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I say ask nicely to check with an RA to see if you are allowed to refuse. I have no F the police sentiment, but I agree with the majority here that I do not want anyone going through my stuff. I am a criminal justice major and 2 court cases that could help this issue are New Jersey v. T.L.O. and Connecticut v. Mooney
NJ vs TLO basically states that schools can check your belongings (such as backpacks or purses) WITH probable cause, not just on a whim. PC is pretty easy to get though so I wouldn't argue too far on that. This might be what they use to get in. And if so, I would let them search.
CT vs Mooney is better for you because it negates the whole you don't own the room argument. Mooney was a homeless man living in a public park. Cops walked up to him, searched his stuff despite him objecting, found a gun. Supreme Court ruled it illegal search and seizure because the area he was "living in" even as a homeless man was considered HIS living space. Thus they said, cops needed a warrant.
All in all, I would ask for an RA to be with them and have the RA tell me that they did not need a warrant to search my place. Don't be too hostile, but don't let them walk all over you. Remember it is on them to prove that you need to be searched, not yours' to prove you aren't hiding anything.
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On November 20 2011 10:52 JohnBiolante wrote:
I say ask nicely to check with an RA to see if you are allowed to refuse. I have no F the police sentiment, but I agree with the majority here that I do not want anyone going through my stuff. I am a criminal justice major and 2 court cases that could help this issue are New Jersey v. T.L.O. and Connecticut v. Mooney
NJ vs TLO basically states that schools can check your belongings (such as backpacks or purses) WITH probability cause, not just on a whim. PC is pretty easy to get though so I wouldn't argue too far on that. This might be what they use to get in. And if so, I would let them search.
CT vs Mooney is better for you because it negates the whole you don't own the room argument. Mooney was a homeless man living in a public park. Cops walked up to him, searched his stuff despite him objecting, found a gun. Supreme Court ruled it illegal search and seizure because the area he was "living in" even as a homeless man was considered HIS living space. Thus they said, cops needed a warrant.
All in all, I would ask for an RA to be with them and have the RA tell me that they did not need a warrant to search my place. Don't be too hostile, but don't let them walk all over you. Remember it is on them to prove that you need to be searched, not yours' to prove you aren't hiding anything.
This is definitely interesting, and asking politely to consult an RA first is probably a reasonable course of action.
I'd like to say that CT v Mooney likely doesn't apply. People are arguing that you don't own the room, so it can be searched. This is obviously not correct, both because of the case you site, and the simple fact that this sort of thing doesn't apply to other rented properties. The issue is that most schools force you to wave any right to deny a search when you sign the rental agreement, which has nothing to do with either case.
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A contract cannot negate or circumvent civil rights.
However, the contract can offer penalties for failing to comply with conditions of a particular contract. One could argue or sue over punitive measures if a condition of a contract which was breached (and cause for punitive measures) would also be in violation of a civil rights.
So, you could disallow the police access to your personal living space, however you would face whatever punishment is written into the contract for doing so, if such a provision was in place.
Lastly, and most likely, because there are shared common areas in the dormitory, it is possible that laws dictate that the space may or may not be subject to the same laws as a standard apartment or residential home.
Then, to make matters worse, different states and provinces all have different standards of law, and then the US and Canada both have different federal laws regarding anti-terrorism etc etc.. so its a damn nightmare to research privately.
Talk to your schools student body rep' and see what you can do, cannot do, etc. Read your tenancy agreement, and check if it is in compliance with local, state and federal law.
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I was blasting music loud one night, and when the cops showed up they thought they just had the right to walk into my house without asking me first, so I quickly shut them down and told them wtf was going to happen. Know your rights man.
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I dunno about dorms, but you can and should always refuse to let a cop search your car. Even if you have nothing to hide. It's always worked for me, even when I actually did have things to hide 
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On November 20 2011 11:01 Omnipresent wrote:
This is definitely interesting, and asking politely to consult an RA first is probably a reasonable course of action.
I'd like to say that CT v Mooney likely doesn't apply. People are arguing that you don't own the room, so it can be searched. This is obviously not correct, both because of the case you site, and the simple fact that this sort of thing doesn't apply to other rented properties. The issue is that most schools force you to wave any right to deny a search when you sign the rental agreement, which has nothing to do with either case.
I agree with you. But just because you sign a sheet of paper doesn't mean it will hold up in a court.
I hope I don't come off as trying to be aggressive or say something like "I'm right, you're wrong." I'm just trying to stimulate some discussion
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On November 20 2011 06:51 Mity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote:
What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? Whoa whoa whoa, you just blew my mind.
That sometimes happen in China. Happened to a few friends of mine. Cops knock at the door saying they know people here have been smoking/selling weed. Cops give a huge fine,a few thousand dollars, but when one is a foreigner caught with quite a lot of weed at home by people looking like cops, you don't dare to question anything, so you stfu and pay.
Turns out they were fake cops, and this was a big scam thought by an asshole who knew there were foreigners smoking pot and that they would pay a huge fine as soon as they would see cops without any question.
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I haven't studied anything like this yet but I know there are clauses in contracts that attempt to waive inalienable rights but can't. Sorry, to explain it better: Just because it's in the contract doesn't make it valid. For example there are employment contracts that force people to waive their right to a civil lawsuit in favor of forced arbitration, but the clause itself is unconstitutional. Whether or not a clause waiving your right to privacy is unconstitutional I don't know, and it may take expensive litigation to find out.
The point of my stupid and really-not-helpful diatribe is to agree with most of the previous posters - ask if you can get the RA first, be polite, and try to find a middle ground. The general rule is that private property can't be searched without "reasonable cause" or something similar so you should be protected against random searches.
EDIT: In reference to the "you don't own the room", technically a dorm contract is a landlord/tenant relationship, which means the tenant gets important rights (right to exclude, right to use)(don't get the right to destroy or the right to sell/transfer) to the property for as long as the contract stipulates/the tenant doesn't breach it. The fact that you don't own the deed to the property doesn't mean you don't get the vast majority of the property rights associated with it, and beyond that a lot of the rights in question are personal rights, not property.
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Vindicate, I agree with a lot you say in your post.
One point to consider, and I am not sure if the same applies in most provinces or states, but in a case in Ontario where an individual rents a room, and shares common areas with the landlord (kitchen, living room/family room, bathroom) law governing residential landlord tenant does not not apply, and as such, is not protect by it. I still think that the tenant (used for discussions sake) still would be in the right to withhold a police search without a warrant, but the tenant could not stop being evicted if the landlord so felt, even if indiscriminately.
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On November 20 2011 10:48 Valestrum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote:
What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? I must be paranoid, but I thought the exact same thing, haha.
That is not being paranoid at all actually. The second largest known incident of spree killing was carried out by a disgruntled South Korean police officer, leaving 57 dead with 35 injured.
+ Show Spoiler +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon#Uiryeong_massacre
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On November 20 2011 12:55 Amlitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 10:48 Valestrum wrote:On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote:
What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? I must be paranoid, but I thought the exact same thing, haha. That is not being paranoid at all actually. The second largest known incident of spree killing was carried out by a disgruntled South Korean police officer, leaving 57 dead with 35 injured. + Show Spoiler +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon#Uiryeong_massacre
Instantly thinking of something like this when police come to your door is the definition of paranoia.
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You won't get in trouble for saying no. Just say no, and if they say you have to, then don't obstruct them and let them. If they are asking you a question, you can say no. If the police don't need to ask, they won't. Thats at least in the US.
But what most people have noted that you probably have no right to privacy in your dorm room is probably correct. Dorms aren't necessarily under the same rules as a rented apartment.
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On November 20 2011 12:59 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 12:55 Amlitzer wrote:On November 20 2011 10:48 Valestrum wrote:On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote:
What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? I must be paranoid, but I thought the exact same thing, haha. That is not being paranoid at all actually. The second largest known incident of spree killing was carried out by a disgruntled South Korean police officer, leaving 57 dead with 35 injured. + Show Spoiler +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon#Uiryeong_massacre Instantly thinking of something like this when police come to your door is the definition of paranoia.
Paranoia is nothing more than the lack of ignorance.
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I've been an RA for 3 years now so this is what I know from my experience. You DO have the right to refuse to let them search your room, but it's not difficult for them to get search warrants on the grounds of whatever brought to your room in the first place. Also, if you make them go through the process of getting a warrant they will tear your room apart and you run the risk of being busted for anything that might not break the law, but school policy (happened to my friend last semester and he was restricted from the dorms for 6 months). If you don't have anything to hide it's better to just let them poke their heads in and then leave. On a side note, if you have a roommate and one of you isn't there, they can't obviously can't get permission from the person who isn't there, so you don't have to worry about anything your roommate might have, or them searching your stuff if you're not there.
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On November 20 2011 13:35 HyRuul wrote:
On a side note, if you have a roommate and one of you isn't there, they can't obviously can't get permission from the person who isn't there, so you don't have to worry about anything your roommate might have, or them searching your stuff if you're not there.
That's not true unfortunately. If a friend or roommate lets a cop into your house, and he sees soemthing of yours you can still get in trouble.
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I think they need a warrant, but check your contract to find out for sure. Honestly I am of the opinion of "If I have nothing to hide, I should just let them search me." Its just a bigger pain in the ass later and not worth it in my opinion.
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On November 20 2011 13:48 Pawsom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:35 HyRuul wrote:
On a side note, if you have a roommate and one of you isn't there, they can't obviously can't get permission from the person who isn't there, so you don't have to worry about anything your roommate might have, or them searching your stuff if you're not there. That's not true unfortunately. If a friend or roommate lets a cop into your house, and he sees soemthing of yours you can still get in trouble.
Well I mean, they can't go through your belongings. If something is out in the open, it's fair game, and they would most likely notice it with or without a warrant.
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On November 20 2011 13:51 HyRuul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:48 Pawsom wrote:On November 20 2011 13:35 HyRuul wrote:
On a side note, if you have a roommate and one of you isn't there, they can't obviously can't get permission from the person who isn't there, so you don't have to worry about anything your roommate might have, or them searching your stuff if you're not there. That's not true unfortunately. If a friend or roommate lets a cop into your house, and he sees soemthing of yours you can still get in trouble. Well I mean, they can't go through your belongings. If something is out in the open, it's fair game, and they would most likely notice it with or without a warrant.
thats not actually true for apartments/rented out rooms.
If someone who lives there gives them permission to search when they do not have a warrant then they can look for whatever they want.
If they have a warrant and it specifically says which person/rooms/areas they are searching then they are confined to that, but if they are voluntarily let in they can look at what they want, that is if your roomate says 'go ahead and look around'.
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On November 20 2011 13:49 FoeHamr wrote:
I think they need a warrant, but check your contract to find out for sure. Honestly I am of the opinion of "If I have nothing to hide, I should just let them search me." Its just a bigger pain in the ass later and not worth it in my opinion.
What if you have something to hide?
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If they ask for your permission, that means they need it. Otherwise they wouldnt ask. They would just tell you they are searching your room.
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EPT
