed critical in the best case.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 07:06:44
January 28 2012 07:04 GMT
#68
You are correct there are no control rods anticipated in the LFTR. Last I heard they were anticipating circulating graphite spheres in with the liquid fuel as a neutron moderator. Also that's a great graphic thanks alot I had not seen it before.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
January 28 2012 07:08 GMT
#69
I will leave this thread with a wealth of knowledge on the subject, great post, and great replys OP, really informative and has changed my opinion of Nuclear power in general, I would love to see energy technology adopt LFTR - it seems much more stable, abundant, efficient and cleaner.
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
January 28 2012 07:21 GMT
#70
I have already notified the gas companies and TL will be taken down by SOPA for supporting clean energy in 1 thread.
..
It could happen.
Die tomorrow - Live today
bobsire
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada296 Posts
January 28 2012 07:37 GMT
#71
great read. Interesting how China is already using it.
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
January 28 2012 07:41 GMT
#72
On January 28 2012 16:08 v3chr0 wrote:
I will leave this thread with a wealth of knowledge on the subject, great post, and great replys OP, really informative and has changed my opinion of Nuclear power in general, I would love to see energy technology adopt LFTR - it seems much more stable, abundant, efficient and cleaner.


Comments like that make it all worthwhile. LFTR certainly caused me to re-examine my opinion on nuclear fission as well.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
ChriS-X
Profile Joined June 2011
Malaysia1374 Posts
January 28 2012 08:17 GMT
#73
where does the flouride salt come from?
Quantum314
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England217 Posts
January 28 2012 08:22 GMT
#74
On January 26 2012 03:06 Perdac Curall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 01:31 Soleron wrote:
On January 25 2012 10:51 Perdac Curall wrote:
matter-antimatter annihilation sometime after that.


How would that even work? Unless you have a supply of antimatter (which we do not), it will take more energy to create the fuel than we get out of it.

It's useful for interstellar propulsion because it has the lowest mass per unit energy output of any fuel, but not as an energy source.


There was a meeting back in 2004 on this very subject detailing the need for a dedicated antiproton facility in the US, but it was ignored by the Bush administration. The amount of energy in matter-antimatter reactions is 1000 times as energy dense as fusion, so it is not implausible that we can achieve a net energy gain there in the future (50-75 years from now when commercial fusion reactors are (hopefully) a reality.)

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0410/0410511v1.pdf


Yes, the 1000 times as energy dense is what lends it to being such an attractive idea for space travel as it saves so much weight. But it does not suggest that we could achieve a net energy gain.
Fact is, because we do not have an antimatter mine anywhere we would have to make it ourselves. And due to the nature of matter-antimatter annihilation the best case scenario is that we get the same amount of energy out as we put in to make it, which isn't such an attractive property for a fuel.
"Physicists are atoms way of thinking about atoms"
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
January 28 2012 08:51 GMT
#75
On January 28 2012 17:17 ChriS-X wrote:
where does the flouride salt come from?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLiBe

It is a commercially manufactured salt combination of Beryllium Fluoride and Lithium Fluoride. Flibe Energy, which is the only US company I know of pursuing LFTR, is named after it.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
Perdac Curall
Profile Joined June 2011
242 Posts
January 28 2012 08:51 GMT
#76
On January 28 2012 17:22 QuAnTuM314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 03:06 Perdac Curall wrote:
On January 26 2012 01:31 Soleron wrote:
On January 25 2012 10:51 Perdac Curall wrote:
matter-antimatter annihilation sometime after that.


How would that even work? Unless you have a supply of antimatter (which we do not), it will take more energy to create the fuel than we get out of it.

It's useful for interstellar propulsion because it has the lowest mass per unit energy output of any fuel, but not as an energy source.


There was a meeting back in 2004 on this very subject detailing the need for a dedicated antiproton facility in the US, but it was ignored by the Bush administration. The amount of energy in matter-antimatter reactions is 1000 times as energy dense as fusion, so it is not implausible that we can achieve a net energy gain there in the future (50-75 years from now when commercial fusion reactors are (hopefully) a reality.)

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0410/0410511v1.pdf


Yes, the 1000 times as energy dense is what lends it to being such an attractive idea for space travel as it saves so much weight. But it does not suggest that we could achieve a net energy gain.
Fact is, because we do not have an antimatter mine anywhere we would have to make it ourselves. And due to the nature of matter-antimatter annihilation the best case scenario is that we get the same amount of energy out as we put in to make it, which isn't such an attractive property for a fuel.


You may be right, but in 50-75 years I hope mankind can prove you wrong.
If a Black Death could spread throughout the world once in every generation, survivors could procreate freely without making the world too full. The state of affairs might be unpleasant, but what of it? -Sith Lord Bertrand Russell
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2907 Posts
January 28 2012 10:46 GMT
#77
After reading up on this it seems that the fuel would be absolutely vile. As in if you get a leak people will die because you need heavy shielding to work with it and it fries electronics so remote manipulation gets harder.

Seems like a decent idea but remember that toxic liquid fuels almost always get replaced with solid fuels because handling and maintnance never work out well. Simply put fluids leak and toxic leaks are bad.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
white_horse
Profile Joined July 2010
1019 Posts
January 28 2012 11:00 GMT
#78
Cool read, thanks.

It does look like another too good to be true story but if it is really a viable method for nuclear energy, why the hell isn't the US government actively pursing the technology? Because mastering this would basically solve our entire energy problem. That the US government would pass this over and let china go after it alone would mean that we really have total dumbasses heading this country.
Translator
3DGlaDOS
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany607 Posts
January 28 2012 11:58 GMT
#79
On January 28 2012 20:00 white_horse wrote:
Cool read, thanks.

It does look like another too good to be true story but if it is really a viable method for nuclear energy, why the hell isn't the US government actively pursing the technology? Because mastering this would basically solve our entire energy problem. That the US government would pass this over and let china go after it alone would mean that we really have total dumbasses heading this country.

German government then would be even more stupid since we waste a lot of money on solar energy subsidies. But people here freak out when they hear "nuclear power".
Hello Sir, do you have a minute for atheism?
enemy2010
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany1972 Posts
January 28 2012 12:26 GMT
#80
Two words: renewable energies.

I study energy ecomonics, and I personally thing this is the only way.
1on1 auf azze no he no flash no awp only holztor. | Ja, da meint der ich hätt' abgeschmatzt, aber dat is Quatsch, verstehste?
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