EPTSaying no to a dorm search by the cops, ok or no?
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Scv4life
United States8 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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Fealthas
607 Posts
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
You'd be suprised at some of the fine print included in them. | ||
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SinisterR
Ireland57 Posts
EDIT: What the guy above me said. | ||
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
For instance, when I was in the dorms, my roommate moved out. The day after, they came in when I wasn't there, and took a bunch of pictures (to validate that the room had "appropriate living space" [ie my shit wasn't on his side]). | ||
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schmeebs
United States115 Posts
You can't get in trouble for telling the cops they need a warrant to search your belongings, they either will get a warrant or will have something else explaining why they don;'t need to (your dorms RA or something like that.) | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
Most universities include a clause that requires you to allow campus or local police to search your room for any reason at any time. A lot of them even do it for univeristy owned apartments that they rent to students. Always read your contract. | ||
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Scv4life
United States8 Posts
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Stress
United States980 Posts
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Skuller
United States197 Posts
Even if its your right to refuse the search (which I don't think it is, but I could be wrong), it helps to have a person of authority (RA or even better, the RHD) present to back you up. Politeness goes a long way. Compare "No I will not let you search my dorm because it is my right to privacy", to "I would like to refuse this search. Hold on let me quickly grab my RA or RHD to see if I actually can do that." The first response is offensive, (forces the police to either a defensive or counter offensive mindset), whereas the second one is more neutral. Anyway, good luck in finding your answer. | ||
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tonning
Norway111 Posts
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
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Mity
Canada50 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote: What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? Whoa whoa whoa, you just blew my mind. | ||
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Phailol
United States84 Posts
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tonning
Norway111 Posts
Think i've watched to many movies :o Did they have a police ID or something? | ||
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
(at least im pretty sure about that for germany dont know how it is in the mighty law system (lol) of the USA) | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
1) Residence halls are exempt from giving notice about entering dorms. Essentially the law reads that the hall staff can come in whenever they want, and the hall will reserve those rights to protect your privacy. 2)Campus Police cannot enter your space without a warrent, though often if you say "not without a warrent" they will either a) Have the hall staff do it, and then charge you through the campus conduct office or b) Call a judge, have the RA's deputized over the phone, and then come into your space. Know your Rights! | ||
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Son of Gnome
United States777 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
i think what you are actually asking is "can they search my dorm without my consent?" the answer is no unless there is something in the agreement between you and the dorm that allows it (i.e., you gave consent at the time you agreed to move into the dorm). there may be some law negating that consent, but i am not going to look for it at this point. ;-) | ||
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CoolSea
United States236 Posts
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adacan
United States117 Posts
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:58 adacan wrote: I hate the nothing to hide argument, it should be the burden of proof on cops to prove they need to search you. Whatever happened to the right to privacy? We have that right. But public universities are funded by the govt, and the dorm isn't really your home, only you renting it out. | ||
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LaSt)ChAnCe
United States2179 Posts
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:53 Disarm22 wrote: thats a tough one because technically you do not own the dorm and it is not your property so the warrant issue might not take effect. school contract might say you cannot deny a search. I would check with your school. Try talking to a trusted teacher or councilor. This doens't matter. You don't technically own an apartment (well most people don't), but you have the right to deny a search without a warrant. The rest is true. You shouldn't need to go far to find out where you stand. The university almost certainly gave you a copy of your housing contract when you signed it, and I'd bet cash-money there's a copy of it on the school's website. On November 20 2011 06:53 cgrinker wrote: When we would enter spaces at my college there are two components: 1) Residence halls are exempt from giving notice about entering dorms. Essentially the law reads that the hall staff can come in whenever they want, and the hall will reserve those rights to protect your privacy. 2)Campus Police cannot enter your space without a warrent, though often if you say "not without a warrent" they will either a) Have the hall staff do it, and then charge you through the campus conduct office or b) Call a judge, have the RA's deputized over the phone, and then come into your space. Know your Rights! I know for a fact that this was not the case at my university. Hall staff, RAs, or apartment managers were often present for a search, but usually only because they called the police to begin with. The police themselves had the right to enter at will, as dictated by my housing contract. It will vary on a case-by-case basis. Check the contract. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:58 adacan wrote: I hate the nothing to hide argument, it should be the burden of proof on cops to prove they need to search you. Whatever happened to the right to privacy? unless you consent before the search (e.g., in the dorm contract or when the cops act) or some other exception applies (e.g., your roommate consents, it is a public place, etc.), the police do have the burden (i.e., probable cause) before they can search you. your right to privacy has to be balanced by the necessity of conducting police searches. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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Scv4life
United States8 Posts
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
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Kuja
United States1759 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
You should always ask why they want to come in and if you can be helpful in any way that doesn't involve a violation of your privacy, because they are usually not investigating for your benefit (they're probably looking for drugs) and anything that looks wrong or out of place will be used against you. Your rights depend on the school, although most public schools should have respectful student bill of rights. At a private institution you're viewed more of as a renter and it's the landlord's right to inspect the apartment (although actual leases will discuss what & when are appropriate for those inspections). Most schools have a school-uniformed police force that either works in conjunction with local police, or potentially has exclusive jurisdiction if it's private property. If local police come onto campus and try to inspect dorms, it is highly likely that they are doing so without the permission of your campus police. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:42 SinisterR wrote: Isn't a University a public place (by law)? Think there may be different conditions then. Other than that I don't see any reason to reject if you're not doing anything else or if you've got nothing to hide. EDIT: What the guy above me said. The university is a public place but a dorm room is not. If police don't have a damn good reason to enter your home then do not let them in. Don't be naive like the fool who wrote: "Other than that I don't see any reason to reject if you're not doing anything else or if you've got nothing to hide." If a friend of yours stashed drugs in your dorm room, then your in as much shit as him and the burden of proof is on you to prove you didn't know anything about it. NOTHING good can come from letting police in your home unless they have a damn good reason. DO NOT LET THEM IN. | ||
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kef
283 Posts
To be honest I had all sorts of "contraband" in my room but my defense (the best defense I'd say) was that my roommate and I were friends with all the RA's so they never looked that hard in our room. | ||
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cmen15
United States1519 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
If there is a university official there, it's their property, they can search it whenever they want almost. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On November 20 2011 07:44 Fenrax wrote: Interesting to read about that in the comments. I didnt know that contracts that allow the police or campus police to look at your room whenever they want are legal in the USA. Doesn't that go against a person's fundamental rights? Like inviolability of the home or property? the patriot act? | ||
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below66
United States1761 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:55 CoolSea wrote: Next time, if you feel uncomfortable letting them search your room say no until either they get a warrant or an RA or some other school official says you must let them search your room. This. Always say no, be assertive and forceful in your non-consent, if they really have permission, they will just do it or get the RA to explain that you signed into it upon moving in there. In Miami at least, there's been a real problem with fake cops doing robberies. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:53 cgrinker wrote: When we would enter spaces at my college there are two components: 1) Residence halls are exempt from giving notice about entering dorms. Essentially the law reads that the hall staff can come in whenever they want, and the hall will reserve those rights to protect your privacy. 2)Campus Police cannot enter your space without a warrent, though often if you say "not without a warrent" they will either a) Have the hall staff do it, and then charge you through the campus conduct office or b) Call a judge, have the RA's deputized over the phone, and then come into your space. Know your Rights! Thank you for this post. I was unaware that people living in dorms had that many rights. I assumed all the police would have to do is request permission from the college to enter a dorm. OP: I wouldn't worry too much they were probably just doing their investigation of something unrelated to you. You did the manner thing by letting them do their job so they could get out of your hair. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
If the police want to use some campus regulations to get a university staffer in your room thats fine, but not the police and i would not let that staffer search anything until I knew he had the right to do so - which I doubt he does. He's a f*#@ing staffer. Again, do not let them in, nothing good can come from it, only trouble for you. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I don't know much about that, honestly. It just sounds like China, and not USA. Police can just come to your place and search it for no reason? What is this. My initial feeling would have been that contracts like this should be worth nothing in front of a court. | ||
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Amlitzer
United States471 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:42 forgotten0ne wrote: I can almost guarantee your dorm contract negates that right. They usually allow themselves full permission for search and seizure at their disposal. For instance, when I was in the dorms, my roommate moved out. The day after, they came in when I wasn't there, and took a bunch of pictures (to validate that the room had "appropriate living space" [ie my shit wasn't on his side]). This man is correct. | ||
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indigoawareness
Slovakia273 Posts
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
As was stated by some helpful people earlier in this thread, you may have no right to refuse a dorm room search by police staff who were asked to investigate by the university. Furthermore, you are never allowed to obstruct an officer in the execution of his duty -- so the only resistance you are legally allowed is verbal. If they have what is called "probable cause", they can force their way into your dorm room, even your house/car, and you may never physically stop them. The only thing you can do is deny consent and let them decide if they do want to take it further. Please note that in most cases they have no probable cause and are just asking to get some more information on an ongoing investigation, like in your case. You would never actually get into trouble with either your university or the police for denying consent. Denying consent is one of your rights. Stopping a room search is not. "Know your rights" does not mean "fuck the police, always ask for a warrant, they can't control you man". It means you actually have to inform yourself about what rights you have, and not just post stupid shit on the internet, or believe stupid shit someone else has posted. | ||
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Matsumoto
Germany493 Posts
probably not the smartest move to dress up as a cop and walk around at the university,because you would attract a lot of attention  | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On November 20 2011 08:47 Jinsho wrote: It is amazing how some people attempt a "fuck the police" answer and actually have no idea. As was stated by some helpful people earlier in this thread, you may have no right to refuse a dorm room search by police staff who were asked to investigate by the university. Furthermore, you are never allowed to obstruct an officer in the execution of his duty -- so the only resistance you are legally allowed is verbal. If they have what is called "probable cause", they can force their way into your dorm room, even your house/car, and you may never physically stop them. The only thing you can do is deny consent and let them decide if they do want to take it further. Please note that in most cases they have no probable cause and are just asking to get some more information on an ongoing investigation, like in your case. You would never actually get into trouble with either your university or the police for denying consent. Denying consent is one of your rights. Stopping a room search is not. "Know your rights" does not mean "fuck the police, always ask for a warrant, they can't control you man". It means you actually have to inform yourself about what rights you have, and not just post stupid shit on the internet, or believe stupid shit someone else has posted. It's interesting, because you're wrong (or at least partially wrong). If you're going to be condescending, you might want to check that first. In the US (where the OP is from), the issue of whether you're able to physically stop police from entering your property without probable cause/a warrant is a state's issue. This means some states allow it and others do not. I know this because my state's supreme court recently decided that we cannot. In some places, you can apply physical resistance if the police are trying to conduce an improper or illegal search (though you better be prepared to defend it in court). Further, I don't even know where you got this from, as not one suggested physically preventing them from entering. Also, it's difficult to determine whether police have probable cause. They'll often claim it, and come up with a reason for it later. The part of your post about denying consent vs stopping a search appears to be total word salad. You're basically saying, "you can always deny consent, but if they don't need it they're going to come in anyway." In other words, it's fine to deny consent when it doesn't matter in the first place... While it's true that "know your rights" doesn't mean "fuck the police," I'd also like to note that these ideas are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to both know your rights and say "fuck the police." The police are there to do their job, which sometimes mean they're there to protect you, and sometimes means they're there to screw you. If you think it's the latter, i don't know why you'd make it easier than you have to. Also, most of this goes straight out the window for most dorm searches, as the majority of universities require to wave your right to stop a search in your housing contract. | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
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fatworthlessvirgin
United States34 Posts
Trust me *experience* If you have something REALLY bad in there that you know about then yea just refuse, but for like pot or bongs it's really not a big deal. | ||
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Fallen33
United States596 Posts
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On November 20 2011 10:31 Fallen33 wrote: i'm pretty sure you can say no but they don't need a search warrant; it's property owned by the university and you're merely renting the space. if they needed permission it wouldn't take long for them to call the university itself and get the permission. I think it's still worth it to make them get the warrant or call the university. At the very least it allows you to know they actually are police and not something else. (maybe a bit far fetched but has certainly happened before) | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:39 Scv4life wrote: To make the story short, I was playing some session on bent in my dorm when I heard a knock on the door. When I opened the door two cops showed up and asked if they could search my dorm. When i asked them why, all they gave me was some vague answer like its for a ongoing investigation. I thought I would get in trouble if I refused so I let them search my room. After about 1~2min of looking around they just left. I really don't know whats going on right now or why my room was the only one searched on the floor. So basically what I am asking is: Will I get into any legal trouble for refusing the cops to search by dorm if this happens again? Any input would be greatly appreciated, thnx. No, if the cops ask, ask for a warrant. Do not ever let the cops in unless they have a valid, legal document saying they have permission to search, even if you have nothing to hide. Do not let them in. | ||
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sTsCompleted
United States380 Posts
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Googity
United States127 Posts
Edit: This is also for a public university. Private Uni's could be very different, and your contract would probably lay out what exactly cops are able to do. | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On November 20 2011 10:41 Whitewing wrote: No, if the cops ask, ask for a warrant. Do not ever let the cops in unless they have a valid, legal document saying they have permission to search, even if you have nothing to hide. Do not let them in. 99.99995 of the time, this is the correct thing. At a university, it's different. You need to know ahead of time whether they're allowed in without a warrant (in most cases, they are). Campus police are significantly more likely than normal police to go easy on you if you're nice. If they need a warrant to search your room, tell them they can't enter. If they're allowed in no matter what, you might as well let them in. It sucks, but it's the best chance you have of them not destroying your room, and potentially going easy on you if they find anything. | ||
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Valestrum
United States246 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote: What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? I must be paranoid, but I thought the exact same thing, haha. | ||
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JohnBiolante
26 Posts
NJ vs TLO basically states that schools can check your belongings (such as backpacks or purses) WITH probable cause, not just on a whim. PC is pretty easy to get though so I wouldn't argue too far on that. This might be what they use to get in. And if so, I would let them search. CT vs Mooney is better for you because it negates the whole you don't own the room argument. Mooney was a homeless man living in a public park. Cops walked up to him, searched his stuff despite him objecting, found a gun. Supreme Court ruled it illegal search and seizure because the area he was "living in" even as a homeless man was considered HIS living space. Thus they said, cops needed a warrant. All in all, I would ask for an RA to be with them and have the RA tell me that they did not need a warrant to search my place. Don't be too hostile, but don't let them walk all over you. Remember it is on them to prove that you need to be searched, not yours' to prove you aren't hiding anything. | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On November 20 2011 10:52 JohnBiolante wrote: I say ask nicely to check with an RA to see if you are allowed to refuse. I have no F the police sentiment, but I agree with the majority here that I do not want anyone going through my stuff. I am a criminal justice major and 2 court cases that could help this issue are New Jersey v. T.L.O. and Connecticut v. Mooney NJ vs TLO basically states that schools can check your belongings (such as backpacks or purses) WITH probability cause, not just on a whim. PC is pretty easy to get though so I wouldn't argue too far on that. This might be what they use to get in. And if so, I would let them search. CT vs Mooney is better for you because it negates the whole you don't own the room argument. Mooney was a homeless man living in a public park. Cops walked up to him, searched his stuff despite him objecting, found a gun. Supreme Court ruled it illegal search and seizure because the area he was "living in" even as a homeless man was considered HIS living space. Thus they said, cops needed a warrant. All in all, I would ask for an RA to be with them and have the RA tell me that they did not need a warrant to search my place. Don't be too hostile, but don't let them walk all over you. Remember it is on them to prove that you need to be searched, not yours' to prove you aren't hiding anything. This is definitely interesting, and asking politely to consult an RA first is probably a reasonable course of action. I'd like to say that CT v Mooney likely doesn't apply. People are arguing that you don't own the room, so it can be searched. This is obviously not correct, both because of the case you site, and the simple fact that this sort of thing doesn't apply to other rented properties. The issue is that most schools force you to wave any right to deny a search when you sign the rental agreement, which has nothing to do with either case. | ||
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
However, the contract can offer penalties for failing to comply with conditions of a particular contract. One could argue or sue over punitive measures if a condition of a contract which was breached (and cause for punitive measures) would also be in violation of a civil rights. So, you could disallow the police access to your personal living space, however you would face whatever punishment is written into the contract for doing so, if such a provision was in place. Lastly, and most likely, because there are shared common areas in the dormitory, it is possible that laws dictate that the space may or may not be subject to the same laws as a standard apartment or residential home. Then, to make matters worse, different states and provinces all have different standards of law, and then the US and Canada both have different federal laws regarding anti-terrorism etc etc.. so its a damn nightmare to research privately. Talk to your schools student body rep' and see what you can do, cannot do, etc. Read your tenancy agreement, and check if it is in compliance with local, state and federal law. | ||
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zEMPd
Angola259 Posts
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
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JohnBiolante
26 Posts
On November 20 2011 11:01 Omnipresent wrote: This is definitely interesting, and asking politely to consult an RA first is probably a reasonable course of action. I'd like to say that CT v Mooney likely doesn't apply. People are arguing that you don't own the room, so it can be searched. This is obviously not correct, both because of the case you site, and the simple fact that this sort of thing doesn't apply to other rented properties. The issue is that most schools force you to wave any right to deny a search when you sign the rental agreement, which has nothing to do with either case. I agree with you. But just because you sign a sheet of paper doesn't mean it will hold up in a court. I hope I don't come off as trying to be aggressive or say something like "I'm right, you're wrong." I'm just trying to stimulate some discussion | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
That sometimes happen in China. Happened to a few friends of mine. Cops knock at the door saying they know people here have been smoking/selling weed. Cops give a huge fine,a few thousand dollars, but when one is a foreigner caught with quite a lot of weed at home by people looking like cops, you don't dare to question anything, so you stfu and pay. Turns out they were fake cops, and this was a big scam thought by an asshole who knew there were foreigners smoking pot and that they would pay a huge fine as soon as they would see cops without any question. | ||
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Vindicate
United States169 Posts
The point of my stupid and really-not-helpful diatribe is to agree with most of the previous posters - ask if you can get the RA first, be polite, and try to find a middle ground. The general rule is that private property can't be searched without "reasonable cause" or something similar so you should be protected against random searches. EDIT: In reference to the "you don't own the room", technically a dorm contract is a landlord/tenant relationship, which means the tenant gets important rights (right to exclude, right to use)(don't get the right to destroy or the right to sell/transfer) to the property for as long as the contract stipulates/the tenant doesn't breach it. The fact that you don't own the deed to the property doesn't mean you don't get the vast majority of the property rights associated with it, and beyond that a lot of the rights in question are personal rights, not property. | ||
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
One point to consider, and I am not sure if the same applies in most provinces or states, but in a case in Ontario where an individual rents a room, and shares common areas with the landlord (kitchen, living room/family room, bathroom) law governing residential landlord tenant does not not apply, and as such, is not protect by it. I still think that the tenant (used for discussions sake) still would be in the right to withhold a police search without a warrant, but the tenant could not stop being evicted if the landlord so felt, even if indiscriminately. | ||
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Amlitzer
United States471 Posts
On November 20 2011 10:48 Valestrum wrote: I must be paranoid, but I thought the exact same thing, haha. That is not being paranoid at all actually. The second largest known incident of spree killing was carried out by a disgruntled South Korean police officer, leaving 57 dead with 35 injured. + Show Spoiler + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon#Uiryeong_massacre | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On November 20 2011 12:55 Amlitzer wrote: That is not being paranoid at all actually. The second largest known incident of spree killing was carried out by a disgruntled South Korean police officer, leaving 57 dead with 35 injured. + Show Spoiler + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon#Uiryeong_massacre Instantly thinking of something like this when police come to your door is the definition of paranoia. | ||
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Dante_A_
United States161 Posts
But what most people have noted that you probably have no right to privacy in your dorm room is probably correct. Dorms aren't necessarily under the same rules as a rented apartment. | ||
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Amlitzer
United States471 Posts
On November 20 2011 12:59 Omnipresent wrote: Instantly thinking of something like this when police come to your door is the definition of paranoia. Paranoia is nothing more than the lack of ignorance. | ||
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HyRuul
3 Posts
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Pawsom
United States928 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:35 HyRuul wrote: On a side note, if you have a roommate and one of you isn't there, they can't obviously can't get permission from the person who isn't there, so you don't have to worry about anything your roommate might have, or them searching your stuff if you're not there. That's not true unfortunately. If a friend or roommate lets a cop into your house, and he sees soemthing of yours you can still get in trouble. | ||
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
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HyRuul
3 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:48 Pawsom wrote: That's not true unfortunately. If a friend or roommate lets a cop into your house, and he sees soemthing of yours you can still get in trouble. Well I mean, they can't go through your belongings. If something is out in the open, it's fair game, and they would most likely notice it with or without a warrant. | ||
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schmeebs
United States115 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:51 HyRuul wrote: Well I mean, they can't go through your belongings. If something is out in the open, it's fair game, and they would most likely notice it with or without a warrant. thats not actually true for apartments/rented out rooms. If someone who lives there gives them permission to search when they do not have a warrant then they can look for whatever they want. If they have a warrant and it specifically says which person/rooms/areas they are searching then they are confined to that, but if they are voluntarily let in they can look at what they want, that is if your roomate says 'go ahead and look around'. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:49 FoeHamr wrote: I think they need a warrant, but check your contract to find out for sure. Honestly I am of the opinion of "If I have nothing to hide, I should just let them search me." Its just a bigger pain in the ass later and not worth it in my opinion. What if you have something to hide? | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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HyRuul
3 Posts
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julianto
2292 Posts
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Chaves
Brazil315 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:40 Sfydjklm wrote: movies taught me to always ask for a warrant Im with you brother!! | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
Nothing good can come of it from your end by granting them access. If they didn't need to get your permission, believe me they wouldn't, they would just bust your door down and shoot your dog if it barked at them. If they find something, they're not going to give you a break because you "let them in". Police like to bust people..... they like to have cool stories, and sometimes they like busting heads. They can really only hurt you in that situation.... the only good ending for you is them going away. There's no good citizen reward. If police are going to be mindless drones and give you vague explanations, don't just let them search your stuff. Be nice about it, but be direct about the fact that you "can't give them permission to search your home". Once they have permission, the degree to which they can search is open to question and they may decide to be far more intrusive than you first had thought. Once permission is given though, its dubious to what extent that goes. You can't give them a time limit. Giving up that power over your home and/or possessions never makes sense. You don't know the cop, how can you trust him with that power? This goes for whether you have anything shady going on or not. TL;DR Cops aren't your superiors and you don't have to submit to random people's requests, even if they are police officers. You shouldn't trust the cops to search your stuff, you don't know who they are or their motivations. | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
Ask to see their badge/ID. Usually with Dorms/Apartments, it's generally the person who owns the actual dorm/apartment that has the permission to give the Police the affirmative head nod to do searches. If they have willing consent, than a warrant is not needed. + Show Spoiler + Next time have the strength to say NO. Nothing good can come of it from your end by granting them access. If they didn't need to get your permission, believe me they wouldn't, they would just bust your door down and shoot your dog if it barked at them. If they find something, they're not going to give you a break because you "let them in". Police like to bust people..... they like to have cool stories, and sometimes they like busting heads. They can really only hurt you in that situation.... the only good ending for you is them going away. There's no good citizen reward. If police are going to be mindless drones and give you vague explanations, don't just let them search your stuff. Be nice about it, but be direct about the fact that you "can't give them permission to search your home". Once they have permission, the degree to which they can search is open to question and they may decide to be far more intrusive than you first had thought. Once permission is given though, its dubious to what extent that goes. You can't give them a time limit. Giving up that power over your home and/or possessions never makes sense. You don't know the cop, how can you trust him with that power? This goes for whether you have anything shady going on or not. TL;DR Cops aren't your superiors and you don't have to submit to random people's requests, even if they are police officers. You shouldn't trust the cops to search your stuff, you don't know who they are or their motivations. And that quote is most certainly not true. | ||
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ICarrotU
United States254 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:43 schmeebs wrote: If they ask in the first place then they don't need a warrant, even if your dorm agreement says you can be searched it would have to be by campus police most of the time in which case they would have some proof as to what the investigation is. You can't get in trouble for telling the cops they need a warrant to search your belongings, they either will get a warrant or will have something else explaining why they don;'t need to (your dorms RA or something like that.) Just because they ask you doesn't mean they don't need a warrent, it's actually the opposite generally. | ||
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Owl
145 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:48 dsousa wrote: Next time have the strength to say NO. Nothing good can come of it from your end by granting them access. If they didn't need to get your permission, believe me they wouldn't, they would just bust your door down and shoot your dog if it barked at them. If they find something, they're not going to give you a break because you "let them in". Police like to bust people..... they like to have cool stories, and sometimes they like busting heads. They can really only hurt you in that situation.... the only good ending for you is them going away. There's no good citizen reward. If police are going to be mindless drones and give you vague explanations, don't just let them search your stuff. Be nice about it, but be direct about the fact that you "can't give them permission to search your home". Once they have permission, the degree to which they can search is open to question and they may decide to be far more intrusive than you first had thought. Once permission is given though, its dubious to what extent that goes. You can't give them a time limit. Giving up that power over your home and/or possessions never makes sense. You don't know the cop, how can you trust him with that power? This goes for whether you have anything shady going on or not. TL;DR Cops aren't your superiors and you don't have to submit to random people's requests, even if they are police officers. You shouldn't trust the cops to search your stuff, you don't know who they are or their motivations. If it's college staff, GG no re. If it's LEO, see below. Let me edit this: http://counsel.cua.edu/studlife/publications/dormsearch.cfm Case law to back this shit up. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:15 julianto wrote: When you're asking to see the warrant, what specifically should you be looking for? It needs to be accurate in location, generally has time restrictions, and a summary of what they are looking for (usually specific). If its not the right location, go point that out. If the other stuff is wrong, keep your copy, keep your mouth shut, let em search and get it all tossed in court. // this is all beyond making sure they actually have one. | ||
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TheBomb
237 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:39 Scv4life wrote: To make the story short, I was playing some session on bent in my dorm when I heard a knock on the door. When I opened the door two cops showed up and asked if they could search my dorm. When i asked them why, all they gave me was some vague answer like its for a ongoing investigation. I thought I would get in trouble if I refused so I let them search my room. After about 1~2min of looking around they just left. I really don't know whats going on right now or why my room was the only one searched on the floor. So basically what I am asking is: Will I get into any legal trouble for refusing the cops to search by dorm if this happens again? Any input would be greatly appreciated, thnx. No you won't get in trouble. And to all the smarties saying find out what the form says, it doesn't matter. They can't search any premises where you live or stay without a warrant because its a violation of YOUR privacy. Unless you live on the street or a public office where there is no perception of privacy they can't search you without a warrant and I would not let them search. | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
Long story short, your dorm room isn't your property, so the laws surrounding search and seizure don't apply. | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
On November 20 2011 15:53 TheBomb wrote: No you won't get in trouble. And to all the smarties saying find out what the form says, it doesn't matter. They can't search any premises where you live or stay without a warrant because its a violation of YOUR privacy. Unless you live on the street or a public office where there is no perception of privacy they can't search you without a warrant and I would not let them search. Exactly. A contractual agreement cannot override state housing law. A dorm unit is treated the same as an apartment with all of the same laws. To all of the people saying 'check your contract', you should be saying check your landlord/tenant housing code. | ||
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Gummy
United States2180 Posts
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[Ryuzaki]
22 Posts
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote: What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? Quoting this because sadly this happens too often nowadays. Now fake cops in walking around in a university may be suspicious but that certainly mean it can't happen and that it won't get noticed. Something something Bystander effect (people notice suspicious looking cops but don't bother reporting it because "someone else will" [even though in the end no one does]) and something about fake cops dodging the real security team. Yeah I know this may seem unrealistic but it could happen. Unless you have security guards everywhere in your university (ones who know each other and know when actual cops show up + they question cops if they show up) then something like that could happen. Though outside of university or dorms, you definitely shouldn't let cops without a warrant and without proof they're a cop. Additionally don't mention about being afraid of fake cops (in case they're fake cops - in which case they'll play along). Or maybe not, is it a good idea to mention being worried about fake cops to cops? What if you mention it to fake cops? Might be *dangerous (though encountering fake cops trying to get into your home is always dangerous). *In cases like that they may be afraid their cover is blown and do something reckless. | ||
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TheChostoProject
Mexico96 Posts
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:50 tonning wrote: What if it was fake cops, like thiefs looking at you're dorm room to see if you got something valuable there? Seems like an awfully big risk for trying to peak into someones dorm. :D | ||
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Voldron
Greece91 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
Residence halls are university property. Therefore, the staff have the right to enter a room if they feel university policy is being broken. Usually they will not just "key in" and instead ask to come in after knocking. When I suspected things like alcohol we would never knock because we thought they were drinking - I'd knock because the room was loud and breaking quiet hours policy. If they took longer than 10 seconds to answer the door THEN I'd ask to come in. The only time we ever keyed into a room was when a student with depression had a bad night, got really drunk, yelled at friends, said something about suicide, slammed the door, and then other residents heard a loud bang and a window breaking. Turns out he just slammed his chair on the ground and the pieces broke his window, but my point is that the situation needed to be VERY bad to exercise keying privileges. The police became involved for two reasons with me: the situation was out of the hall director's control OR there was suspected drug activity. There were a couple major drug busts in my time, but I was never involved. I got the potheads! How it worked was we would smell it, call the police, and wait. No knocking, no warning, just waiting and smelling that crap (sometimes for over an hour since campus police are quite busy). The police would arrive and ask to enter. They have no right to enter the space without permission, even if the hall director has the master key right next to them. Most residents would hide their cache and let them in. The cops usually put them through the ringer, but they couldn't search anything that wasn't in plain site. As RA's we would get by that by asking the residents to move things, open refrigerators, open drawers, etc. Police sometimes did that, but mostly tried to scare them. In pot cases the police would eventually leave, most the time leaving the guilty residents scared. From there, they could call the station, draft a search warrant, fax it to a judge for signing, and have another officer drive it over (took about 20 minutes, even at 4am), but I only ever heard of that happening when a bunch of drunk residents were loudly screaming at RA's and Hall Directors since they were caught with alcohol and refused to cooperate with hall staff. After receiving the warrant hall staff unlocked the door and police kicked it in to break the chain lock. In short, you should let hall staff enter your room if they ask. If you have no idea why they're at your front door they'll be in and out before you know it. Same goes for police. If you ARE doing something illegal, specifically underage drinking, then you should definitely deal with the hall staff. If they're knocking on your door you're already busted. Things like underage drinking is illegal and it's infinitely better to go through a hall conduct meeting instead of a police citation. tldr: *Hall staff has the right to enter residence hall space. *You have the decision to let them in or not, but you really should, especially if you have no idea why they're there. *Always ask WHY they want to enter. I personally would not let them in unless I got specifics. Something vague like "drug use", "alcohol", or "weird smells" is sufficient because it shows you their motivation. The fact OP wasn't told tells me they were probably looking for drugs. *Staff and police CANNOT search anything. They CAN ask you to search your own things in front of them. *Police can ONLY search your space independently with a search warrant. They can get these rather quick with probable cause. *Refusing to cooperate with staff or police is an indication that you're hiding something. Special note: Before anyone gets on my case about marijuana in halls - I have nothing against the plant (besides its smell), but I have everything against creating a fire hazard in public living space. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:25 Robinsa wrote: Seems like an awfully big risk for trying to peak into someones dorm. :D This is a big risk. If you have concerns about the police or hall staff there are a few steps. First of all, you should know all the RA's and Hall Directors for your hall. If you don't know them personally you should at least know their face. Pictures are usually posted in public areas (like the hall office). If you have doubts about the police ask for their name and badge number, call the station, and confirm. I've seen a few residents do this without issue. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:06 Mastermind wrote: If they ask for your permission, that means they need it. Otherwise they wouldnt ask. They would just tell you they are searching your room. This isn't true for hall staff. At my old University the policy was that hall staff could enter a room "if they suspected University policy was being broken". When I asked residents to let me in it was a sign of respect. When entering I would always tell them why I asked to come in, usually "I heard loud noises and was going to tell you to quiet down since it's past midnight, but you didn't answer the door, I heard a bunch of people running around. This sounds really bad and I need to do my job and make sure everything is ok." Again, this is a sign of respect because all I was obligated to say was "read your policy book". Police, on the other hand, need permission even if they're accompanied by hall staff (almost always the hall director). | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:19 Servius_Fulvius wrote: The cops usually put them through the ringer, but they couldn't search anything that wasn't in plain site. As RA's we would get by that by asking the residents to move things, open refrigerators, open drawers, etc. Police sometimes did that, but mostly tried to scare them. In pot cases the police would eventually leave, most the time leaving the guilty residents scared. From there, they could call the station, draft a search warrant, fax it to a judge for signing, and have another officer drive it over (took about 20 minutes, even at 4am), but I only ever heard of that happening when a bunch of drunk residents were loudly screaming at RA's and Hall Directors since they were caught with alcohol and refused to cooperate with hall staff. After receiving the warrant hall staff unlocked the door and police kicked it in to break the chain lock. I have a few questions: In the pot case did nothing happen? and what's a ringer? | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On November 21 2011 01:28 JieXian wrote: I have a few questions: In the pot case did nothing happen? and what's a ringer? through the ringer means the cops asked them a bunch of questions and shit. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On November 21 2011 01:28 JieXian wrote: I have a few questions: In the pot case did nothing happen? and what's a ringer? The previous comment was correct, the ringer = cops asked you a bunch of questions. They may ask the same questions in different ways. They're looking for nonverbal communication that reveals guilt. For most of the pot cases the room smelled like marijuana, the residents' eyes were bloodshot, and they usually had a pipe in plain site. They'd be questioned for about an hour in some cases. More than once the male residents would start crying. The more they seemed to be hiding the longer it took. In almost all the pot cases the cops settled with a long period of hard questions, would confiscate pipes since they were defined as "drug paraphernalia" in university policy, and left it at that. This is how the 5 or so pot calls I made ended up. Most times the residents would flush their stash or hide it. After questioning for an hour the officer usually didn't want to pursue a search warrant. Marijuana calls were pretty low priority on the department's priority list. One time during a football game I smelled it and dispatch told me no one could come. I got the feeling most of the responding officers didn't like these calls, so they were usually happy with scaring recreational users. On the other hand, if they were dealing they were pursued pretty hard. Officers in my hall seized an entire vaporizer filled with dime bags. Across campus they took down a dorm room dealer selling cocaine, ecstacy, and marijuana. About the search warrant bit you italicized: that particular incident happened in the hall across the street. One of the RA's involved was a friend of mine. | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On November 20 2011 21:46 Flyingdutchman wrote: Since when do contract clauses nullify constitutional rights? That can never hold up in court over here, I assumed the same for the states Lets think, NDA's prohibit you from speaking freely. Rights can be freely waived, right? you can ignore a miranda warning and talk to the cops if you want. Doesn't mean your right doesn't exist...it means you gave it up voluntarily. You did that when you signed a contract. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:39 Scv4life wrote: To make the story short, I was playing some session on bent in my dorm when I heard a knock on the door. When I opened the door two cops showed up and asked if they could search my dorm. When i asked them why, all they gave me was some vague answer like its for a ongoing investigation. I thought I would get in trouble if I refused so I let them search my room. After about 1~2min of looking around they just left. I really don't know whats going on right now or why my room was the only one searched on the floor. So basically what I am asking is: Will I get into any legal trouble for refusing the cops to search by dorm if this happens again? Any input would be greatly appreciated, thnx. Regardless of wether or not they are legaly allowed to search your dorm, if you have nothing to hide then let them. By dening them they will assume you have something to hide and probably try and find out what that something is, even if it is nothing. Life is alot easier with being hounded by the police. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On November 24 2011 14:29 Orcasgt24 wrote: Regardless of wether or not they are legaly allowed to search your dorm, if you have nothing to hide then let them. By dening them they will assume you have something to hide and probably try and find out what that something is, even if it is nothing. Life is alot easier with being hounded by the police. Terrible advice. If you have nothing to hide just let them search you.... is what many a person said until they found out that some one of their friends stashed something in their room they didn't know about. Same thing with cops searching your car. If you don't have to let them search you, don't let them. If they have a suspicion but no evidence, then they won't bother with a warrant. If they do get a warrant, you lost nothing by exercising your rights. | ||
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:52 Phailol wrote: DO NOT consent to any searches without a warrant. They will NOT respect your property in any way Yeah I've seen this happen quite a number of times | ||
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
On November 20 2011 21:46 Flyingdutchman wrote: Since when do contract clauses nullify constitutional rights? That can never hold up in court over here, I assumed the same for the states I believe we would call this type of contract "unconscionable," or just unconstitutional. I must echo the sentiment to politely decline. The cops are not your friends. However, I have to stress BE RESPECTFUL. I don't have anything against cops. My pastor is a cop, my friends are cops, I work with cops every day, BUT they are not your friends. Any police officer will give you the same advice. Respectfully decline to give permission. They will either oblige and if they are serious they'll get a warrant, etc. If they force their way in and mess up your stuff you will have a valid defense in court. Check out this website. http://www.school-training.com/newsletter/articles/dorm-searches-response.shtml Looks pretty legit and cites case law. Specifically notice: Second, some private institutions have a state authorized police department. In those cases, the police officers on campus will be bound by the Constitution notwithstanding the fact that they are employed by a private entity since they derive their authority from state law. Colleges/Universities may have rules that allow for health/safety exceptions. These inspections, conducted by non-law enforcement personnel and which have no criminal investigation purpose do not violate the 4th Amendment when conducted pursuant to a college/university rule. These searches fall under the auspices of administrative searches which have a much lower threshold than criminal investigation searches. [My note - basically this says that your RA and dorm room staff can search without a warrant, as mentioned previously] Items located and seized by resident assistants may be turned over to law enforcement and may be used in a criminal prosecution. If law enforcement, in any way directs the search, the resident assistants become agents of law enforcement thus requiring that all criminal investigation rules, i.e. warrant, exigency or consent, be met before entry is made, before search is conducted or before items are seized. If law enforcement personnel want to enter the dormitory room they must first meet the criminal investigation requirements of warrant, exigency or consent. However if you go on to read the example at the bottom, it says that a University employee may conduct the search without any guidance from police and that anything they find may be used as evidence. | ||
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