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On November 24 2011 19:25 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 17:24 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. While I won't list a bunch of countries, as that would be pointless, I'll tell you what qualifies a country as civilized. - Equality in law for people of all races and genders (LAW, not society) - Minimal fear of the government harming its own citizens for their own benefit - Minimal fear of citizens attacking people for religious/personal beliefs (Keep in mind this means in general, plenty of countries that are civilized have ghettos where this may happen) - Separation of religion and government, to a reasonable extent Afghanistan does not fulfill all of these requirements, therefore they are not civilized. Now feel free to actually input something rather than just ask questions. if I am not mistaken, that is only your definition of civilized. for one, you are missing education. (and how to define equality? it isn't so simple.)
His question was: "In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not?". So yea, of course its only my definition of civilized.
I don't see why you need education in order to be civilized. Feel free to explain.
Equality means treated equally. It's very easy to define, it's just hard to apply.
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Historically, it's been personal moral discipline that curbed bad behavior. Today it seems like we all turn to governments or law enforcement to control what our societal decline in moral discipline has caused -- bad behavior.
Religions may not have a perfect record of obeying the teachings they themselves advocate, but to abolish religion entirely on that basis is illogical. People who openly blame 'religion' as a whole, refuse to accept that the individuals generally found contradicting the teachings of their professed religion, are 'extremist' or have misinterpreted or perverted the teachings to promote violence in the name of deity. The large majority of the adherents to any of these faiths in question, are moral and good people. To demand they give up their belief system because a few have tarnished the reputation of that system, is a dangerous step toward denying individuals freedom and liberty.
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On November 25 2011 08:29 dOofuS wrote:
Historically, it's been personal moral discipline that curbed bad behavior. Today it seems like we all turn to governments or law enforcement to control what our societal decline in moral discipline has caused -- bad behavior.
Religions may not have a perfect record of obeying the teachings they themselves advocate, but to abolish religion entirely on that basis is illogical. People who openly blame 'religion' as a whole, refuse to accept that the individuals generally found contradicting the teachings of their professed religion, are 'extremist' or have misinterpreted or perverted the teachings to promote violence in the name of deity. The large majority of the adherents to any of these faiths in question, are moral and good people. To demand they give up their belief system because a few have tarnished the reputation of that system, is a dangerous step toward denying individuals freedom and liberty.
It's also really stupid, don't forget that. Still, what way is there to remove religious extremism other than taking away the medium in which it is practiced? I'm going by the logic that the suffering of the many outweighs the happiness of the many
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On November 25 2011 07:10 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 19:25 ETisME wrote:On November 24 2011 17:24 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. While I won't list a bunch of countries, as that would be pointless, I'll tell you what qualifies a country as civilized. - Equality in law for people of all races and genders (LAW, not society) - Minimal fear of the government harming its own citizens for their own benefit - Minimal fear of citizens attacking people for religious/personal beliefs (Keep in mind this means in general, plenty of countries that are civilized have ghettos where this may happen) - Separation of religion and government, to a reasonable extent Afghanistan does not fulfill all of these requirements, therefore they are not civilized. Now feel free to actually input something rather than just ask questions. if I am not mistaken, that is only your definition of civilized. for one, you are missing education. (and how to define equality? it isn't so simple.) His question was: "In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not?". So yea, of course its only my definition of civilized. I don't see why you need education in order to be civilized. Feel free to explain. Equality means treated equally. It's very easy to define, it's just hard to apply.
treating equally doesn't mean equality. One very good example is, in some countries, women have stand-up urine toilet, is that equality? When you put it as part of your requirements, how do you define there is equity in law?
One definition that I stumbled upon when I was doing some related assignment, all the definitions that I came across never had clear steps of defining a country is civilised or not. The only common theme that they mentioned was "Culture" (from historical values and education to the current generation). High culture and Low culture level. The rest are such as "people have high level of ethics and moral"
It's a topic of sociology philosophy which I am not too familiar with, but saying out right as if Afghanistan is not civilized because they do not "fulfill" the requirements is just not right.
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On November 25 2011 12:38 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 08:29 dOofuS wrote:
Historically, it's been personal moral discipline that curbed bad behavior. Today it seems like we all turn to governments or law enforcement to control what our societal decline in moral discipline has caused -- bad behavior.
Religions may not have a perfect record of obeying the teachings they themselves advocate, but to abolish religion entirely on that basis is illogical. People who openly blame 'religion' as a whole, refuse to accept that the individuals generally found contradicting the teachings of their professed religion, are 'extremist' or have misinterpreted or perverted the teachings to promote violence in the name of deity. The large majority of the adherents to any of these faiths in question, are moral and good people. To demand they give up their belief system because a few have tarnished the reputation of that system, is a dangerous step toward denying individuals freedom and liberty. It's also really stupid, don't forget that. Still, what way is there to remove religious extremism other than taking away the medium in which it is practiced? I'm going by the logic that the suffering of the many outweighs the happiness of the many
Just because you don't like religion, what justifies, in all seriousness, the complete abolition of it? It offers peace, comfort, understanding, and happiness to many people. To completely remove it because you don't see the value in it, seems pretty selfish. Truly religious individuals are not going to harm you. They obey certain laws and adhere to moral principles because of an understanding of their purpose and benefit to themselves and society. The individuals who twist doctrines to justify breaking their own religions principles and teachings are a minority and should not be allowed to dictate the freedoms of the majority.
You're implying we should not allow individuals the freedom to practice religion.
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I'm not saying that that's a good thing. If you read the beginning of my comment, you'd know I openly acknowledged it as being a stupid idea. All I am basically saying is that there is no simple solution to religious extremism, and the one we do have is moronic and unjust.
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There are some cruel practices in different parts of the world, especially as we look in on other cultures. One that comes to mind similar to this is Pakistan's anti-blasphemy law, which can and does put people in jail (or sometimes kill) people for not following the main religion. A lot of Christians have been persecuted in Pakistan. I'm sure other countries are at oddswith each other over the difference in customs and traditions. However, I think the majority can agree that things like this are horrific and should be ended, at least from the western viewpoint.
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On November 23 2011 20:41 Wafflelisk wrote:
I'm usually a moral relativity guy; that other cultures have different values and should not be looked down upon. But even this has it's limits. And this, my friends, is a limit. Truly disgusting.
that moral relativity idea is morally bankrupt
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ya this is pretty bad. The worst part about these uncivlisised countries prosecuting women is that it is the womens own male family members subscribe to such outrageous customs.
On a side note how come in the general section of team liquid it is mostly horrible stories that are posted lol?
In the last week there has been: child beaten by judge, american soldier rapes girls, girl raped, child run over by van, etc.
I know the posters are trying to generate a conversation but what do they expect to hear besides its horrible lol. nobody is gonna disagree with them and if they do they get banned. Not really complaining it keeps me up to date with the latest horrors of the world but maybe the team liquid community needs to look on the brighter side lol.
I expect to see darkness lifted with posts of: girl makes cookies for nursing home, girl starts charity to help the homeless, american soldiers build schools for afghani children.
get to work ^^
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But Ill belive that if you underestimate the woman, you will never achive anything. The woman has always been pushed down in all situations through time. But I guess that the Arabic countries reads the bible too mutch and thinks to little by them selfs.
Not that having a religion is something bad, I belive that everybody need something to belive in. Like, God, Allah etc. But everybody cant just stand in line and dont walk forward. I dont know if there is a solution to the problem, but something need to be done soon.
Regards,
Gustav
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On November 25 2011 17:04 iRk wrote:
But Ill belive that if you underestimate the woman, you will never achive anything. The woman has always been pushed down in all situations through time. But I guess that the Arabic countries reads the bible too mutch and thinks to little by them selfs.
Not that having a religion is something bad, I belive that everybody need something to belive in. Like, God, Allah etc. But everybody cant just stand in line and dont walk forward. I dont know if there is a solution to the problem, but something need to be done soon.
Regards,
Gustav
?
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On November 25 2011 15:56 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 20:41 Wafflelisk wrote:
I'm usually a moral relativity guy; that other cultures have different values and should not be looked down upon. But even this has it's limits. And this, my friends, is a limit. Truly disgusting. that moral relativity idea is morally bankrupt
Edit: nevermind, pretty sure I didn't understand your comment/joke/criticism properly the first time I made my post.
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So pretty much if you don't want to go to jail, don't get raped. Fucking ace logic.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 25 2011 17:10 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 17:04 iRk wrote:
But Ill belive that if you underestimate the woman, you will never achive anything. The woman has always been pushed down in all situations through time. But I guess that the Arabic countries reads the bible too mutch and thinks to little by them selfs.
Not that having a religion is something bad, I belive that everybody need something to belive in. Like, God, Allah etc. But everybody cant just stand in line and dont walk forward. I dont know if there is a solution to the problem, but something need to be done soon.
Regards,
Gustav ?
He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about
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Someone explained to me in Arab culture men are treated as if they were children, almost all the shame and honor for that matter is placed on women it isn't religious it's tribal. This is why their women are 100% covered up in some of these countries they just accept the fact men are dogs and if they are aroused they will act like dogs. So from their point of view this is how they blame the women isn't it sad how little Arab's except form their men.
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On November 25 2011 13:50 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 07:10 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 19:25 ETisME wrote:On November 24 2011 17:24 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. While I won't list a bunch of countries, as that would be pointless, I'll tell you what qualifies a country as civilized. - Equality in law for people of all races and genders (LAW, not society) - Minimal fear of the government harming its own citizens for their own benefit - Minimal fear of citizens attacking people for religious/personal beliefs (Keep in mind this means in general, plenty of countries that are civilized have ghettos where this may happen) - Separation of religion and government, to a reasonable extent Afghanistan does not fulfill all of these requirements, therefore they are not civilized. Now feel free to actually input something rather than just ask questions. if I am not mistaken, that is only your definition of civilized. for one, you are missing education. (and how to define equality? it isn't so simple.) His question was: "In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not?". So yea, of course its only my definition of civilized. I don't see why you need education in order to be civilized. Feel free to explain. Equality means treated equally. It's very easy to define, it's just hard to apply. treating equally doesn't mean equality. One very good example is, in some countries, women have stand-up urine toilet, is that equality? When you put it as part of your requirements, how do you define there is equity in law? One definition that I stumbled upon when I was doing some related assignment, all the definitions that I came across never had clear steps of defining a country is civilised or not. The only common theme that they mentioned was "Culture" (from historical values and education to the current generation). High culture and Low culture level. The rest are such as "people have high level of ethics and moral" It's a topic of sociology philosophy which I am not too familiar with, but saying out right as if Afghanistan is not civilized because they do not "fulfill" the requirements is just not right.
What do stand-up urine toilets for women have to do with equality in law?
How do I define that there is equality in law? Well when laws don't explicitly state a certain gender or certain race should be treated different, then equality should exist.
So would you say Afghanistan is a civilized country then? Because I would love to hear your reasoning for that.
Also you can't say you're not familiar with something then say my opinion on the matter isn't right. After all you just said you don't know much about the subject, so you can't define what is right or wrong concerning it.
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On November 25 2011 20:48 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 13:50 ETisME wrote:On November 25 2011 07:10 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 19:25 ETisME wrote:On November 24 2011 17:24 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. While I won't list a bunch of countries, as that would be pointless, I'll tell you what qualifies a country as civilized. - Equality in law for people of all races and genders (LAW, not society) - Minimal fear of the government harming its own citizens for their own benefit - Minimal fear of citizens attacking people for religious/personal beliefs (Keep in mind this means in general, plenty of countries that are civilized have ghettos where this may happen) - Separation of religion and government, to a reasonable extent Afghanistan does not fulfill all of these requirements, therefore they are not civilized. Now feel free to actually input something rather than just ask questions. if I am not mistaken, that is only your definition of civilized. for one, you are missing education. (and how to define equality? it isn't so simple.) His question was: "In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not?". So yea, of course its only my definition of civilized. I don't see why you need education in order to be civilized. Feel free to explain. Equality means treated equally. It's very easy to define, it's just hard to apply. treating equally doesn't mean equality. One very good example is, in some countries, women have stand-up urine toilet, is that equality? When you put it as part of your requirements, how do you define there is equity in law? One definition that I stumbled upon when I was doing some related assignment, all the definitions that I came across never had clear steps of defining a country is civilised or not. The only common theme that they mentioned was "Culture" (from historical values and education to the current generation). High culture and Low culture level. The rest are such as "people have high level of ethics and moral" It's a topic of sociology philosophy which I am not too familiar with, but saying out right as if Afghanistan is not civilized because they do not "fulfill" the requirements is just not right. What do stand-up urine toilets for women have to do with equality in law? How do I define that there is equality in law? Well when laws don't explicitly state a certain gender or certain race should be treated different, then equality should exist. So would you say Afghanistan is a civilized country then? Because I would love to hear your reasoning for that. Also you can't say you're not familiar with something then say my opinion on the matter isn't right. After all you just said you don't know much about the subject, so you can't define what is right or wrong concerning it.
Actually, what "the laws explicitly state" has almost Nothing to do with how society operates. Laws on the books are ignored by aspects of the government or don't cover actions by non governmental portions of society.
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On November 24 2011 10:32 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 09:28 s4life wrote:On November 24 2011 08:52 Rebs wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the nature of society in the country, the same thing is pretty common where I am from, its pretty disgusting but the issues here are alot more complex than "omg what a savage society"
This has everything to do with religion friend. Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs. The problem with these beliefs is that you don't need to explain them logically or rationally, it's a jump made in the dark to an even darker place... hopefully your society will someday outgrow religion, at least to the same degree western cultures did w.r.t. catholic religion in the middle ages. Edit: to the poster above me.. I think you misquoted me. Just bare in mind that correlation != causation. A religious person can do monstrous stuff for reasons other than religion. If it was as simple as "Perfectly normal, average people will do the most terrible things -- mostly to women and children -- just because of religious beliefs." then you would expect that religious people are generally doing this more than non-religious. Well in societies that aren't stuck in the middle ages, I doubt this is the case. For example, this isn't possible in the US. Not because people are less religious but because people and society as a whole is more educated, structured and there is a robust system of law. People do monstrous things without religion. People do monstrous things with religion. It is how society deals with them that is different. It is easy to blame this stuff on religion, it just isn't always the cause. The fact that there are millions of muslims all over the world and this shit only happens in countries where societal structure has broken down, suggests to me that perhaps religion isn't the major cause for this behaviour.
I did not exclude any other reason as to why a person would commit mounstruos acts. I simply stated that it takes religion for a normal, otherwise good and moral person to commit the most hyenous acts against women and children and I stand by that statement.
I agree on your second point, we are not torturing/burning people or killing women suspected of being witches no more BECAUSE we outgrew religion. Here in USA, the grip of religion has been reduced to basically a community outreach/building institution and that's fine.. to a certain point. However, in societies like the middle eastern ones, poverty, lack of education and other maladies are, if not as a direct result, facilitated tremendously by the dissemination of certain religious beliefs. Tere, women abuse in all possible ways is excused because of religion -- that's not correlation my friend, they jail women after being raped because of a twisted interpretation of the Coran --. Poverty in fact, is a direct consequence of the disempowerment of women if you think about it.
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On November 25 2011 13:50 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 07:10 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 19:25 ETisME wrote:On November 24 2011 17:24 killa_robot wrote:On November 24 2011 14:02 Zvek wrote:On November 24 2011 13:54 killa_robot wrote:
Its Afghanistan, its not as though its a civilized country.
This is just terrible. In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not? And in your opinion, please list down the civilized and non civilized country that you know. While I won't list a bunch of countries, as that would be pointless, I'll tell you what qualifies a country as civilized. - Equality in law for people of all races and genders (LAW, not society) - Minimal fear of the government harming its own citizens for their own benefit - Minimal fear of citizens attacking people for religious/personal beliefs (Keep in mind this means in general, plenty of countries that are civilized have ghettos where this may happen) - Separation of religion and government, to a reasonable extent Afghanistan does not fulfill all of these requirements, therefore they are not civilized. Now feel free to actually input something rather than just ask questions. if I am not mistaken, that is only your definition of civilized. for one, you are missing education. (and how to define equality? it isn't so simple.) His question was: "In your opinion, what makes a country civilized or not?". So yea, of course its only my definition of civilized. I don't see why you need education in order to be civilized. Feel free to explain. Equality means treated equally. It's very easy to define, it's just hard to apply. treating equally doesn't mean equality. One very good example is, in some countries, women have stand-up urine toilet, is that equality? When you put it as part of your requirements, how do you define there is equity in law? One definition that I stumbled upon when I was doing some related assignment, all the definitions that I came across never had clear steps of defining a country is civilised or not. The only common theme that they mentioned was "Culture" (from historical values and education to the current generation). High culture and Low culture level. The rest are such as "people have high level of ethics and moral" It's a topic of sociology philosophy which I am not too familiar with, but saying out right as if Afghanistan is not civilized because they do not "fulfill" the requirements is just not right.
Yes, lets all argue about semantics and personal definitions, because thats what the topic is about. Right?
Most countries that follow Shariat have a tough time ensuring civil liberties of women are protected. The men get to do whatever the hell they want. It is always the woman who bears the greater punishment even if they are innocent. Honor killings and mistreatment of women is a common occurrence in these countries.
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EPT
