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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. |
United States1654 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:10 MassacrisM wrote:
It's a frickin crowbar and it barely looks dangerous. If it was a machete, or an edged weapon of sorts this would be justified, but really ? Emptying a clip at a guy at pointblank range ? This is pathetic. And here I thought police are people with at least some training at disarming or have some hand-to-hand skills to deal with situation like this. Turns out they're just your average incompetent overweight pieces of meat at the corner of the street with guns.
Really? You think that someone would want to put themselves in more danger and use "hand-to-hand skills" to disarm someone with a crowbar? I'd really love to see you try it before saying that it "barely looks dangerous". Enjoy having your skull caved in.
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On January 25 2012 05:56 FaZe wrote:
This is what happens when you have poorly trained police.
Most officers never fire their weapons outside of the range, it looks like this guy just panicked and unloaded an unnecessary number of shots into the assailant.
Points where I feel like they were incompetent :
1) The officer who fired the taser had trouble drawing his weapon, he looked down at his belt for close to 5 seconds while continuing to walk towards the suspect, directly into "crowbar range", when he tried to create distance between himself and the suspect, he clumsily stumbled away.
2) The suspect was possibly stopped by the first, and most definitely stopped by the second shot that the officer with the dog fired. After staggering him, and enough distance had been created to ensure the safety of the second officer, he proceeds to shoot him 8 more times. Admittedly firing the first shot probably caused by an adrenaline dump, but there's no excuse that I can see for being unable to handle this as a person who is supposed to protect the public.
There was absolutely more force used than was needed to subdue the guy with the crowbar, but I think it's each person's opinion to whether or not it was truly "excessive" in the situation.
Was thinking it looked like poorly trained police as well. Someone fit for the job with proper training wouldn't have gotten that close and probably wouldn't have fired more than one shot. Or I guess it depends on if anyone cares about the suspects lives to begin with, perhaps that's what it's mainly about.
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On January 25 2012 06:10 MassacrisM wrote:
It's a frickin crowbar and it barely looks dangerous. If it was a machete, or an edged weapon of sorts this would be justified, but really ? Emptying a clip at a guy at pointblank range ? This is pathetic. And here I thought police are people with at least some training at disarming or have some hand-to-hand skills to deal with situation like this. Turns out they're just your average incompetent overweight pieces of meat at the corner of the street with guns.
You should play Clue more.
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On January 25 2012 06:14 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 06:11 Sgonzo wrote:On January 25 2012 06:08 Excludos wrote:On January 25 2012 06:00 Sgonzo wrote:On January 25 2012 05:57 DeepElemBlues wrote:Who the fuck do you hang out with? Unless you're jacked up on cocaine or something, one shot to the chest is enough to immobilize someone. Well sorry but that simply isn't true with a handgun, unless it's a direct hit on the heart or the aorta. in my experience(ive seen someone shot once), a gut shot puts you into shock and you get light headed and fall to the ground casue blood ceases to flow properly through your body and that was a .38 caliber shell fired from a snub nosed revolver Obviously your experience covers an accident and not a criminal jacked up on adrenaline trying to attack someone. The two are very, very different. its very possible the criminal might not even notice a shot to the stomache before a few seconds later, at which point its a bit late. ^ it involved a robbery of a drug house so yeah Well, we can sit here all night going "what if", but the truth is that everyone reacts different at different times. The truth is that it can happen, and therefore its stupid to not prepare accordingly. I wouldn't stop after a single shot either if someone was about to swing a hammer at me. And when the adrenaline takes over, I would probably not be able to stop when I notice him about to hit the ground either. Most likely I'll shoot another shot or two, just like this police officer did. It all goes incredibly fast after all, and you really don't have time to react to what your eyes see.
^ agree everyones experience is very different, perhaps i wouldve acted the same as officer in his situation but we have the advantage of not being there and being able to actually break down waht happened and if it should have or should not have its called 20/20 hindsight, but to just toss this situation off as another justified police homicide is ludiscrous if anything this highlight the fact that police are not willign to go to any extent at all to preserve life for instance waiting for more back up before attempting to apprehend the suspect who was only breaking windows and hadnt hurt anybody yet
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On January 25 2012 06:17 Akta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:56 FaZe wrote:
This is what happens when you have poorly trained police.
Most officers never fire their weapons outside of the range, it looks like this guy just panicked and unloaded an unnecessary number of shots into the assailant.
Points where I feel like they were incompetent :
1) The officer who fired the taser had trouble drawing his weapon, he looked down at his belt for close to 5 seconds while continuing to walk towards the suspect, directly into "crowbar range", when he tried to create distance between himself and the suspect, he clumsily stumbled away.
2) The suspect was possibly stopped by the first, and most definitely stopped by the second shot that the officer with the dog fired. After staggering him, and enough distance had been created to ensure the safety of the second officer, he proceeds to shoot him 8 more times. Admittedly firing the first shot probably caused by an adrenaline dump, but there's no excuse that I can see for being unable to handle this as a person who is supposed to protect the public.
There was absolutely more force used than was needed to subdue the guy with the crowbar, but I think it's each person's opinion to whether or not it was truly "excessive" in the situation.
Was thinking it looked like poorly trained police as well. Someone fit for the job with proper training wouldn't have gotten that close and probably wouldn't have fired more than one shot. Or I guess it depends on if anyone cares about the suspects lives to begin with, perhaps that's what it's mainly about.
I disagree. It's more likely the result of being unprepared. He clearly was trained on what to do, but had no experience in a high-pressure situation. It's not like these things happen every day. Adrenaline messes you up, makes you uncoordinated. That's all it looked like
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*sigh* American police seem to just love shooting people. I don't think I ever want to visit America, if I step out of line i'll be beat or shot to death.
User was warned for this post
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Damn he unloaded an entire clip in the guy from a 2 meters away! I guess this goes as a warning to anyone else who's thinking of disobeying a order from an armed cop.
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There was no reason for the officers to be that close, and that many shots is entirely too much. The guy barely turned around and made any kind of motion to the cop before he unleashed a barrage of bullets. Definitely excessive.
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Apparently everyones an expert on being a trained policeman.
Its pretty apparent that they warned they guy that they would use deadly force to stop him. And he wasnt listening. Then he starts swinging at the neaby officer. Wtf, else you expect to happen? These things happen in mere seconds, they dont have the luxury to stop and think about the sitation when the suspect starts attacking. He was forced to use deadly force, that is what they were trained to do.
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As painful as it was to watch that video and see a fellow human being have his life ended, I honestly cannot say that I do not feel better knowing that this guy can now never hurt my loved ones or anybody else. He very easily could've just walked in there with a gun and started shooting people (which quite a few people have done)
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[B]On January 25 2012 06:15 pedalpusher wrote:
I've seen a few posts previous to mine stating in effect that 9mm ammunition is incapable of significant harm to a human if only a single round is used. This people obviously do not know what they are talking about and I would refer them it the below video:
And neither are you, when you write something as absurd as that. Its complete bs. There are a-lot of records of people not falling down from a burst of even as much as 3-4 shots. A single shot might not even be noticable for someone full of adrenaline before a couple of seconds later. At which point its too late.
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That person was an idiot. Plain and simple.
Police with guns trained on you, and you aggressively move towards one while holding a long, metal, dangerous object.? You could kill them with that, thus they acted in defense with equal force.
Police acted within his bounds, and did the right thing. I don't feel sorry whatsoever toward the guy...
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It sucks that they had to use deadly force, but their only non-lethal methods didn't work.
The first 5 shots were justified. The second, not so much. (But again, only the people there can tell if he was no longer a threat before the second 5 shots were fired).
The suspect looked like he was going after the officer who had failed to use the tazer. As someone else mentioned, whether he was just "posturing" and trying to get the officer to back away, you don't try and look tough when an officer as a gun pointed at you or you will end up getting shot. Most likely shot dead. Cops are on edge day in and day out and dealing with the blow-back of using "excessive" force is a hell of a lot more acceptable than being killed by a crazy guy/some punk with a pipe bender.
If police had more non-lethal means of taking down this suspect, that would have been ideal in this situation, but they most likely didn't have access to those tools.
Tazers and pepper spray didn't work and both can be overpowered by sheer force of will even when they do work.
Rubber bullets/shotgun bean bags might have stopped the suspect without anyone getting killed, but you can't afford to equip and train all local officers to use them.
I don't think anyone involved is happy with how this played out, but real life sucks sometimes.
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What I learned from reading this thread:
Little to no one understands law enforcement and laws governing the use of force in self defense. Shooting will be determined to be justified and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to revise their knowledge.
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if someone attacks ur partner with an axe ur supposed to do anything u can to protect him, u cant take the risk by shooting him in the leg and then he still slashes of ur partners face
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United States24670 Posts
On January 25 2012 06:20 pred470r wrote:
Damn he unloaded an entire clip in the guy from a 2 meters away! I guess this goes as a warning to anyone else who's thinking of disobeying a order from an armed cop.
No, it goes as a warning to anyone who attempts to (or very clearly looks like he is attempting to) attack an officer with a deadly weapon after repeated commands to disarm.
On January 25 2012 06:20 KryptoStorm wrote:
*sigh* American police seem to just love shooting people. I don't think I ever want to visit America, if I step out of line i'll be beat or shot to death.
Yeah, they were HOPING the guy would come at them so they could shoot him!
For the record if by 'step out of line' you mean come at my partner with a crowbar, then yes, I will drop you too.
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Video seems pretty clear cut to me. They told him repeatedly to stop, to put the weapon down. When he refused, they used non-lethal force to try and stop him. That didn't work. Then the guy lifted his weapon toward an officer to attack him, at which point DEADLY force is authorized and perfectly justified. Deadly force being authorized means that shooting a clip of rounds at someone is authorized. We can't put officers in harms way for society and then demand they take unnecessary risks with their lives. I feel more sympathy for the officers who are killed in the line of duty than for some guy who is stupid or suicidal enough to lift a sledgehammer in swinging distance of a police officer.
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He was still standing when the officer fired the second volley, you can just make him out above the car. He wasn't an immediate threat after the first 5 shots as he was then about 15ft away after running/stumbling away from the shots. He'd have probably hit the ground within a few seconds anyway without the other shots, depending how many hit him.
Brought it on himself, why would you go at a police officer with a hammer/crowbar and not expect to get gunned down?
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I'm saying that the dude with the crowbar shouldn't have been shot, and could well have died...
But 5 shots in the back when the guy is probably lying dead on his face? That not professional.
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This is completely unjustified. I don't understand the logic of this police man.
First of all, when you commit yourself to being a cop, you are putting your safety on the line for the good of the public people. That means EVERYONE, including that man he shot. If you can't safely put a man in custody, you pepper spray/taser him. If that doesn't work you back up and call for backup. You do not just take out your gun and shoot the man when you have your partner right there with you. They should have at least tried to tackle him down and put him in custody. Being a cop doesn't justify killing individuals who would try and go at you, that's in the job description of being a cop in my opinion. It's a danger you are accepting as your responsibility. I really think there could have been other methods, such as leaving the dog to distract him, tackling him down, and disarming/cuffing him.
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EPT
