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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING: The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:20 KryptoStorm wrote: *sigh* American police seem to just love shooting people. I don't think I ever want to visit America, if I step out of line i'll be beat or shot to death. If you think taunting and raising a weapon at a cop is just "stepping out of line" nobody wants you to come here. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:21 Emnjay808 wrote: Apparently everyones an expert on being a trained policeman. Its pretty apparent that they warned they guy that they would use deadly force to stop him. And he wasnt listening. Then he starts swinging at the neaby officer. Wtf, else you expect to happen? These things happen in mere seconds, they dont have the luxury to stop and think about the sitation when the suspect starts attacking. He was forced to use deadly force, that is what they were trained to do. Again, the officers were stupid to be that close. The man had a close-ranged weapon and they had guns in their hand. The only reason that man is dead is because they put themselves into the situation to potentially be attacked. Not only that, he fired off probably double the amount of shots that were necessary to subdue the guy. I don't give a fuck if you are in a high adrenaline/dangerous situation - if you are given the legal right to use deadly force on someone, you better get a lot of fucking training on how to do it right. | ||
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sMi.EternaL
United States162 Posts
A little background first. I am a former Marine weapons instructor and am now a private sector weapons instructor. As someone that teaches officers what to do in this situation I can say that this is an absolutely justifiable shoot. In the Law Enforcement/Military world you are taught to shoot to stop the threat. Stop the threat means exactly that. There is no sugar coating a threat engagement, in high intensity situations like this your brain stops and your training takes over. This is called a "Body Alarm Response," your previous highest level of training literally takes over and often times you don't even realize what was happening until after the fact. This officer did exactly what he should have done and fell back on his training and by doing so potentially saved the life of his partner. His initial burst did not drop the suspect, as you can see he's still standing, they have no way of knowing what kind of weapons systems he is carrying on his person other than the object in his hand. You either put the threat down and know you're safe or gamble with your life and the lives of those around you. How horrible would you feel if you were this officer, you shot your initial rounds and then stopped giving the suspect time to pull his pistol from his waistband and kill your partner? It happens, and so we train to make sure that does NOT happen. I personally teach every student I've ever trained that his main priority is to make it home safe. Your wife/kids/husband/partner are expecting you & counting on you. If someone is coming at you/friend/family, you drop them absolutely. You never shoot to kill but you always shoot to stop the threat, in most cases this will kill the individual but that is never our intention. Hindsight and outside perspective is extremely skewed in these types of situations. As far as being able to justify a shooting you have to be able to say to yourself, DAM! DAM is Desire, Ability and Means. This suspect displayed desire, he was well within range/had the capability to end that officers life and he definitely had the means. Food for thought: In most states if a person puts their bare hand into their pocket/paper bag/anything and even IMPLIES that he has a gun, you are well within your rights to shoot that person in self defense. If a person walks into a bank and tries to rob it in this manner he still gets assault with a deadly weapon/armed robbery etc charges. And those cases happen more frequently than you might think. In this case the suspect very obviously had a weapon and displayed an attempt to use it. Training kicked in and that was all she wrote. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Edit: they did attempt to taze him. Thought it was mace for some reason. Nvm. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
And LOL at morons saying to disarm him with hand to hand tactics? Gtfo. I'd love to see you disarm a violent man brandishing a deadly weapon. | ||
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Timurid
Guyana (French)656 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:20 KryptoStorm wrote: *sigh* American police seem to just love shooting people. I don't think I ever want to visit America, if I step out of line i'll be beat or shot to death. Why do people think this is how America is? Not all cops are like this. Just proves how ignorant and arrogant people are. Also, the incident happen in a rough neighborhood. | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:21 Romance_us wrote: As painful as it was to watch that video and see a fellow human being have his life ended, I honestly cannot say that I do not feel better knowing that this guy can now never hurt my loved ones or anybody else. He very easily could've just walked in there with a gun and started shooting people (which quite a few people have done) ^ had he ahd a gun or had harmed some of the innocent bystanders then i would say use lethal force when the cops roll up but this was clearly a troubled individual probly find out later he had mental disability or something and he ahdnt hurt anybody, it wasnt until the police got there and bungled the handling of the situaiton that thigns went south, in canada when guys like this appear first unit on scene doesnt even try to engage usually maybe not even communicate with suspect they just ensure no1 is goign to get hurt while back up usually 4-6 more units so ion avergae 10 police come in order to contain and subdue a perp armed with melee weapons then usually 3 tasers will hit the guy at once followed at almost the same moment 5-7 officers tackling and disarming said perp only time they deviate fromt his is when an =edged weapon is involved in most cases you will get shot for that | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
An officer represents the law and is given the means to enforce the law. It's his duty. People know policemen have guns. People should know that the gun isn't there to decorate their hips. People should know that charging a police officer with a weapon that could kill the police officer gives the officer every right, even the duty, to kill that person. The only reason 5 rounds is excessive is that it's a waste of bullets, the same thing would have been achieved with 1 or 2 rounds. I'm sorry but you just can't defend someone who's threatening an armed policemen's life. If the suspect hadn't brandished the crowbar, he wouldn't be dead. He killed himself as much as the police officer. Edit: PLEASE read Eternal's post. It's by far the most sensible one in the thread, coming from someone who actually knows what he's talking about instead of .... nearly every single person in the thread (including me^^). | ||
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ozzy1346
United States38 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:10 MassacrisM wrote: It's a frickin crowbar and it barely looks dangerous. If it was a machete, or an edged weapon of sorts this would be justified, but really ? Emptying a clip at a guy at pointblank range ? This is pathetic. And here I thought police are people with at least some training at disarming or have some hand-to-hand skills to deal with situation like this. Turns out they're just your average incompetent overweight pieces of meat at the corner of the street with guns. holy shit this was a stupid comment, i hope someone comes at you with a crowbar. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10638 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:24 Stratos_speAr wrote: Again, the officers were stupid to be that close. The man had a close-ranged weapon and they had guns in their hand. The only reason that man is dead is because they put themselves into the situation to potentially be attacked. Not only that, he fired off probably double the amount of shots that were necessary to subdue the guy. I don't give a fuck if you are in a high adrenaline/dangerous situation - if you are given the legal right to use deadly force on someone, you better get a lot of fucking training on how to do it right. Take a closer look at the video, they were that close to use NON-LETHAL force on him (taser), but he merely shrugged it off and pulled out the wires from his face. At that point he immediately retaliated and swung his crowbar at the officer with said taser. What would you do as the officer with the gun? | ||
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Excludos
Norway7943 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:24 Zorkmid wrote: I'm saying that the dude with the crowbar shouldn't have been shot, and could well have died... But 5 shots in the back when the guy is probably lying dead on his face? That not professional. You need to watch the video again. The officer didn't shoot 5 in the back. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:25 On_Slaught wrote: This is why we continue to see advanacement in non-lethal weapons. A tazer was obviously a more appropriate choice. Well apparently they need more advancement, because the tazer didnt work. | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8094 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:25 On_Slaught wrote: This is why we continue to see advanacement in non-lethal weapons. A tazer was obviously a more appropriate choice. He WAS tazed, he just shrugged it off, look at the video again. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:27 Excludos wrote: You need to watch the video again. The officer didn't shoot 5 in the back. Im going off what the article says. I didnt have sound on. | ||
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Calm
Canada380 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote: This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man. First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. Did you even watch the video? The crowbar was moving towards the cop's head. Too late for backup, taser was tried... You're suggesting the cop lay down his life, get his head split open, and then the maniac be allowed to run around longer? That doesn't pose a threat to the public? | ||
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote: This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man. First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. You didn't watch it did you? If you had you would of seen they tried to tase him and it had no effect. /sigh the amount of idiocy and idealism in this thread is truly appalling. | ||
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Sgonzo
Canada202 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:24 EienShinwa wrote: This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man. First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him. ^ this is what all the people who agree with the cops actions are missing fromt heir thought process | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:27 DannyJ wrote: Well apparently they need more advancement, because the tazer didnt work. Obviously they do. I just rewatched the video and I think the officer was in the right and saw the Tazer... thought it was mace for some reason. If we consider that cops never shoot to wound, then when the "bad guy" turned towards one of the other officers with an obviously dangerous weapon, then his actions were correct imo and according to police policy. There are plenty of advancements happening with non-lethals thankfully. | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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