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On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else? Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 10:23 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 05:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 03:57 Millitron wrote:On November 12 2011 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 12 2011 11:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:But anyway, one has to be fucking dumb to even have the idea of privatizing prisons, huhu?
I'm sure you'll come with a twisty reasoning explaining why it's because government is too important, though. It will be tough, but I'm sure you'll make it Saying that it's politicians who make it attractive instead of corporation that corrupt / influence politicians is a good place to start. well it does take two to tango. there's usually a family or personal connection going on at the local level for the construction / maintenance and a union connection since the new jobs will undoubtedly be union jobs. also the state government provides money with little oversight on how the locals spend it, as long as a prison gets built. and then since there's this new concentration of convicts local police start saying they need more money; it builds on itself. you can't end pigs overfeeding at the government trough if the government has the food and the inclination to feed indiscriminately. moderate government's hunger to throw more money at any problem and you're a third of the way to a solution. Funny you don't get it. In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?) In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) Well, it IS partly some Keynesian plot. Building prisons IS an easy way to boost employment. That's not all of it, there are lobbying interests with huge amounts of money to spend on it, but you can't blame ONLY them. Who goes to jail for bribery? It's not only the person paying the bribe; the person accepting it is just as guilty. Do you want me to facepalm to death? France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> much more "keynesian", socialist, or whatever you want than the US France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> prison sector not privatized France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> 0,07% people in jail against 1% in US Conclusion: people are not put in jail to create artificially employment, but because it benefits a for-profit industry. Seriously, just the fact that you can believe something like that leaves me speechless. I agreed with you. I totally agree that lobbying is a big part of it. Its not the whole story though; politicians jump at any chance to spend money, because its an easy way to show the voters that they're involved. Saying ONLY lobbyists are to blame is like only punishing the guy who solicited a hit-man, while letting the hit-man go free. Politicians struggle like hell to pay for social services such as education and health services. They don't even have money to fix your broken and obsolete infrastructures. If you think they spend money just for fun by throwing it in a useless and unproductive industry because people want more taxes, you should maybe stop watching Fox News and get other referents than Glenn Beck. Now, people who have invented and supported this "law and order" shit are precisely the one who have privatized prisons. Namely, the Republicans, under Reagan and afterward.
The thing is though, these broken infrastructures DON'T NEED MORE MONEY, but all politicians can think to do is throw more money at the problem. The infrastructures need to be completely redesigned, not just have more money.
I agreed with you that lobbying sucks, and that too many politicians are on big business's payroll, but you can't blame ONLY the big businesses. Again, thats like only punishing the guy who hired the hitman, while letting the hitman go free.
I can't stand Fox News, and if you'd even read my other replies, you'd already know this. I can't stand ANY of the 24-hour news channels, because NONE of them are balanced or fair at all. Maybe you should quit listening to Keith Olbermann all day.
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On November 14 2011 04:42 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else? On November 13 2011 10:23 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 05:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 03:57 Millitron wrote:On November 12 2011 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 12 2011 11:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:But anyway, one has to be fucking dumb to even have the idea of privatizing prisons, huhu?
I'm sure you'll come with a twisty reasoning explaining why it's because government is too important, though. It will be tough, but I'm sure you'll make it Saying that it's politicians who make it attractive instead of corporation that corrupt / influence politicians is a good place to start. well it does take two to tango. there's usually a family or personal connection going on at the local level for the construction / maintenance and a union connection since the new jobs will undoubtedly be union jobs. also the state government provides money with little oversight on how the locals spend it, as long as a prison gets built. and then since there's this new concentration of convicts local police start saying they need more money; it builds on itself. you can't end pigs overfeeding at the government trough if the government has the food and the inclination to feed indiscriminately. moderate government's hunger to throw more money at any problem and you're a third of the way to a solution. Funny you don't get it. In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?) In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) Well, it IS partly some Keynesian plot. Building prisons IS an easy way to boost employment. That's not all of it, there are lobbying interests with huge amounts of money to spend on it, but you can't blame ONLY them. Who goes to jail for bribery? It's not only the person paying the bribe; the person accepting it is just as guilty. Do you want me to facepalm to death? France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> much more "keynesian", socialist, or whatever you want than the US France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> prison sector not privatized France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> 0,07% people in jail against 1% in US Conclusion: people are not put in jail to create artificially employment, but because it benefits a for-profit industry. Seriously, just the fact that you can believe something like that leaves me speechless. I agreed with you. I totally agree that lobbying is a big part of it. Its not the whole story though; politicians jump at any chance to spend money, because its an easy way to show the voters that they're involved. Saying ONLY lobbyists are to blame is like only punishing the guy who solicited a hit-man, while letting the hit-man go free. Politicians struggle like hell to pay for social services such as education and health services. They don't even have money to fix your broken and obsolete infrastructures. If you think they spend money just for fun by throwing it in a useless and unproductive industry because people want more taxes, you should maybe stop watching Fox News and get other referents than Glenn Beck. Now, people who have invented and supported this "law and order" shit are precisely the one who have privatized prisons. Namely, the Republicans, under Reagan and afterward. The thing is though, these broken infrastructures DON'T NEED MORE MONEY, but all politicians can think to do is throw more money at the problem. The infrastructures need to be completely redesigned, not just have more money. I agreed with you that lobbying sucks, and that too many politicians are on big business's payroll, but you can't blame ONLY the big businesses. Again, thats like only punishing the guy who hired the hitman, while letting the hitman go free. I can't stand Fox News, and if you'd even read my other replies, you'd already know this. I can't stand ANY of the 24-hour news channels, because NONE of them are balanced or fair at all. Maybe you should quit listening to Keith Olbermann all day.
Sure. The way to fix, for example your completely outdated electric system that is 70 years old is not to put money into it. You know, you can make a new one by just good will. Maybe if you pray, it also works.
And you think that government want to spend money, just for the sake of it; that politicians "jump on every chance to spend money". Like they have too much or something... So they increase the number of prisoners to spend more in something as useless, unproductive and sterile such as prisons.
I don't want to sound arrogant or dismissive, but it's not even a question of being misinformed or anything, your argument defy common sense. It's not even that I don't agree with you, it's that it's so far from the most basic fact of modern politics that I just can't find the rational behind it. Every single government now has budget problems: means they are trying to keep decent services without increasing too much taxes that would be detrimental to the economy.
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On November 14 2011 05:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 04:42 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else? On November 13 2011 10:23 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 05:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 03:57 Millitron wrote:On November 12 2011 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 12 2011 11:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:But anyway, one has to be fucking dumb to even have the idea of privatizing prisons, huhu?
I'm sure you'll come with a twisty reasoning explaining why it's because government is too important, though. It will be tough, but I'm sure you'll make it Saying that it's politicians who make it attractive instead of corporation that corrupt / influence politicians is a good place to start. well it does take two to tango. there's usually a family or personal connection going on at the local level for the construction / maintenance and a union connection since the new jobs will undoubtedly be union jobs. also the state government provides money with little oversight on how the locals spend it, as long as a prison gets built. and then since there's this new concentration of convicts local police start saying they need more money; it builds on itself. you can't end pigs overfeeding at the government trough if the government has the food and the inclination to feed indiscriminately. moderate government's hunger to throw more money at any problem and you're a third of the way to a solution. Funny you don't get it. In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?) In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) Well, it IS partly some Keynesian plot. Building prisons IS an easy way to boost employment. That's not all of it, there are lobbying interests with huge amounts of money to spend on it, but you can't blame ONLY them. Who goes to jail for bribery? It's not only the person paying the bribe; the person accepting it is just as guilty. Do you want me to facepalm to death? France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> much more "keynesian", socialist, or whatever you want than the US France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> prison sector not privatized France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> 0,07% people in jail against 1% in US Conclusion: people are not put in jail to create artificially employment, but because it benefits a for-profit industry. Seriously, just the fact that you can believe something like that leaves me speechless. I agreed with you. I totally agree that lobbying is a big part of it. Its not the whole story though; politicians jump at any chance to spend money, because its an easy way to show the voters that they're involved. Saying ONLY lobbyists are to blame is like only punishing the guy who solicited a hit-man, while letting the hit-man go free. Politicians struggle like hell to pay for social services such as education and health services. They don't even have money to fix your broken and obsolete infrastructures. If you think they spend money just for fun by throwing it in a useless and unproductive industry because people want more taxes, you should maybe stop watching Fox News and get other referents than Glenn Beck. Now, people who have invented and supported this "law and order" shit are precisely the one who have privatized prisons. Namely, the Republicans, under Reagan and afterward. The thing is though, these broken infrastructures DON'T NEED MORE MONEY, but all politicians can think to do is throw more money at the problem. The infrastructures need to be completely redesigned, not just have more money. I agreed with you that lobbying sucks, and that too many politicians are on big business's payroll, but you can't blame ONLY the big businesses. Again, thats like only punishing the guy who hired the hitman, while letting the hitman go free. I can't stand Fox News, and if you'd even read my other replies, you'd already know this. I can't stand ANY of the 24-hour news channels, because NONE of them are balanced or fair at all. Maybe you should quit listening to Keith Olbermann all day. Sure. The way to fix, for example your completely outdated electric system that is 70 years old is not to put money into it. You know, you can make a new one by just good will. Maybe if you pray, it also works. And you think that government want to spend money, just for the sake of it; that politicians "jump on every chance to spend money". Like they have too much or something... So they increase the number of prisoners to spend more in something as useless, unproductive and sterile such as prisons. I don't want to sound arrogant or dismissive, but it's not even a question of being misinformed or anything, your argument defy common sense. It's not even that I don't agree with you, it's that it's so far from the most basic fact of modern politics that I just can't find the rational behind it. Every single government now has budget problems: means they are trying to keep decent services without increasing too much taxes that would be detrimental to the economy. Can I ask you how old are you?
I never said that making new infrastructures was free, just that the current systems are broken beyond repair. Putting more money into them would only delay the inevitable. Say you have an old, beat-up junker of a car. Would you continue spending tons of money on constant repairs, or would you just get a new car?
To be fair though, the electric system, and all the utilities really, probably could just use more money. Its more complicated infrastructures, like the education system, the healthcare system, and the prison system that need to be completely redesigned.
Congress LOVES spending money, because they go up for election constantly. They can point to this or that bill and say, "Look at all this Federal money I brought to our district, vote for me."
Honestly, the only real problem I have with your position is that you seem to completely absolve politicians of all blame. To you, its only big corporations that are to blame. Well, they wouldn't be able to lobby and bribe anything they wanted through Congress if the politicians in Washington wouldn't stand for it. Some of these big corporations are to blame too, but its not JUST them.
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Biff, because there are so many different sources of information and opinions being put into this thread, I can't really be sure which one is right or if they all have bits of truth in them, HOWEVER, if you feel you do not agree with one, don't treat them like 10year old or retards. If you disagree with them, present your opinion without all the scorn. I've seen you in threads before, your opinions are well developed, but each time you're brutally attacking someone.
That being said, Millitron, you can't assume that all politicians are idiots. Some have most definitely identified the issue, and want to change things for the better. One problem is that the general population don't like things to undergo huge changes, and politicians respond to this.
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On November 14 2011 05:25 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 05:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 14 2011 04:42 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else? On November 13 2011 10:23 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 05:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 03:57 Millitron wrote:On November 12 2011 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 12 2011 11:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:But anyway, one has to be fucking dumb to even have the idea of privatizing prisons, huhu?
I'm sure you'll come with a twisty reasoning explaining why it's because government is too important, though. It will be tough, but I'm sure you'll make it Saying that it's politicians who make it attractive instead of corporation that corrupt / influence politicians is a good place to start. well it does take two to tango. there's usually a family or personal connection going on at the local level for the construction / maintenance and a union connection since the new jobs will undoubtedly be union jobs. also the state government provides money with little oversight on how the locals spend it, as long as a prison gets built. and then since there's this new concentration of convicts local police start saying they need more money; it builds on itself. you can't end pigs overfeeding at the government trough if the government has the food and the inclination to feed indiscriminately. moderate government's hunger to throw more money at any problem and you're a third of the way to a solution. Funny you don't get it. In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?) In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) Well, it IS partly some Keynesian plot. Building prisons IS an easy way to boost employment. That's not all of it, there are lobbying interests with huge amounts of money to spend on it, but you can't blame ONLY them. Who goes to jail for bribery? It's not only the person paying the bribe; the person accepting it is just as guilty. Do you want me to facepalm to death? France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> much more "keynesian", socialist, or whatever you want than the US France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> prison sector not privatized France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> 0,07% people in jail against 1% in US Conclusion: people are not put in jail to create artificially employment, but because it benefits a for-profit industry. Seriously, just the fact that you can believe something like that leaves me speechless. I agreed with you. I totally agree that lobbying is a big part of it. Its not the whole story though; politicians jump at any chance to spend money, because its an easy way to show the voters that they're involved. Saying ONLY lobbyists are to blame is like only punishing the guy who solicited a hit-man, while letting the hit-man go free. Politicians struggle like hell to pay for social services such as education and health services. They don't even have money to fix your broken and obsolete infrastructures. If you think they spend money just for fun by throwing it in a useless and unproductive industry because people want more taxes, you should maybe stop watching Fox News and get other referents than Glenn Beck. Now, people who have invented and supported this "law and order" shit are precisely the one who have privatized prisons. Namely, the Republicans, under Reagan and afterward. The thing is though, these broken infrastructures DON'T NEED MORE MONEY, but all politicians can think to do is throw more money at the problem. The infrastructures need to be completely redesigned, not just have more money. I agreed with you that lobbying sucks, and that too many politicians are on big business's payroll, but you can't blame ONLY the big businesses. Again, thats like only punishing the guy who hired the hitman, while letting the hitman go free. I can't stand Fox News, and if you'd even read my other replies, you'd already know this. I can't stand ANY of the 24-hour news channels, because NONE of them are balanced or fair at all. Maybe you should quit listening to Keith Olbermann all day. Sure. The way to fix, for example your completely outdated electric system that is 70 years old is not to put money into it. You know, you can make a new one by just good will. Maybe if you pray, it also works. And you think that government want to spend money, just for the sake of it; that politicians "jump on every chance to spend money". Like they have too much or something... So they increase the number of prisoners to spend more in something as useless, unproductive and sterile such as prisons. I don't want to sound arrogant or dismissive, but it's not even a question of being misinformed or anything, your argument defy common sense. It's not even that I don't agree with you, it's that it's so far from the most basic fact of modern politics that I just can't find the rational behind it. Every single government now has budget problems: means they are trying to keep decent services without increasing too much taxes that would be detrimental to the economy. Can I ask you how old are you? I never said that making new infrastructures was free, just that the current systems are broken beyond repair. Putting more money into them would only delay the inevitable. Say you have an old, beat-up junker of a car. Would you continue spending tons of money on constant repairs, or would you just get a new car? To be fair though, the electric system, and all the utilities really, probably could just use more money. Its more complicated infrastructures, like the education system, the healthcare system, and the prison system that need to be completely redesigned. Congress LOVES spending money, because they go up for election constantly. They can point to this or that bill and say, "Look at all this Federal money I brought to our district, vote for me." Honestly, the only real problem I have with your position is that you seem to completely absolve politicians of all blame. To you, its only big corporations that are to blame. Well, they wouldn't be able to lobby and bribe anything they wanted through Congress if the politicians in Washington wouldn't stand for it. Some of these big corporations are to blame too, but its not JUST them.
Infrastructure system beyond repair needs massive investment to make a new ones. The reason it is not being done is that your government doesn't have this money and that nobody would agree to raise taxes that would allow such investment. In case you don't know, your government and every government in every single western democracy has enormous issues with a debt crisis and is under enormous financial pressure.
So if your government "loooved to spend money", they would have done it by replacing these infrastructures. Simple as that. They didn't do it because half of Americans think taxes are evil and that your government is too broke to offer stuff as basic as a healthcare or decent public transports to its population. So you see, infrastructures are n°375 priority.
Now, nobody "loooves to spend money". Taxes has constantly decreased since thirty years. I understand your point that if they spend money they get elected (classical conservative argument), but that's a completely invalid point in the case of prisons. Nobody will elect a government because it throws money into something useless. If we talk about the fact that, in order to be elected, government look tougher and tougher on crime, that's an other question, but it has nothing to do with "wanting to spend money". You will also notice that the "though on crime" bullshit comes from the same that want to lower taxes and reduce the size of the government: the right wing. So it makes even less sense (like, what, Reagan "wanted to spend money?")
I do blame politicians. I blame politicians for being under the influence of corporations and of a financial elite, and to serve private interests instead of serving society as a whole (or justice in that case). I blame your political system which is structurally corrupt, since your political life is funded by private individuals and company.
The reason your country went into this completely mad repressive mania is because politicians have been serving the interests of prison corporations (that shouldn't exist in the first place) instead of serving the interest of the society.
Which explains why:
1- Your prison population exploded basically the year the system was privatized.
2- It didn't happen anywhere else, since you are basically the only country that privatized completely prisons.
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On November 14 2011 05:32 Dark_Chill wrote:
Biff, because there are so many different sources of information and opinions being put into this thread, I can't really be sure which one is right or if they all have bits of truth in them, HOWEVER, if you feel you do not agree with one, don't treat them like 10year old or retards. If you disagree with them, present your opinion without all the scorn. I've seen you in threads before, your opinions are well developed, but each time you're brutally attacking someone.
That being said, Millitron, you can't assume that all politicians are idiots. Some have most definitely identified the issue, and want to change things for the better. One problem is that the general population don't like things to undergo huge changes, and politicians respond to this.
I'm sure there ARE good politicians. Its just it always seems the good ones get ignored, at least on the national level. It seems that the media just wants conflict, and to hear more party-line soundbytes, and not actually any good ideas. But thats a different discussion entirely.
Biff, spending money just to spend money is called Pork-barrel politics. Its fairly common political tactic. Now, I agree its not the whole reason politicians want to build prisons, but it IS part of it. As for prisons being something useless to throw more money into; the tough-on-crime crowd don't see it as useless. I agree they're wrong, but I'm only one vote, they're hundreds of thousands of votes.
I think what would help the most is to institute term limits in congress. That way it's not just a job for Congressmen, they are there to actually help the country. This would decrease lobbying too, because those big corporations would have to bribe way more people way more often to get the same effect. Plus, maybe some of this tough-on-crime BS would go away as we get some new, hopefully more open-minded representatives.
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On November 14 2011 06:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 05:25 Millitron wrote:On November 14 2011 05:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 14 2011 04:42 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else? On November 13 2011 10:23 Millitron wrote:On November 13 2011 05:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 13 2011 03:57 Millitron wrote:On November 12 2011 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 12 2011 11:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
[quote]
well it does take two to tango.
there's usually a family or personal connection going on at the local level for the construction / maintenance and a union connection since the new jobs will undoubtedly be union jobs. also the state government provides money with little oversight on how the locals spend it, as long as a prison gets built. and then since there's this new concentration of convicts local police start saying they need more money; it builds on itself.
you can't end pigs overfeeding at the government trough if the government has the food and the inclination to feed indiscriminately. moderate government's hunger to throw more money at any problem and you're a third of the way to a solution. Funny you don't get it. In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?) In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) Well, it IS partly some Keynesian plot. Building prisons IS an easy way to boost employment. That's not all of it, there are lobbying interests with huge amounts of money to spend on it, but you can't blame ONLY them. Who goes to jail for bribery? It's not only the person paying the bribe; the person accepting it is just as guilty. Do you want me to facepalm to death? France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> much more "keynesian", socialist, or whatever you want than the US France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> prison sector not privatized France, Germany, Italy, etc... ===> 0,07% people in jail against 1% in US Conclusion: people are not put in jail to create artificially employment, but because it benefits a for-profit industry. Seriously, just the fact that you can believe something like that leaves me speechless. I agreed with you. I totally agree that lobbying is a big part of it. Its not the whole story though; politicians jump at any chance to spend money, because its an easy way to show the voters that they're involved. Saying ONLY lobbyists are to blame is like only punishing the guy who solicited a hit-man, while letting the hit-man go free. Politicians struggle like hell to pay for social services such as education and health services. They don't even have money to fix your broken and obsolete infrastructures. If you think they spend money just for fun by throwing it in a useless and unproductive industry because people want more taxes, you should maybe stop watching Fox News and get other referents than Glenn Beck. Now, people who have invented and supported this "law and order" shit are precisely the one who have privatized prisons. Namely, the Republicans, under Reagan and afterward. The thing is though, these broken infrastructures DON'T NEED MORE MONEY, but all politicians can think to do is throw more money at the problem. The infrastructures need to be completely redesigned, not just have more money. I agreed with you that lobbying sucks, and that too many politicians are on big business's payroll, but you can't blame ONLY the big businesses. Again, thats like only punishing the guy who hired the hitman, while letting the hitman go free. I can't stand Fox News, and if you'd even read my other replies, you'd already know this. I can't stand ANY of the 24-hour news channels, because NONE of them are balanced or fair at all. Maybe you should quit listening to Keith Olbermann all day. Sure. The way to fix, for example your completely outdated electric system that is 70 years old is not to put money into it. You know, you can make a new one by just good will. Maybe if you pray, it also works. And you think that government want to spend money, just for the sake of it; that politicians "jump on every chance to spend money". Like they have too much or something... So they increase the number of prisoners to spend more in something as useless, unproductive and sterile such as prisons. I don't want to sound arrogant or dismissive, but it's not even a question of being misinformed or anything, your argument defy common sense. It's not even that I don't agree with you, it's that it's so far from the most basic fact of modern politics that I just can't find the rational behind it. Every single government now has budget problems: means they are trying to keep decent services without increasing too much taxes that would be detrimental to the economy. Can I ask you how old are you? I never said that making new infrastructures was free, just that the current systems are broken beyond repair. Putting more money into them would only delay the inevitable. Say you have an old, beat-up junker of a car. Would you continue spending tons of money on constant repairs, or would you just get a new car? To be fair though, the electric system, and all the utilities really, probably could just use more money. Its more complicated infrastructures, like the education system, the healthcare system, and the prison system that need to be completely redesigned. Congress LOVES spending money, because they go up for election constantly. They can point to this or that bill and say, "Look at all this Federal money I brought to our district, vote for me." Honestly, the only real problem I have with your position is that you seem to completely absolve politicians of all blame. To you, its only big corporations that are to blame. Well, they wouldn't be able to lobby and bribe anything they wanted through Congress if the politicians in Washington wouldn't stand for it. Some of these big corporations are to blame too, but its not JUST them. Infrastructure system beyond repair needs massive investment to make a new ones. The reason it is not being done is that your government doesn't have this money and that nobody would agree to raise taxes that would allow such investment. In case you don't know, your government and every government in every single western democracy has enormous issues with a debt crisis and is under enormous financial pressure. So if your government "loooved to spend money", they would have done it by replacing these infrastructures. Simple as that. They didn't do it because half of Americans think taxes are evil and that your government is too broke to offer stuff as basic as a healthcare or decent public transports to its population. So you see, infrastructures are n°375 priority. Now, nobody "loooves to spend money". Taxes has constantly decreased since thirty years. I understand your point that if they spend money they get elected (classical conservative argument), but that's a completely invalid point in the case of prisons. Nobody will elect a government because it throws money into something useless. If we talk about the fact that, in order to be elected, government look tougher and tougher on crime, that's an other question, but it has nothing to do with "wanting to spend money". You will also notice that the "though on crime" bullshit comes from the same that want to lower taxes and reduce the size of the government: the right wing. So it makes even less sense (like, what, Reagan "wanted to spend money?") I do blame politicians. I blame politicians for being under the influence of corporations and of a financial elite, and to serve private interests instead of serving society as a whole (or justice in that case). I blame your political system which is structurally corrupt, since your political life is funded by private individuals and company. The reason your country went into this completely mad repressive mania is because politicians have been serving the interests of prison corporations (that shouldn't exist in the first place) instead of serving the interest of the society. Which explains why: 1- Your prison population exploded basically the year the system was privatized. 2- It didn't happen anywhere else, since you are basically the only country that privatized completely prisons.
You can't blame private corporations for the huge growth of the prison population. It's not only too simple of an answer but it's wrong. The privatization of prisons was a result of US policy makers whose laws created a demand for more prisons which could not be met by the states/federal government and so the void was filled by private companies. It started because of the 'war on crime' which had followed the 'war on poverty' from the 1970s which had attempted to attack the root of crime. Politicians support these tactics because honestly, what politician who wants to be re-elected will allow himself or herself to be seen as 'soft on crime' or 'soft on drugs'?
With the election of Reagan and the Republicans back in charge, the US changed tactics and declared a 'war on crime' and 'war on drugs.' One crucial change was the passing of the Sentencing Reform Act in 1984 in which federal parole was abolished and rehabilitation was no longer considered important. US's criminal justice system is punitive and based on the just-desserts model. In essence, the US returned to classical crim theory that criminals are rational and choose crime because the rewards are higher than the consequences. Deterrence theory is based on three principles: certainty of apprehension, celerity of prosecution, and severity. If punishments are increased then people won't commit crime (or so the supporters say). One (of several important policies that came out of this) is three strikes. Because of the reliance on deterrence (even though research has said time and time again it doesn't work), you end up with individuals receiving sentences that are much longer and hence an explosion in the prison system. Interestingly enough, there's a tipping point in communities where once a certain number of individuals are incarcerated, crime rates start to actually go up because the area has been destabilized so much.
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It's pretty easy to blame the govt. for things, but something has to be said for the fact that most of the prison population are in fact criminals. Sure, some people have ended up with ridiculously harsh sentences due to interpretations of laws, but most are in jail serving "fair" sentences.
It's also easy to draw conclusions when looking at certain numbers side by side. Just because Americans are jailed more than Europeans doesn't mean that their government is any more of a slave to big money, even if it coincides with the privatization of prisons. Maybe there are just more Americans than Europeans breaking the law and getting caught? This could be a symptom of police in America doing their jobs better.
You could draw a number of conclusions, and I just don't see why this is being debated so heavily in this thread. Was justice served in the case in the OP? No. If the system is supposed to be based around rehabilitation there is no question that this was abuse of a judge's authority to make a point.
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Kind of a ridiculous sentence when murderers can get parole and shortened sentences for far worse acts. Especially when this guy is guilty of having a different orientation and didn't actually commit an act.
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This is ludicrous. Just another example of the American justice system throwing an undeserved sentence to appease the masses.
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On November 14 2011 08:11 divito wrote:
Kind of a ridiculous sentence when murderers can get parole and shortened sentences for far worse acts. Especially when this guy is guilty of having a different orientation and didn't actually commit an act.
Except a bald chick had a vision of him having his way with a child at one point in his life, so they brought in Tom Cruise and he busted that SOB's ass!
+ Show Spoiler +At this point this is all speculative of course
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On November 12 2011 07:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. It's really bad when stuff like prisons get privatized. Suddenly some very powerful groups really have interest so that the biggest amount of people go in jail for as long as possible. And well, unfortunately, interest of those groups are not necessarily the interest of Justice.
Not this shit again.
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The area of child pornography is a socially and legally difficult one: digital technology has changed the way people interact with the world, and has left many moral inconsistencies within our current legal framework. Any act that takes advantage of the venerable should be condemned, both legally and socially - however the current legal framework fails to take into account ignorance and psychologically-sound consent.
Before digital media, the law was clear cut: a child that was not mentally developed enough to make decisions should be protected by society from exploitation (sexual or otherwise); so if anyone else attempted any exploitation, then they should be punished. As society began to develop, along with our understanding of the brain, we began to understand how and when we mature - and reached the conclusion that girls sexually matured at the age of around 16, while guys took two years longer. Therefore, the minimum age for a couple to have consensual sex would be a 16 year old girl with a 18 year old guy.
And then photography (and, by legal and moral extension, the internet) came along. Suddenly we had a social dilemma: what would the visual manifestation of the act be classified as? As pornography was for consumption of society, there needed to be stricter laws in order to ensure that consent was given, and that the subject was mentally developed enough to understand what was happening: thus the minimum age given was 18. However, this leaves an interesting moral contradiction (most prominently bought up in the 'sexing' phenomena) : how can a 16 and 18 year old couple who are having consensual sex be prosecuted for 'sexting' each other? Personally, I believe this contradiction can be cleared up by ensuring that the relationship is both personal and consensual - otherwise maintaining the the legal age of 18.
However, all that aside, we now come to the fuzzy area of 'guilt of the mind', vs 'guilt of the act' - as the source of most of this material does not state the age of whom is being modelled. This would pass guilt first too the uploader, who can be verifiable proven to be aware of the situation, and then the content provider - who has to ensure that all content shown on their site is legal. So, should this man be proven he was aware that what he had was illegal, then his guilt is inevitable.
And next, punishment and rehabilitation. Again, this area is difficult to assess: the psychological damage done must be accounted for, but is difficult to quantify. I don't think it's justifiable to state that the accused has lost all ability to redeem himself and change, nor for his damage to society to be taken back in punishment - so a life sentence is a little heavy. What is clear is that there is that the accused is morally damaged, and that he has psychologically damaged an innocent: but how can this ever be reconciled? Unfortunately, such things are nearly unquantifiable - but this should spur investigation into what makes such a person do such a thing, and the effects on the victim; rather than outright blind condemnation.
However, now that the act has been committed, and the punishment given - I hope that both the perpetrator and the victim recover from the event, and that justice is proportionately given and served.
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just enjoying the circus. both parties are fucked up.
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Wtf..... this is soo uncool. child porn is gross, but life sentence. appeal all the way.
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I just read the title, and all I have to say is:
This man deserves it.
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The distribution of child pornography is one thing, but viewing it is completely different.
If this guy were a cocaine addict, and was caught with cocaine or under the influence, he would not likely even be sentenced to jail. It's more likely that he would be sent to a rehabilitation center, where he would have to stay until he passed a series of tests.
This man deserves to be helped with his problem. He is holding a steady job with no criminal record, and this is his first offense. Give him counseling and make him remove all of the images. Monitor his computer to make sure he doesn't do it again, and if he does, then you can reconsider his sentence.
IMO, our justice system is failing this man horribly.
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On November 13 2011 23:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 10:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Funny you don't get it. No you? In France we have proportionally TEN TIMES less prisoners than the US. Why? Because nobody is making pressure on the parliament and the judges, and do hardcore lobbying like pigs to make more and more repressive laws, because nobody has interest to increase the number of prisoners (and no, it's not some Keynesian evil plot by government and unions to create employment by making huge prison public sector. How do you manage not to laugh by writing things THAT dumb?)
You don't know anything about the situation in the United States, you just have to view everything through your narrow anti-capitalist prism. Privatization of prisons is something that's become widespread in the last 20 years, it has been almost 35 years since the start of the prison boom. Business moved in after government made it a cash cow. Harsher sentences as part of the "law and order" mood of the country post-Counterculture era was in the late 70s and early 80s. Harsh anti-drug sentences are from the 80s. Get tough on crime was a reaction to hippies, race riots, and then the crack epidemic. All those things went away but get tough on crime remained. Before prison privatization. You don't know what happened and you don't know why it happened. Cleaning up the business end is just a third of the solution, but you seem to only care about solutions where government has its nose in business everywhere but no similar burden being placed on government. Because I guess government can't possibly be run by corrupt men unless business is free to corrupt them, right? You don't know the history so you just have to try to stretch your presumptions to fit an explanation and call stuff dumb. In America, prison are for profit, therefore you have groups that spend 400 million dollars a year in lobbying so that politicians make more and more repressive laws, and surprise! People and groups with money are influential and you end up with people going to jail for life because they had some bad stuff on their computer. Profit of who? You don't know everyone that profits, you seem to think it's just one group. You blame the government. You shouldn't. That's precisely because your government is weak and vulnerable to your almighty corporations that things like that happen. You should blame the ones that make pressure on the government, and the absence of laws that should prevent these same people to do wild lobbying. Pity, you do exactly the opposite, all day long. How can a weak government have enough power to be an attractive target of plutocrats? Your cognitive dissonance is almost as bad as your contempt. Conclusions: don't privatize prisons and the problem is fucking solved. Simplistic and ignorant reasoning results in simplistic and ignorant conclusions. That would not solve the problem. State and local governments aren't going to release huge numbers of prisoners just because privately-run prisons aren't around. They'll just build more themselves so they can keep saying they're "tough on crime." The sentencing guidelines and harsh sentencing / parole approval mindset aren't a product of business pressure. They predate widespread prison privatization. (PS: and no, the problem is NOT that government want to spend more money by putting more people in jail because you know, they want to spend more money. Just preventing the dumb irrational reasoning that is obviously coming) If government had little money to give and little power to make and break the rules, what benefit would business get corrupting it? Dumb irrational pity those are all the signs of a weak argument voiced from passion not reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg=> Creation of Correction Corporation of America: 1983. I'm sure you can read a graph. http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/73092-Freedom-watch-Jailhouse-bloc/?page=3#TOPCONTENTIt is, of course, in these private prisons' economic interests to see more people in prison serving longer sentences. And with current facilities bursting at the seams, times for this burgeoning industry are good. The country's largest private prison provider, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), spent more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws. Last year alone, the company, listed on the New York Stock Exchange, generated $133 million in net income.http://diversityinc.com/investigative-series/who-profits-from-the-prison-boom/"For decades, the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and other private-prison companies have been active members of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a powerful lobby based in Washington, D.C., responsible for numerous laws that have put millions of people behind bars."http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867Consider the growth of the Corrections Corporation of America, the industry leader whose stock price has climbed from $8 a share in 1992 to about $30 today and whose revenue rose by 81 per cent in 1995 alone. Investors in Wackenhut Corrections Corp. have enjoyed an average return of 18 per cent during the past five years and the company is rated by Forbes as one of the top 200 small businesses in the country. At Esmor, another big private prison contractor, revenues have soared from $4.6 million in 1990 to more than $25 million in 1995.
Ten years ago there were just five privately-run prisons in the country, housing a population of 2,000. Today nearly a score of private firms run more than 100 prisons with about 62,000 beds. That's still less than five per cent of the total market but the industry is expanding fast, with the number of private prison beds expected to grow to 360,000 during the next decade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison–industrial_complexhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_AmericaAnything else?
Did you even read the quotes you just posted? Look:
"$133 million in net income"
Wow, bug number. How much does the US spend on prisons, though? 47 billion.
"still less than five per cent of the total market"
So, less than 5 percent is privatized, but privatization is what has caused the problem? Really?
"$8 a share in 1992"
"Ten years ago [1990] there were just five privately-run prisons in the country"
"more than $2.7 million from 2006 through September 2008 on lobbying for stricter laws"
Wait, when did that prison spike start again? Early nineteen eighties? So, for 7-10 years, there were at most 5 privately run prisons, but the privatization of prisons still caused the entire nation's incarceration levels to sky rocket?
Now, do you know what was happening culturally and socially in the USA in the 1980's? Do you know what the trends for crime were before and during that time period? Specifically, violent crime? Drug related crime? Do you know the history behind the War on Crime or the War on Drugs or the rise of mandatory minimum sentencing and three strikes laws? How about the history of prison overcrowding from the 1980's onward?
You do not, because no one who does would actually think that privatization of the prison system was the main cause, or even an original minor cause of of the USA's prison problem.
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This argument is much ado about nothing.
If memory serves me right on prisoner ethics, a "life sentence" could be but a few years of sodomy and fear before eventual murder.
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On November 14 2011 15:51 ODieN wrote:
I just read the title, and all I have to say is:
This man deserves it.
Wow, I thought we were done with people like this in the thread, but apparently not. Please read the article, and if you still think so, then this means:
1. You believe possession of pictures is enough for life.
2. You think murder is better than possession of pictures or rape.
3. You should get help, because your thought process is really scary.
Also, read the actual thread please, your opinion might be a little more developed if you do.
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EPT
