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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING: The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32083 Posts
Dude swipes away the tazer after repeated warnings, and is only shot after he tries to smash a cop with the crowbar. The cop keeps shooting until the guy is down. text book for how you're supposed to use lethal force: as a last resort, and when you use it, you use it to end the thing, not wound him. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:31 tapk69 wrote: Europeans and Canadians think this is wrong , Americans say this is the right thing.. Well , maybe we are ones who are wrong , in the heat of the moment things happens too fast . I also know that America had lots of cops killed on duty unlike here in Europe. Gogo turn this thread into a shit throwing nationality war...not. Come on, the OP was very detailed with his assessment of the situation and tried his best to dissuade people from throwing out baseless accusations. I think there are a lot of things that went into his decision to unload his weapon that could not be discerned from the video, though it's regrettable that he had to use lethal force. If the poster a few above was correct, warning shots are not SOP, but from my standpoint I believe he might have tried discharging his weapon in the air before committing to kill. Also, where was the attempt to taser the suspect in the video (time code) | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote: excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Why would that be the case? Do you really think it's reasonable to kill someone because he attacks a police officer with a crow bar? I'm pretty sure he doesn't get the chair for that so what gives a police officer the right to ensure his death? The job of the police is to aprehend people so that they can be tried in court. Not to execute them on the spot. This was just poor training. If the local police were properly trained in how to disable someone without killing them this would not happen. A maximum of 2 bullets to legs or shoulder is enough to stop anyone from moving towards you. To hit someone in any of those areas at that range when they are moving slowly towards you is about the easiest target you'll get. If he had missed and hit a vital organ that would be unfortunate but defendable. It is however not ok to act as an executioner. If there was a more serious threat to the officers life then obviously it would have been ok. But obviously that wasn't the case as we could see on the video. Bottom line. You don't empty a clip into someone if you can avoid it. If that was ok then we could remove court trial and just let police officers start executing people based on their initial judgement. | ||
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XThunderyX
United States367 Posts
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:31 Hypertension wrote: I don't think the angry posters in this thread would have been happier watching a dog maul the suspect. | ||
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wunsun
Canada622 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:33 Belial88 wrote: ^ Second string of shots? Police officers are taught to unload their entire clip as one shot, as they should be. Likely, the officer isn't involved in a ton of shootings either, but been trained on it. Training just kicks in, and he doesn't know if there are 10 of his buddies around the corner, as soon as the situation is hostile you have to take down the target in question to secure yourself. Releasing the dog would've taken too long. His crowbar would've connected by the time the dog had done anything. It was a situation where the officers needed to defend themselves from imminent deadly force. Imagine if you were in that situation, where a strange, large man with a huge crowbar, who is acting extremely agitated in an area known for drugs and gang violence, is coming at you. I'm glad that TV is why you are forming your opinion. Before I discuss this with you, I just want to say that I do agree with the officer shooting him. What I am saying is that there was a second string of shots. If the officier is trained to unload an entire clip, then he should have unloaded the entire clip. However he did pause, which means that his thinking overrode his training. Furthermore, he seems like he was a K9 officier, so shouldn't some of his training involves the use of his dog. After the first string of shots, he did pause. At this point, he could have released the dog. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.westernstageprops.com/miva/graphics/00000001/pm56lr.jpg) Crowbar. ![[image loading]](http://www.totalrentalofmolalla.com/prod_images/full/halfinto5inconduitbender.jpg) 1/2 conduit bender. (Which is what I'm pretty sure he's using in the video.) | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:38 karpo wrote: If the taser guy would have backed of 3-5 yards instead of walking on behind the suspect fumbling for something and not even looking the police with the gun wouldn't have had to shoot. Does anyone have a response to this? I don't really see anything wrong with the police that shot but what lead to that situation is just kinda amateurish. You really see how suprised the taser cop is when the guy turns around. Why let down your guard, look down, and move closer to a suspect when he's armed with a "melee" weapon? | ||
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UNeeK
United States237 Posts
Sure, he should have shot twice, but i bet half of you guys have never been in a fight or flight scenario to really know what it feels like. I'm a military cop, i've been deployed, i've seen combat, it's easier said than done, trust me. When it's time to shoot you're adrenaline is going crazy and you tunnel vision very very easily. The officer had the right to shoot, and i dont really see this as excessive force, to be honest. | ||
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justsayinbro
307 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:36 Swaddled wrote: Police will never purposefully aim for the legs. By doing so they increase the chance of missing and the bullet ricocheting or the suspect having enough time to harm the police. Police don't have the luxury of making highly skilled shots like you see in the movies. To say that this is excessive force is disturbing. The taser was not effective and the criminal attempted to hurt the police man who did not have his weapon drawn. Pretty simple to see where that police man could have been easily crippled by one hit with that pipe bender. a man with a crowbar is not very threatening from a distance. they could have just set a surround from distance until they had proper resources to take him down without getting anyone killed ie rubber bullets and such. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
It looked more like either the taser did not hit his body ( stuck in thick clothing ) or he peppersprayed him at first. I do not believe that he was tasered though. The taser should have hit and worked and all of this would have been unneccesary. But the officer cannot be held accountable because the situation escalated and he had to act in self defence. People need to learn how to use tasers better to prevent these situations. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote: excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. ^^ this pretty much, drawing of the firearm is usually only allowed when an officer believes his life or the life of another is threatened, to which lethal force is allowed, at which point there is very little reason (once you actually pull the trigger) outside of stray shots to not put a volley into a suspect 5 shots to the full clip to the center of mass a suspect to ensure you put them down. Coming at an officer with a crowbar although not a gun or say a sword does constitute as reason in my book, you can easily kill a person with a crowbar with the first swing. Also is that a crowbar? He does to my eye start up a swing when he is shot but ionno wtf he is carrying, that's like 5 foot long with one hell of a top to it. On January 25 2012 05:42 PanN wrote: Crowbar. 1/2 conduit bender. (Which is what I'm pretty sure he's using in the video.) knew something looked off, still has a metal end, much longer then a crowbar. | ||
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hipsterHobbit
United States218 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote: excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. maybe if he had a gun shoot to kill. that warranted a knee cap shot at most. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:40 StarBrift wrote: Why would that be the case? Do you really think it's reasonable to kill someone because he attacks a police officer with a crow bar? I'm pretty sure he doesn't get the chair for that so what gives a police officer the right to ensure his death? The job of the police is to aprehend people so that they can be tried in court. Not to execute them on the spot. This was just poor training. If the local police were properly trained in how to disable someone without killing them this would not happen. A maximum of 2 bullets to legs or shoulder is enough to stop anyone from moving towards you. To hit someone in any of those areas at that range when they are moving slowly towards you is about the easiest target you'll get. If he had missed and hit a vital organ that would be unfortunate but defendable. It is however not ok to act as an executioner. If there was a more serious threat to the officers life then obviously it would have been ok. But obviously that wasn't the case as we could see on the video. Bottom line. You don't empty a clip into someone if you can avoid it. If that was ok then we could remove court trial and just let police officers start executing people based on their initial judgement. Forgot this is Call of Duty where everyone has pin-point accuracy and can react within a split second. Also forgot that you should try to be careful with someone who is about to smash another police officer in the head with a giant metal bar. Especially after you have given them multiple warnings. | ||
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Aristodemus
England1997 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:35 FuzzyJAM wrote: It has nothing to do with "deserving to die". He was a risk to the lives of other people while committing a crime. When that happens, and lethal force is the only way to ensure the safety of others, lethal force is reasonable. However, I still don't see how people think the second set of shots were necessary. Oh well. He didnt look that threatening to me, he calmly walked out and the police approached him to a distance where his weapon could be used. He never swung it either, just pulled it back. In law you are responsible for what you do, not what you might do. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14040 Posts
Its really a common sense issue. they tried to tazz him and use mace and neither worked. that was a pretty nasty looking crowbar and the cops where defending themselves and keeping the peace. Thats all that happened. | ||
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Overpowered
Czech Republic764 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:39 Hawk wrote: Least controversial video ever. Dude swipes away the tazer after repeated warnings, and is only shot after he tries to smash a cop with the crowbar. The cop keeps shooting until the guy is down. text book for how you're supposed to use lethal force: as a last resort, and when you use it, you use it to end the thing, not wound him. I can't really agree. If he was such a threat why are you standing so close to him? To me it just seems like an extreme response to avoid hard work. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On January 25 2012 05:42 karpo wrote: Does anyone have a response to this? I don't really see anything wrong with the police that shot but what lead to that situation is just kinda amateurish. You really see how suprised the taser cop is when the guy turns around. Why let down your guard, look down, and move closer to a suspect when he's armed with a "melee" weapon? What's your point? Sure, maybe the other cop shouldnt have taken his guard down a bit, but he did, and the dude looked like he was going to clobber him. Should the other cop have just let him do that? | ||
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