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On November 21 2011 18:29 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 18:23 furymonkey wrote:
I think firehosing them would be good option! :D eh... while it's fun, that's far more dangerous than macing.
The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population".[9] However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2000 public safety agencies.[10]
Fire hose has a lot to live up to.
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I read on the interview with a guy who had been maced that the pepper spray was only designed to be used at 15 feet range. He said he vomited twice, and ended up with dry-heaves, as well as stinging (obviously). He says the effects were still with him the day after.
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These protesters should not be confused with being "peaceful". They are merely non-violently violating the rights of other people, specifically the owners of the campus. No such violation is an act of peace.
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On November 21 2011 13:51 AlmightyJoker wrote:
seems appropriate to me. police told students to move, they didn't, police used non violent measures to remove them. too many of these OWS protesters are just DYING for the police to do anything just so they can all start screaming and crying about police brutality, as if police are part of the (vaguely defined) problem they are protesting. the police are just doing their jobs. i bet almost every single officer would rather be doing his normal job, patrolling and what not rather than have to forcibly remove these idiots.
agreed these people are not doing any good what so ever they would rather rebel then work to better there life. they want it all the good life but refuse to work for it.
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I'm continually mystified by these protests, exactly what do these and the Wallstreet protestors actually think they are going to accomplish here? Real political change in a democracy is accomplished by changing hearts and minds of voters of every day people. Living in a tent city and shouting slogans over and over does not do this.
There is a clear difference between those political activities that make people "feel" like they are making a difference and those activities which do make a clear difference politically. Voters are not going to be convinced that they should pay millions in extra taxes because some young people were trying to live in tents and got pepper sprayed. This has all the hallmarks of a news story to which people say "oh, how terrible" and then move on with their lives.
As a general rule, in the US system if the activity doesn't raise money or directly support a candidate it is pointless. That's partly an effect of our two party system, but it's also an effect of how the masses of sheep respond to marketing. After weeks, the Occupy Wallstreet crowd accomplished nothing other than massively disrupting an entire neighborhood and making themselves look foolish. Meanwhile Mitt Romney has put several million dollars in the bank. Who do you think is going to have a bigger political impact? I'll give you one guess.
I'm not arguing that this system is right or wrong, but it is reality. These students can protest and shout "shame" all they want, but it's not going to stop their tuition from going up. If you want to convince California tax payers to pay out tens of millions of dollars in additional taxes, you had better have a very organized campaign and marketing systems. Otherwise good luck.
Bracing for the inevitable stupid replies of "nu-uh, money isn't everything". Yeah, only in the real world.
On November 21 2011 14:02 Kuja wrote:
What did these children think would happen? Im so glad they got what was coming to them. Obviously Steve Jobs/Bill Gates didn't make their fortune circle jerking on the campus. If the kids could do 1/100 of what our rich do for us they would all be loaded; But they cant, they're to stupid. They don't have to work do they? People should work for them and they should get the money right? But in all honestly, i haven't had as good a laugh in a long time as these videos gave me, Thanks.
EDIT: Also it was MACE, not pepper spray, which makes it even funnier.
While I do agree with you in principle, I need to point out that Jobs was in fact a crazy hippy. Also Jobs and Gates didn't make their fortunes posting on internet forums; go figure. Also you need to turn down the aggressiveness by three notches.
But I agree with your rhetorical sentiment, I too am curious to exactly what they though they were going to get out of this.
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On November 21 2011 18:23 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 16:28 Yamoth wrote:On November 21 2011 16:19 ObliviousNA wrote:On November 21 2011 16:09 Yamoth wrote:On November 21 2011 15:59 ObliviousNA wrote:
I go to UCD, and I had class about 30 yards from the quad on the day in question. At about 1pm, ~200 people came screaming through Wellman hall chanting "WE ARE THE 99%". They opened every door on the floor, banging and yelling all the way through. As a paying student (who wasn't paying much attention to database class, but thats not the point) I was very annoyed at the lot of them. What do they think they're accomplishing by alienating the student base?
Anyway, just wanted to throw my two cents in for why they were asked to disperse. Apart from inadequate restroom facilities to house the campers, they were disturbing a lot of paying students. They were asked (multiple times the day before and the day of) to pack their stuff up, but they refused. The cops were called in, and the rest is history. Pepper spray seems like the easiest method honestly. If the cops tried to pull them apart forcefully, limbs could have easily been broken in the scuffle.
It was an unfortunate ending to the situation, but the protesters were definitely just out for their 15 minutes of fame to bring attention to their cause. Except there were no scuffle, at least from what i've red. If there were any kind of scuffle, macing the protester would totally be acceptable. Second, I am pretty sure no one is disputing that the officer don't have to right to arrest the student. We mainly argue that the macing was over the top, even if it is the easiest and cause less harm than other more extreme method. If A) the officers have "the right to arrest the student" and B) "it is the easiest and cause less harm than other more extreme method" ... how do you propose they proceed then? cops can't negotiate with protesters, they're clearly not in a position to talk about tuition hikes. they were informed of a group of people breaking the law, they went to intervene and 20 people refused arrest while hundreds of supporters were surrounding and screaming. ANY broken bone or forcible arrest would have resulted in MUCH more bad press than this. Or worse, a riot. I just think there's a logical chain of events that led up to the "brutal" video (with 100s of cameras watching them, you don't think the police did EVERYTHING by the book?) and we shouldn't jump to demonize the cops that did it. I don't think there's any point where the cops decided to be amoral, but many people seem to be quick to call police brutality. My argument is that while is it the easiest method and cause less harm than more extreme but equally easy method out there, there are other more tedious method that would of cause much less harm to the protester. The police should of either continue to make arrest one at a time like they were doing before they draw a huge crowd or back off. My argument is that the protester wasn't kicking, failing or really doing anything other than being a dead weight that would cause them or the officer any harm when they do get arrested. Sure they were making the officer job a whole lot harder (which is exactly the point), but no one wasn't in immediate danger of getting hurt. Since there were no immediate danger toward the protester or the officer, macing was totally unnecessary. Further, if what the police officer did was truly "by the book", I would then argue that "the book" need to be rewritten. Your view of this situation is terribly one-sided. You really need to live a day in a cops world.... your statements are completely ignorant to their predicament. I get that you feel bad and don't like "the book", but it's really written that way for a reason -- cops want to live at the end of the day. It's much safer to take drastic measures first to quash resistance than to risk escalating powder-keg situations like this. The book is this way for a reason. This isn't a "police brutality" situation. The students should have known that the likely reaction of refusing riot police would be A.) Tasers, B.) Tear Gas, or C.) Pepper Spray. You claim that a lack of "immediate danger" means they should not take preventative measures... I bet the kids of those cops would be unhappy with that as the working protocol. You exponentially increase the chance for something to happen to the cops when you don't allow them to take preventative measures as they deem neccessarry. If they feel threatened by the situation (remember, there were hundreds of hostile students there, not just these 20 or so), they should be allowed to take the steps they deem necessary to keep the situation safe, particularly if it involves non-lethal, non-damaging methods. The questionable judgment in my mind is the chancellor feeling the need to evict them. But once they were asked to leave, they should have complied. They knew what the risks were; any American knows what police in riot gear means.... stay away. By staying in the vicinity, you risk things such as being doused in tear gas or pepper spray or similar things, even if it is not you being the disruptive individual. Let's just be thankful this didn't devolve into a riot or worse. And for better or worse, the actions taken by the police prevented it from escalating.
As previously posted wikipedia link states pepper spray is not completely benign.
I don't understand why police don't go up to individual protesters and tell them that they will be pulled from the others and arrested, then pull them away one-by-one, if protestors throw punches, etc. then you can use more violent methods, but my guess is that they wouldn't.
going to repost this link from RosaParksStoleMySeat:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1332957.html
in this case protesters used metal cuffs to link themselves together and police used pepper spray on them. The court found it to be excessive to use it as the police had previously used grinders to remove the metal cuffs safely.
"Beginning in the fall of 1997, defendants began using olesoresin capsicum aerosol (“OC” or “pepper spray”) to cause the protestors to release themselves from the “black bears.” The use of pepper spray under these circumstances was entirely unprecedented: in California, its use was “limited to controlling hostile or violent subjects” and it had never been used in Humboldt County, the State of California, or anywhere in the country against nonviolent protestors."
Unless something has changed since 1997 this is fairly rare and not by the book.
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On November 21 2011 19:11 Remfire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 13:51 AlmightyJoker wrote:
seems appropriate to me. police told students to move, they didn't, police used non violent measures to remove them. too many of these OWS protesters are just DYING for the police to do anything just so they can all start screaming and crying about police brutality, as if police are part of the (vaguely defined) problem they are protesting. the police are just doing their jobs. i bet almost every single officer would rather be doing his normal job, patrolling and what not rather than have to forcibly remove these idiots. agreed these people are not doing any good what so ever they would rather rebel then work to better there life. they want it all the good life but refuse to work for it.
yeah they're totally just lazy and want everything handed to them. just like that dr king guy
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Canada11349 Posts
@The Toast
While it's great that the system works for many people, the fact that there is low voter turn-out in addition to protests, it seems that people are unhappy with how the system functions. Furthermore, you may not see the immediate use of protests, but I certainly see them at the very least as an important safety valve. Without it, you are pushing a lot of the issues underground and when they do arise, the outpouring could be far more violent. Violently suppressing it and Gingerich's derisive 'let them eat cake/ go home and take a bath' just makes things worse.
Protests do push the public discourse to start speaking about what the protests are about, even it is a negation of the protest. But at best, consistent protests can push politicians to ammend positions. Perhaps not enough for the protestors, but enough to stem it.
But what I don't understand is how people wish for protests do be this quiet little thing that when that government says stand, they stand; when the government says sit, they sit; and when the government says go home, they all go home. Protests are by their nature disruptive. And if it's peaceful disruption, there is no cause to escalate it to violent disruption with asymmetrical use of force. Remove them from where they are being disruptive and let's not have this 'they deserve to be pepper sprayed.' That's crowd control and there was nothing that needed controlling at the time- just removal.
Edit.
In addition, as the Chancellor (who set the police on the students in the first place) is backing away from the police actions, I'm not sure the police actions need to be defended. 2 police on admin leave for all the good that is...
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I'm always surprised by the messages from these protests. These students are always complaining about tuition yet they never seem to complain about all the goshdarn waste in the system.
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What happens when the Police loses all authority because they have no means available to break up situations like this without being called out in the media, and people get more and more obnoxious because they know the police cant do anything ?
What if somebody someday get hurt or killed because a policeman hesitates to use his pepper spray or baton because he is afraid of the consequences ?
also have anyone of you guys even tryed getting pepper sprayed, yes it hurts and you will probably vomit if its point blank. But you dont die from it. Its a non violent way to solve problems like this.
Cut the police some slack they put their own life on the line to protect people often. But this is also part of their job, if they get told to break a demonstration up they have to do it. They dont deserve this hate.
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This is great. No one got serious injuries and we have a really good chance that a bunch of fuckers who forgot who they're working for will lose the ability to abuse the power we bestowed them.
@ElementEighty, I have the right to self defense and safety. In the case that I perceive a threat on my life by your blog post, which clearly disagrees with my opinion and my overwhelming desire for freedom, I am clearly justified in violently assaulting you. Because it might just preempt your violence against me. Don't pretend that macing people isn't violent assault. By that logic, I could kick you in the balls and you'll be fine in a week.
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god i hope the cop who sprayed them gets fucking assassinated
fuck these COPS this enrages me. i live about 40 min from UCD, in Sacramento.
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On November 21 2011 19:05 zobz wrote:
These protesters should not be confused with being "peaceful". They are merely non-violently violating the rights of other people, specifically the owners of the campus. No such violation is an act of peace.
wow
a huge F you to you. the owners of the campus? This is a paid-for-by-taxpayers public UNIVERSITY. Police are ABUSING THEIR POWER so fucking much in our country.
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If a cop tell you you're under arrest you should comply, i think it's an offense to resist arrest. BUT using the pepper spray is not justified... why not just man handle the kids
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These protests are impotent "activism". Nothing's going to change until people start setting things on fire. Not that I necessarily encourage that, but if you want change... people with power don't give it up easily.
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I think whole occupy movement is pretty absurd... and in all honesty, I had absolutely no time to protest, let alone for days, while I was in college.... I think they need to do what they are actually there to to, study :/
And furthermore, I am willing to bet that most of those protestors will not even be paying tuition in 2015-2016 so its even more ridiculous. People have started to occupy whatever they feel is upsetting at the moment, I condone the pepper-spraying of idiots protesting silly things.
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This looks stupid, pepper spray should only be used against someone violent. They will have to force them to move after it anyways, so I don't see any excuse for using it.
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I think this is a good point.
"What happens when the Police loses all authority because they have no means available to break up situations like this without being called out in the media, and people get more and more obnoxious because they know the police cant do anything ?"
I think as normal citizens we need to review what are the suitable venues of action when facing higher authority. I feel there is a misconception that the average individual can get away with anything as long as it does not constitute violence or outright crime.
This is wrong. Know your place.
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On November 21 2011 23:07 fluidin wrote:
I think this is a good point.
"What happens when the Police loses all authority because they have no means available to break up situations like this without being called out in the media, and people get more and more obnoxious because they know the police cant do anything ?"
I think as normal citizens we need to review what are the suitable venues of action when facing higher authority. I feel there is a misconception that the average individual can get away with anything as long as it does not constitute violence or outright crime.
This is wrong. Know your place.
No. If it's not a crime then the individual SHOULD be able to do it. Anything else is just a matter of expression.
The police has the power to make arrest and use the necessary force to do so. All the uproar has been with videos of police brutality, not police arrests. If the student resist arrest, then that's a charge altogether different from the original one according to the American legal system. Violently resisting arrest should then be met with only the necessary force. What we see time and again is peaceful protesting being met with violence in one form or another. That's not police showing their helplessness, it's police showing the abuse of their powers.
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You people in this thread, stop fucking commenting without watching the videos/reading the appropriate articles. Did you even see what happened?
The police acted disgustingly and the chancellor should definitely resign.
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EPT
