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On December 24 2011 10:59 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:07 IntoTheBush wrote:On December 24 2011 09:51 Marcus420 wrote:On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Just think of the ways the gov't could abuse this power. Good luck doing any kind of occupy protest This bill will pass whether we want it too or not. Exactly. Which is another reason why I am embarrassed to say I'm a U.S. citizen. Honestly our Constitution isn't even worth the paper it's written on anymore... Also with the NDAA being passed it gives the President the right to arrest, detain, and even assassinate anybody(yes even American citizens) who are considered a threat to national security. I honestly think that once they are able to censor the net anybody who opposes what is going on in Washington will be handled accordingly. You didn't read the OP. The entire point of the OP is that the government does not have the right to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens no matter what laws Congress passes. You cannot extend constitutional authority by simply passing a law.
While this may be true, the amount of time it takes for anything to reach the supreme court and get rulled on once-and-for-all is ridiculously long. It would likely be at least 10 years. For example, the Defense of Marriage Act and whether sexual orientation is a suspect class has yet to be ruled on by the Supreme Court definitively.
With this in mind, the law is in essence, in effect for ten years and the people passing it can't be sued or held accountable.
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Obama's reservations towards the bill already forced alterations that should alleviate any fears.
"The new law now requires military custody for any suspect who is a member of al-Qaida or "associated forces" and involved in planning or attempting to carry out an attack on the United States or its coalition partners. The president or a designated subordinate may waive the military custody requirement by certifying to Congress that such a move is in the interest of national security.
The administration also pushed Congress to change a provision that would have denied U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism the right to trial and could have subjected them to indefinite detention. Lawmakers eventually dropped the military custody requirement for U.S. citizens or lawful U.S. residents."
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/31/144524058/obama-signs-defense-bill-with-reservations?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights,
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1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now.
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The language is purposefully vague to cover al-Awlaki type cases.
I don't see how it doesn't conflict with the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which stated that American citizens could not be denied the right to file a writ of habeas corpus, period.
Saying the president may decide that a citizen detained under the rules of this act can get a hearing is nice but the Constitution says that the president can't make that decision and that Congress only can if it votes to invoke martial law.
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On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now.
The OP mistyped the section number:
Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540
People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite.
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On January 01 2012 11:39 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:On January 01 2012 11:07 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 09:53 Ympulse wrote: Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights, Section 1021, the "infinite detainment" statute, is not in the final bill. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:7:./temp/~c112zkMBxz:: 1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now. The OP mistyped the section number: Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite.
It does appear they renamed it from 1031 to 1021, my apologies. It still appears to have made the cut- the Udall amendment was defeated, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that the provision was taken out.
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On January 01 2012 12:03 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 11:39 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:On January 01 2012 11:07 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 09:53 Ympulse wrote: Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights, Section 1021, the "infinite detainment" statute, is not in the final bill. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:7:./temp/~c112zkMBxz:: 1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now. The OP mistyped the section number: Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite. It does appear they renamed it from 1031 to 1021, my apologies. It still appears to have made the cut- the Udall amendment was defeated, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that the provision was taken out.
My mistake too, the section was not entirely omitted - Feinstein got a compromise amendment to assert that it doesn't "change" things, which remains ambiguous as to how things currently are in regards to indefinite detention of American citizens.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1211/Senate_votes_to_allow_indefinite_detention_of_Americans.html
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Welp, looks like my plans to move out of the country are becoming more and more reasonable by the day.
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So where are the OWS type protests for this bill? What the hell kind of free country could allow such a proposal to pass into law without resistance from the people.
Governements are nothing without people and it is your right to oppose your own government should you deem them unworthy
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( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
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The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
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On January 02 2012 04:09 ryanAnger wrote: ( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
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The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
I feel that this is misleading since our backyards are now considered a warzone. It will be like internment camps in WW2 for Japanese-Americans, only worse because this is a perpetual war.
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I believe this will further strenghten the Social stigmas against people of different races who live in the US(not trying to be offensive), because some people (and sadly, some of those who serve on police departments and have patrol duties) are extremely prejudicial when it comes to this kind of issue, and will probably look down on those who may look "suspicious" to them. I don't really see this spreading to other countries though because of the different mindset that other places have but, this is just my point of view, and may be mistaken.
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TL;DR The President’s opponents played the electorate like a fiddle and will get away with it because people don’t seem to realize they’ve been tricked into being angry at the wrong person.
He signed it because if he didn’t, defense spending including benefits to veterans and their families would not have been authorized. The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop. I’ll repeat that: the parts of this bill that many people here hate were included against the President’s wishes and in a way that he is powerless to stop. The only way he could have stopped these sections from being included would have been to try to veto the bill in its entirety, a move that would have been both political suicide as well as being futile, as Congress would simply have overridden him. He is explicit in his opposition to exactly the parts of the bill everyone here hates, going so far as to detail exactly which sections he opposes and why.
You’ll notice that the bill also restricts his ability to close Guantanamo Bay; this isn’t coincidence. These sections are openly hostile to the President’s stated mandate - they are effectively a giant ‘fuck you’ to the President, as well as a nasty way of eroding the President’s support with his own base. Observe:
Draft legislation that is almost guaranteed to piss of the President but more importantly piss of his base. Attach said legislation to another piece of larger, more important legislation like, say, the Defense Spending budget for the entire year so that any attempt to dislodge the offensive legislation will result in a political shitstorm, as well as place the larger legislation in jeopardy. Once attached, begin a PR campaign that highlights the offending legislation and brings it to the attention of as many media outlets as possible - not just the traditional media, but alternative media outlets as well (Fox news, MSNBC, Media Matters, Huff-Po, Infowars, etc.) Here’s where it gets tricky: Simultaneously, speak to both your party’s base and the opposition’s. To your base, argue that the legislation is necessary to ‘Keep America safe’ and that the President, by opposing it, is clearly soft of terrorism and endangering the military by trying to strip the legislation out. At the same time, sit back and watch your opponent’s liberal supporters tear into the offending legislation as being dangerous, anti-democratic, and a threat to civil liberties. You know they will; that’s what they care about most. You’ve designed legislation that will make them froth at the mouth. You don’t even have to keep flogging the message; one look at the legislation will be enough to convince most people that it is anathema to everything they hold dear. Because it is. Pass the ‘parent’ legislation. Doing so forces the President to sign it or attempt to veto it. Since the legislation in question just so happens to be the military’s operating budget, a veto is out of the question. The President must sign the bill, you get the legislation you wanted, but you also practically guarantee that your opponent’s base will be furious at him for passing a bill they see as evil. Even if he tries to explain in detail why he had to sign it and what he hates about it, it won’t matter; ignorance of the American political process, coupled with an almost militant indifference to subtle explanations will almost ensure that most people will only remember that the President passed a bill they hate. Profit. you get the legislation you want, while the President has to contend with a furious base that feels he betrayed them - even though he agrees with their position but simply lacked the legislative tools to stop this from happening. It’s a classic piece of misdirection that needs only two things to work: A lack of principles (or a partisan ideology that is willing to say anything - do anything - to win), and an electorate that is easy to fool. This is pretty basic political maneuvering and the biggest problem is that it almost always works because most people either don’t know or don’t care how their political system actually functions. The President was saddled with a lose-lose situation where he either seriously harmed American defense policy (political suicide), or passed offensive legislation knowing that it would cost him political capital. To all of you here lamenting that you ever voted for this ‘corporate shill’, congratulations: you are the result the Republicans were hoping for. They get the law they want, they get the weakened Presidential candidate they want. And many of you just don’t seem to see that. You don’t have to like your country’s two-party system, but it pays to be able to understand it so that you can recognize when it’s being used like this.
EDIT: thanks to Reddit user Mauve_Cubedweller for this post
found on tumblr regarding the issue (which apparently came from reddit)
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Rest in peace land of the free... Your democracy is a farce and your president is a traitor. I'm not saying the united states is necessarily worse than anyplace else but i truly did believe the policies since 911 was only a temporary setback.
User was warned for this post edit: ok i clearly can't keep my fucking mouth shut^^ will stay away from threads about american politics... I'm only upset because i love you! It's not the first warning like this i get.
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On January 02 2012 04:09 ryanAnger wrote: ( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
-----
The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
You do know that the WWII US concentration type camps are still ruled to be constitutional legal by the supreme court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States
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On January 02 2012 14:12 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +TL;DR The President’s opponents played the electorate like a fiddle and will get away with it because people don’t seem to realize they’ve been tricked into being angry at the wrong person.
He signed it because if he didn’t, defense spending including benefits to veterans and their families would not have been authorized. The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop. I’ll repeat that: the parts of this bill that many people here hate were included against the President’s wishes and in a way that he is powerless to stop. The only way he could have stopped these sections from being included would have been to try to veto the bill in its entirety, a move that would have been both political suicide as well as being futile, as Congress would simply have overridden him. He is explicit in his opposition to exactly the parts of the bill everyone here hates, going so far as to detail exactly which sections he opposes and why.
You’ll notice that the bill also restricts his ability to close Guantanamo Bay; this isn’t coincidence. These sections are openly hostile to the President’s stated mandate - they are effectively a giant ‘fuck you’ to the President, as well as a nasty way of eroding the President’s support with his own base. Observe:
Draft legislation that is almost guaranteed to piss of the President but more importantly piss of his base. Attach said legislation to another piece of larger, more important legislation like, say, the Defense Spending budget for the entire year so that any attempt to dislodge the offensive legislation will result in a political shitstorm, as well as place the larger legislation in jeopardy. Once attached, begin a PR campaign that highlights the offending legislation and brings it to the attention of as many media outlets as possible - not just the traditional media, but alternative media outlets as well (Fox news, MSNBC, Media Matters, Huff-Po, Infowars, etc.) Here’s where it gets tricky: Simultaneously, speak to both your party’s base and the opposition’s. To your base, argue that the legislation is necessary to ‘Keep America safe’ and that the President, by opposing it, is clearly soft of terrorism and endangering the military by trying to strip the legislation out. At the same time, sit back and watch your opponent’s liberal supporters tear into the offending legislation as being dangerous, anti-democratic, and a threat to civil liberties. You know they will; that’s what they care about most. You’ve designed legislation that will make them froth at the mouth. You don’t even have to keep flogging the message; one look at the legislation will be enough to convince most people that it is anathema to everything they hold dear. Because it is. Pass the ‘parent’ legislation. Doing so forces the President to sign it or attempt to veto it. Since the legislation in question just so happens to be the military’s operating budget, a veto is out of the question. The President must sign the bill, you get the legislation you wanted, but you also practically guarantee that your opponent’s base will be furious at him for passing a bill they see as evil. Even if he tries to explain in detail why he had to sign it and what he hates about it, it won’t matter; ignorance of the American political process, coupled with an almost militant indifference to subtle explanations will almost ensure that most people will only remember that the President passed a bill they hate. Profit. you get the legislation you want, while the President has to contend with a furious base that feels he betrayed them - even though he agrees with their position but simply lacked the legislative tools to stop this from happening. It’s a classic piece of misdirection that needs only two things to work: A lack of principles (or a partisan ideology that is willing to say anything - do anything - to win), and an electorate that is easy to fool. This is pretty basic political maneuvering and the biggest problem is that it almost always works because most people either don’t know or don’t care how their political system actually functions. The President was saddled with a lose-lose situation where he either seriously harmed American defense policy (political suicide), or passed offensive legislation knowing that it would cost him political capital. To all of you here lamenting that you ever voted for this ‘corporate shill’, congratulations: you are the result the Republicans were hoping for. They get the law they want, they get the weakened Presidential candidate they want. And many of you just don’t seem to see that. You don’t have to like your country’s two-party system, but it pays to be able to understand it so that you can recognize when it’s being used like this.
EDIT: thanks to Reddit user Mauve_Cubedweller for this post found on tumblr regarding the issue (which apparently came from reddit)
There appears to be quite a lot of misinformation in there, and possibly written by a Democrat appologist, but this part especially jumps out at me as being totally wrong, since the provision was authored by Levin (D) and McCain (R)- and we all know how the voting went (not to mention how miserably the Udall amendment failed):
The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop.
The threat to veto was because of a spat over the exact specifics of powers granted to the executive branch in our increasingly totalitarian police state, not the trampling of liberty or freedom.
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Hedges to sue Obama, Panetta source (including legal doc): http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_im_suing_barack_obama_20120116/ + Show Spoiler + Attorneys Carl J. Mayer and Bruce I. Afran filed a complaint Friday in the Southern U.S. District Court in New York City on my behalf as a plaintiff against Barack Obama and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to challenge the legality of the Authorization for Use of Military Force as embedded in the latest version of the National Defense Authorization Act, signed by the president Dec. 31.
The act authorizes the military in Title X, Subtitle D, entitled “Counter-Terrorism,” for the first time in more than 200 years, to carry out domestic policing. With this bill, which will take effect March 3, the military can indefinitely detain without trial any U.S. citizen deemed to be a terrorist or an accessory to terrorism. And suspects can be shipped by the military to our offshore penal colony in Guantanamo Bay and kept there until “the end of hostilities.” It is a catastrophic blow to civil liberties.
I spent many years in countries where the military had the power to arrest and detain citizens without charge. I have been in some of these jails. I have friends and colleagues who have “disappeared” into military gulags. I know the consequences of granting sweeping and unrestricted policing power to the armed forces of any nation. And while my battle may be quixotic, it is one that has to be fought if we are to have any hope of pulling this country back from corporate fascism.
Section 1031 of the bill defines a “covered person”—one subject to detention—as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.”
The bill, however, does not define the terms “substantially supported,” “directly supported” or “associated forces.” I met regularly with leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza. I used to visit Palestine Liberation Organization leaders, including Yasser Arafat and Abu Jihad, in Tunis when they were branded international terrorists. I have spent time with the Revolutionary Guard in Iran and was in northern Iraq and southeastern Turkey with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party. All these entities were or are labeled as terrorist organizations by the U.S. government. What would this bill have meant if it had been in place when I and other Americans traveled in the 1980s with armed units of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua or the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front guerrillas in El Salvador? What would it have meant for those of us who were with the southern insurgents during the civil war in Yemen or the rebels in the southern Sudan? I have had dinner more times than I can count with people whom this country brands as terrorists. But that does not make me one.
Once a group is deemed to be a terrorist organization, whether it is a Palestinian charity or an element of the Uighur independence movement, the military can under this bill pick up a U.S. citizen who supported charities associated with the group or unwittingly sent money or medical supplies to front groups. We have already seen the persecution and closure of Islamic charity organizations in the United States that supported the Palestinians. Now the members of these organizations can be treated like card-carrying “terrorists” and sent to Guantanamo.
But I suspect the real purpose of this bill is to thwart internal, domestic movements that threaten the corporate state. The definition of a terrorist is already so amorphous under the Patriot Act that there are probably a few million Americans who qualify to be investigated if not locked up. Consider the arcane criteria that can make you a suspect in our new military-corporate state. The Department of Justice considers you worth investigating if you are missing a few fingers, if you have weatherproof ammunition, if you own guns or if you have hoarded more than seven days of food in your house. Adding a few of the obstructionist tactics of the Occupy movement to this list would be a seamless process. On the whim of the military, a suspected “terrorist” who also happens to be a U.S. citizen can suffer extraordinary rendition—being kidnapped and then left to rot in one of our black sites “until the end of hostilities.” Since this is an endless war that will be a very long stay.
This demented “war on terror” is as undefined and vague as such a conflict is in any totalitarian state. Dissent is increasingly equated in this country with treason. Enemies supposedly lurk in every organization that does not chant the patriotic mantras provided to it by the state. And this bill feeds a mounting state paranoia. It expands our permanent war to every spot on the globe. It erases fundamental constitutional liberties. It means we can no longer use the word “democracy” to describe our political system.
The supine and gutless Democratic Party, which would have feigned outrage if George W. Bush had put this into law, appears willing, once again, to grant Obama a pass. But I won’t. What he has done is unforgivable, unconstitutional and exceedingly dangerous. The threat and reach of al-Qaida—which I spent a year covering for The New York Times in Europe and the Middle East—are marginal, despite the attacks of 9/11. The terrorist group poses no existential threat to the nation. It has been so disrupted and broken that it can barely function. Osama bin Laden was gunned down by commandos and his body dumped into the sea. Even the Pentagon says the organization is crippled. So why, a decade after the start of the so-called war on terror, do these draconian measures need to be implemented? Why do U.S. citizens now need to be specifically singled out for military detention and denial of due process when under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force the president can apparently find the legal cover to serve as judge, jury and executioner to assassinate U.S. citizens, as he did in the killing of the cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen? Why is this bill necessary when the government routinely ignores our Fifth Amendment rights—“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”—as well as our First Amendment right of free speech? How much more power do they need to fight “terrorism”?
Fear is the psychological weapon of choice for totalitarian systems of power. Make the people afraid. Get them to surrender their rights in the name of national security. And then finish off the few who aren’t afraid enough. If this law is not revoked we will be no different from any sordid military dictatorship. Its implementation will be a huge leap forward for the corporate oligarchs who plan to continue to plunder the nation and use state and military security to cow the population into submission.
The oddest part of this legislation is that the FBI, the CIA, the director of national intelligence, the Pentagon and the attorney general didn’t support it. FBI Director Robert Mueller said he feared the bill would actually impede the bureau’s ability to investigate terrorism because it would be harder to win cooperation from suspects held by the military. “The possibility looms that we will lose opportunities to obtain cooperation from the persons in the past that we’ve been fairly successful in gaining,” he told Congress.
But it passed anyway. And I suspect it passed because the corporations, seeing the unrest in the streets, knowing that things are about to get much worse, worrying that the Occupy movement will expand, do not trust the police to protect them. They want to be able to call in the Army. And now they can.
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On January 02 2012 02:54 Orcasgt24 wrote: So where are the OWS type protests for this bill? What the hell kind of free country could allow such a proposal to pass into law without resistance from the people.
Governements are nothing without people and it is your right to oppose your own government should you deem them unworthy
I agree entirely. For one, its definitely not covered much by the media, and two, many people think it would/could never happen. I'm no Historian, but I'm pretty sure Hitler passed a document granting him similar powers; to jail indefinitely anyone deemed a threat to the nation. If they say they won't actually use it to detain a citizen then why is it in there? Power like this should never be given to the Government, especially under such vague conditions.
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