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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. |
On January 25 2012 06:28 Calm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. Did you even watch the video? The crowbar was moving towards the cop's head. Too late for backup, taser was tried... You're suggesting the cop lay down his life, get his head split open, and then the maniac be allowed to run around longer? That doesn't pose a threat to the public?
The weapon wasn't even close to the tazing cop's head. It was still by the man's shoulder - he hadn't even made the swinging motion yet. Not only that, the officer was dumb enough to try to reload his tazer (or something to that effect) while looking down and walking toward the man. Finally, the second five shots (by the officer with the tazer) were into the man's back - pay attention and you can see the man turn around after getting shot the first five times and then go down behind the car after the second five. There was no reason for those second five and there was no reason for the tazing officer to place himself in that position. The offcers could have easily tackled the man and taken the weapon from him, especially since there's a good chance that the man was about to fall over dead anyway after five shots to his chest.
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I get really scared when I read some of your statements. How do you think the rest of the worlds police forces handles potentially dangerous situations? Do you honestly believe shooting that guy ten fucking times to DEATH was the only proper solution to that situation?
And just a side thought, what the FUCK was the use of the dog? Send the beast on that metal swinging fuck wad, or wrestle that ass to the ground, or pepper spray the shit out of him, or use the 5 TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS to 1 STREET PUNK advantage and overwhelm that sorry ass. But no, in America, shooting the fucker dead is the proper response apparently, an attitude which you bring with you when you meddle in other nations affairs across the globe. I honestly can't find words for how sick your country has become.
I apologize for generalizing like this, but you guys are fucking insane.
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Clearly the guy thought that the police wouldn't harm him. Look at the way he struts out. Sheer arrogance.
The police have enough to deal with, putting themselves in harms way. Anything to reduce that, all be it excessive, seems entirely reasonable to me. I have no issues with the way that was handled.
What seemed odd to me was, the range and proximity with which the police approached the offender. Too close. Should've let the dog loose.
As an aside, one less scumbag in the world, who was, in all fairness, unlikely to contribute positively to society.
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More people need to read Stratos_spear's post above. I came to last page to write about what he wrote about ,, xcept he did it much more knowledgably and specifically. They TRIED to taze him, and then they dropped him. Tragic ending? yes! Avoidable maybe if there was a little more time to get into position before he left the restaurant? maybe! I don't know enough to second-guess that one.
The cops did NOT use unjustified force though. I'm far from anyone who would reflexibly support police violence but this current mentality of everything cops do is wrong is really unhealthy. The cop who shot was protecting his partner and ensuring that they both get home at the end of the day. Instead of searching youtube for cop violence and so on search for some of the videos of cops getting killed because they tried to ameliorate a threat instead of instantly ending it. A well trained cop will NEVER 'shoot for the legs' because they are trained in the use of lethal force. When it comes to applying lethal force, you avoid for as long as you can but if it becomes neccessary you do not hold back.
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On January 25 2012 06:34 DannyJ wrote:
Why are people freaking out saying the cops were too close? They were trying to tazer and pepper spray the guy. If the dude then decides to try and whack em with a piece of metal, well that's his retarded fault.
tazers effective ranegd is 10 metres or 30 feet
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On January 25 2012 06:35 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:28 Calm wrote:On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. Did you even watch the video? The crowbar was moving towards the cop's head. Too late for backup, taser was tried... You're suggesting the cop lay down his life, get his head split open, and then the maniac be allowed to run around longer? That doesn't pose a threat to the public? The weapon wasn't even close to the tazing cop's head. It was still by the man's shoulder - he hadn't even made the swinging motion yet. Not only that, the officer was dumb enough to try to reload his tazer (or something to that effect) while looking down and walking toward the man. Finally, the second five shots (by the officer with the tazer) were into the man's back - pay attention and you can see the man turn around after getting shot the first five times and then go down behind the car after the second five. There was no reason for those second five and there was no reason for the tazing officer to place himself in that position. The offcers could have easily tackled the man and taken the weapon from him, especially since there's a good chance that the man was about to fall over dead anyway after five shots to his chest.
and you got this all through a youtube video, shot through a water-tainted window, dozens of yards away from the actual scene? ill take your judgement over the cop's any day.
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On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him.
Completely? LOL. So when the guy makes what appears to be an attempted use of a deadly weapon, the copy should curl up in a ball and hope it doesnt hurt? Fuck off you hippie.
They made an attempt to subdue him, and then he made a move towards the cop. COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED.
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whole thing just sucks. it sucks that the dude is dead and it sucks that the cop had to kill somebody. what are you gonna do when you're all jacked up on adrenaline and scared for your life and for your co-worker and potential friend? IDK either. all I know for sure is when you look back on those kinds of things it's blurry and you wish you had the same kinda insight you do afterward. I really don't think that cop killed that guy because he truly just hated him enough to do it. sometimes things just get fucked up in the blink of an eye.
like I said it's a tragedy you guys shouldn't place blame cus everyone in this situation just lost
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On January 25 2012 05:44 Motiva wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:39 Hawk wrote:
Least controversial video ever.
Dude swipes away the tazer after repeated warnings, and is only shot after he tries to smash a cop with the crowbar. The cop keeps shooting until the guy is down.
text book for how you're supposed to use lethal force: as a last resort, and when you use it, you use it to end the thing, not wound him. I can't really agree. If he was such a threat why are you standing so close to him? To me it just seems like an extreme response to avoid hard work.
to avoid hard work? Do you think the cop was thinking, man i have to reach for my pepper spray again? fuck it! BANG
or..
wait.. if i arrest him i'll have to fill out a report? screw that. BAM!
Do you know how long this investigation is going to take for the cop who pulled the trigger? He will most likely be put on admin leave until its over and not be allowed to work.
I honestly can't see how this is 'avoiding hard work'.
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On January 25 2012 06:25 Timurid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:20 KryptoStorm wrote:
*sigh* American police seem to just love shooting people. I don't think I ever want to visit America, if I step out of line i'll be beat or shot to death. Why do people think this is how America is? Not all cops are like this. Just proves how ignorant and arrogant people are. Also, the incident happen in a rough neighborhood.
well they clearly werent french otherwise they would have surrenderd
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On January 25 2012 06:35 azdzaazfaz wrote:
I get really scared when I read some of your statements. How do you think the rest of the worlds police forces handles potentially dangerous situations? Do you honestly believe shooting that guy ten fucking times to DEATH was the only proper solution to that situation?
And just a side thought, what the FUCK was the use of the dog? Send the beast on that metal swinging fuck wad, or wrestle that ass to the ground, or pepper spray the shit out of him, or use the 5 TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS to 1 STREET PUNK advantage and overwhelm that sorry ass. But no, in America, shooting the fucker dead is the proper response apparently, an attitude which you bring with you when you meddle in other nations affairs across the globe. I honestly can't find words for how sick your country has become.
I apologize for generalizing like this, but you guys are fucking insane.
Man, I'm not even American and I'd be put off by that comment. "I'm sorry for generalizing but I'm going to do it all through my post."
Do tell, what country are you from? I'm sure we could all generalize about it as well and/or find examples of police violence. See, what you're overlooking while you generalize is that the thousands of "decent" and "responsible" acts carried out by American police officers on a daily basis are routinely overlooked because they're not reported - ever.
By all means, though, generalize away...
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I think it was a year ago that a similar event happened here in Sweden. A drunk guy charges 1 of 2 officers with a knife, the second officer pulls out her gun and shoots the guy in his foot (accuracy lol) and so he falls down on the ground. I'd says that these two situations are similar in the threat the officer was facing, which is interesting because the officer that shot was critized a LOT for using her gun. She was eventually judged to have used an appropriate amount of violence and was freed of charges in police court.
It just strikes me how different the views are of how the police should behave.. After reading Incontrols post I'm kinda afraid to go to USA :S Polices are supposed to kill with guns rather than harm? wtf is that shit? Using a gun is the last resort and should only be used when absolutely needed.. I feel that the officer in this video was entitled using a gun.. but 10 shots? In Sweden that man would be in prison right now.
Is he seriously gonna get freed from that and carry on being on duty?
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On January 25 2012 06:35 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:28 Sgonzo wrote:On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. ^ this is what all the people who agree with the cops actions are missing fromt heir thought process Eh no... you have watch to many bad cop movies. You don't tackle someone that have a weapon in hand as the first alternative.
^ no but you should do everything within your power to save and preserve life and peace, had they waited for more back up simply zoned the perp so he wasnt a danger to the public they couldve taken down the perp without bloodshed, but instead they jumped the gun approached him and antagonized the situation
THEY ARE CALLED OFFICERS OF THE PEACE FOR A REASON
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He could of shot him in the leg.
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On January 25 2012 06:17 Akta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:56 FaZe wrote:
This is what happens when you have poorly trained police.
Most officers never fire their weapons outside of the range, it looks like this guy just panicked and unloaded an unnecessary number of shots into the assailant.
Points where I feel like they were incompetent :
1) The officer who fired the taser had trouble drawing his weapon, he looked down at his belt for close to 5 seconds while continuing to walk towards the suspect, directly into "crowbar range", when he tried to create distance between himself and the suspect, he clumsily stumbled away.
2) The suspect was possibly stopped by the first, and most definitely stopped by the second shot that the officer with the dog fired. After staggering him, and enough distance had been created to ensure the safety of the second officer, he proceeds to shoot him 8 more times. Admittedly firing the first shot probably caused by an adrenaline dump, but there's no excuse that I can see for being unable to handle this as a person who is supposed to protect the public.
There was absolutely more force used than was needed to subdue the guy with the crowbar, but I think it's each person's opinion to whether or not it was truly "excessive" in the situation.
Was thinking it looked like poorly trained police as well. Someone fit for the job with proper training wouldn't have gotten that close and probably wouldn't have fired more than one shot. Or I guess it depends on if anyone cares about the suspects lives to begin with, perhaps that's what it's mainly about.
Looks like the second round of shots came from the second officer... I could be wrong though, can anyone else take a look at the video and try to tell?
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Whatever happened to tasers? Don't police carry those around for perps without a gun?
Anyways, I don't really understand why the police got so close with the guy in the first place. They could've kept their distance and properly warn him first before closing in. Of course he's going to threaten to strike especially if someone's coming from behind.
I'm not saying it was completely wrong to fatally shoot him, but it could've definitely been handled better.
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On January 25 2012 06:39 Kyles92 wrote:
He could of shot him in the leg.
you could read a thread before you post
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On January 25 2012 06:38 Emnjay808 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:35 Stratos_speAr wrote:On January 25 2012 06:28 Calm wrote:On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. Did you even watch the video? The crowbar was moving towards the cop's head. Too late for backup, taser was tried... You're suggesting the cop lay down his life, get his head split open, and then the maniac be allowed to run around longer? That doesn't pose a threat to the public? The weapon wasn't even close to the tazing cop's head. It was still by the man's shoulder - he hadn't even made the swinging motion yet. Not only that, the officer was dumb enough to try to reload his tazer (or something to that effect) while looking down and walking toward the man. Finally, the second five shots (by the officer with the tazer) were into the man's back - pay attention and you can see the man turn around after getting shot the first five times and then go down behind the car after the second five. There was no reason for those second five and there was no reason for the tazing officer to place himself in that position. The offcers could have easily tackled the man and taken the weapon from him, especially since there's a good chance that the man was about to fall over dead anyway after five shots to his chest. and you got this all through a youtube video, shot through a water-tainted window, dozens of yards away from the actual scene? ill take your judgement over the cop's any day.
Unless you have vision problems it's not that hard to notice. How about you actually come up with some points instead of coming up for a BS response to try to invalidate my statements?
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On January 25 2012 06:39 Sgonzo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:35 nam nam wrote:On January 25 2012 06:28 Sgonzo wrote:On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote:
This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. ^ this is what all the people who agree with the cops actions are missing fromt heir thought process Eh no... you have watch to many bad cop movies. You don't tackle someone that have a weapon in hand as the first alternative. ^ no but you should do everything within your power to save and preserve life and peace, had they waited for more back up simply zoned the perp so he wasnt a danger to the public they couldve taken down the perp without bloodshed, but instead they jumped the gun approached him and antagonized the situation THEY ARE CALLED OFFICERS OF THE PEACE FOR A REASON
Once they attack armed officers, it's the officers' duty to protect their own life.
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On January 25 2012 06:38 ChoRds wrote:
like I said it's a tragedy you guys shouldn't place blame cus everyone in this situation just lost
I still feel society won.
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EPT
