On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Who are you to say that anyone is wrongly educated? I think YOU'RE the one who is acting arrogant, here.
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Who are you to say that anyone is wrongly educated? I think YOU'RE the one who is acting arrogant, here.
anyone arguing beating up a kid is fine is wrongly educated
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Considering France's economic, political and social situation, I find it surprising that you would make such a bold statement.
On November 03 2011 01:22 uLysSeS1 wrote: are some of you seriously discussing if this can be seen as justifiable..? this is brutal abuse, almost as ok as raping your daughter.
yes there are, and what's more, they fucking think they're rightly entitled to
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Who are you to say that anyone is wrongly educated? I think YOU'RE the one who is acting arrogant, here.
anyone arguing beating up a kid is fine is wrongly educated
that's not arrogance
edit : you guys really asking for it jesus
There's a difference between spanking a kid, and aggressively assaulting them like in the video. And you ARE saying that western nations are more civilized than eastern ones. That is arrogance.
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Considering France's economic, political and social situation, I find it surprising that you would make such a bold statement.
oh well, maybe our economics are actually so shite because we're playing by the rules others are fine ignoring
On November 03 2011 00:52 aTnClouD wrote: The more I see this the more I wish there was a license for being allowed to have children.
No way, the most awesome people I know (artists n stuff) had this type of childhood, and I'm pretty sure there's a relation. But solid punishments for the parent would help, that's for sure
So you think theres a magic relation between getting beat up and getting abused mentally and being an awesome grown-up that justifies abusing your children? There may be ppl that get "stronger" after such a childhood, but it's ridiculous to think that there aren't any problems with your logic of a person that obviously lacks understanding of very basic aspects of psychology.
Many ppl enduring such an abuse suffer from it their whole and even if some of them grow up to seem like pretty "normal" ppl, there may be a lot more that don't or where you just don't see their suffering.
Your logic therefore is not only flawed, but IMHO also very dangerous and to be frank, this post of you lets me heavily doubt your intelligence and empathy.
Your lack of logic is more dangerous. I'm still struggling to see where I justified the deed itself, though if you care about my opinion on it, rather than pointing a finger, you can check the last two pages. I'm also pretty sorry that you'd doubt my intelligence because my post isn't "omg, that's bad", because I'd rather question the intelligence of all the people who just seek for threads to give an OBVIOUS opinion on. Of course what he did is awful, I don't see any reason mentioning it, unlike people who use the "In my humble opinion, [insert something obvious here]" template. It's also awful, that most of these people are driven by some strange urge to, as I mentioned previously "point a finger at something", rather than empathise like you mentioned. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be one of 40+ pages of criticizing the father and almost no word about the girl herself, no need to know who she is, how she is doing, how did she come up with the courage of revealing this ... ... that's all I can say, I guess I better remain speechless, so that people give continue giving brilliant remarks ... edit : fixed some typos ...
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
you know, through the middle age people actually thought of theirselves as civilized
I would like to inform you that "civilized" is a relative standard. Are you measuring Asian civilizations against Western ones? Why is Western thought superior? If you can evince objective reasons, I would love to hear them.
oh well lets not dwelve into that, your beaten-in wrongly educated arrogance just shines already as far as ive seen for having lived over these regions for a bit, there are still a few mountains needed to be climbed before we can even start debating such topics and silly comparisons.
Who are you to say that anyone is wrongly educated? I think YOU'RE the one who is acting arrogant, here.
anyone arguing beating up a kid is fine is wrongly educated
that's not arrogance
edit : you guys really asking for it jesus
There's a difference between spanking a kid, and aggressively assaulting them like in the video. And you ARE saying that western nations are more civilized than eastern ones. That is arrogance.
oh come on now more than 90% of the world is uncivilized to my own standards
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
Oh yeah, my neighbor was Vietnamese and I was good friends with him when I was little, he'd always get the bamboo stick
My parents belted me too, and like you said, I don't hate them for it. I guess it's just a matter of "where is the line drawn" because in this case, the father seemed a lot more verbally abusive than he needed to be, plus it seemed like he was wailing on her a lot more intensive than he needed to be.
I agree with you, though, people in this thread are going absurdly hard on him in this case. At worst this is domestic abuse or something, you can't condemn the guy to death because he was punishing his child for illegally downloading music and stuff.
Acccording to this judge, real men beat disabled teenage girls into submission. What kind of man does this to their child and still try to justify it? A spanking sure. A hit or two with a belt, message made. A 10 minute beating that involved his wife as well and I'm sure made this girl feel hopelesss? This fucker can rot in hell. If my parents had done that to me as a kid I would never forgive them. Beating a helpless child is disgusting
i would love if the police finds him tottaly beaten up in some place.. but that wont happen. He should feel what he is doing and how wrong this is.. but if millions of people cant bring up one guy going sraight to hitler ( for example ) and shooting him.... i think their wont be anybody showing civil courage and playing with the risk of getting cauht afterwards.. jail etc.
On November 03 2011 01:06 DarkGeneral wrote: When it comes to discipline, Id let the parents be the judge...
edit: I was physically punished heavily when I was a kid, sometimes I deserved it, sometimes it may have been too much. I am 25 now, I think Im doing good as a human being, and I still love my parents. Punishment is needed, don't be all whiney about it, wait till you got kids.
You can do good in life if you're parents sometimes beat you as a kid. Nobody should dispute that.
The thing is, look at it like this: If I were to go up to a complete stranger, a 16-year old girl at that, bend her over and spank her with a letter belt for several minutes, I would be called crazy and most likely get a house arrest. If a father takes his daughter, bends her over and spanks her with a leather belt for several minutes, it is somehow fine?
I say we should not "let the parents be the judge" beyond minor cases of "violence" (I hestitate to use the word in the case of, say, a smack around the head). A 16-year old girl is defenseless against a grown man, and the violence in the video was far and beyond what can be called reasonable. You might have been subjected to comparable circumstances, I can't say, but it doesn't change my opinion if the daughter is fine now without any emotional scars.
On November 03 2011 00:52 aTnClouD wrote: The more I see this the more I wish there was a license for being allowed to have children.
No way, the most awesome people I know (artists n stuff) had this type of childhood, and I'm pretty sure there's a relation. But solid punishments for the parent would help, that's for sure
So you think theres a magic relation between getting beat up and getting abused mentally and being an awesome grown-up that justifies abusing your children? There may be ppl that get "stronger" after such a childhood, but it's ridiculous to think that there aren't any problems with your logic of a person that obviously lacks understanding of very basic aspects of psychology.
Many ppl enduring such an abuse suffer from it their whole and even if some of them grow up to seem like pretty "normal" ppl, there may be a lot more that don't or where you just don't see their suffering.
Your logic therefore is not only flawed, but IMHO also very dangerous and to be frank, this post of you lets me heavily doubt your intelligence and empathy.
Your lack of logic is more dangerous. I'm still struggling to see where I justified the deed itself, though if you care about my opinion on it, rather than pointing a finger, you can check the last two pages. I'm also pretty sorry that you'd doubt my intelligence because my post isn't "omg, that's bad", because I'd rather question the intelligence of all the people who just seek for threads to give an OBVIOUS opinion on. Of course what he did is awful, I don't see any reason mentioning it, unlike people who use the "In my humble opinion, [insert something obvious here]" template. It's also awful, that most of these people are driven by some strange urge to, as I mentioned previously "point a finger at something", rather than empathise like you mentioned. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be one of 40+ pages of criticizing the father and almost no word about the girl herself, no need to know who she is, how she is doing, how did she come up with the courage of revealing this ... ... that's all I can say, I guess I better remain speechless, so that people give continue giving brilliant remarks ... edit : fixed some typos ...
Actually, buried somewhere in this thread was a video of her playing some video game theme songs on the piano. She's actually rather marvelous.
I caution you all: the youtube page comments are even worse than the state of this thread.
On November 03 2011 01:09 Tabula`Rasa wrote: I haven't had the time to read through everything in this thread, but I'd like to point out that this is standard operating procedure in a lot of Asian families - including many countries that no reasonable person would call "uncivilized". Corporal punishment, where children are concerned, and whether it is right or wrong, is mostly a matter of social and cultural construction. The principles that inform current Western thought have their roots in the Enlightenment, and I think these ideas don't permeate a lot of other cultures and societies.
I'm not saying what he did is right, but I've been belted by my parents. So have most of my friends. None of us resent our parents for it. I don't think it crosses the line into abuse if within, and for good reason. The point I'm trying to make is that corporal punishment, like all other moral/societal norms, are matter of construction - whether it is right or wrong depends on the society you live in. I don't think it should be condemned as objectively wrong. Belting your child is nothing close to say, stoning an adulterous woman (which still happens in Pakistan). Without the context within which this 'punishment' is taking place, I think all of you are just jumping to conclusions. Is such behavior acceptable in America? Probably not. But I don't think this man deserves the kind of condemnation he's receiving in this thread. Not by a long stretch.
You have a very good point. Cultures are different and some people are overreacting. No he shouldn't get the death penalty or get bludgeoned to death for this that's ridiculous.
It's perfectly normal in some countries, so the parents don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're thinking this is how children are supposed to be raised. Culture can be wrong imo. Just think of the Sharia Law. Just because something is socially accepted or tradition doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
I think it's strange so many people in this thread who have been belted or hit with a cane defend this sort of behavior. If you were belted and you're fine that doesn't mean everyone else will be. Belting in general will be traumatizing for a lot of children even if most will get over it.
I do get your point though. I think a slap or spank is ok. Other people might think that's too cruel while I think it's ok. Just like I think belting is too cruel and others think it's ok.
No offense you're a smart guy but well we disagree on this matter I guess.
On November 02 2011 20:32 gameguard wrote: first of all you dont fucking hit a daughter no matter what... nothing can justify it.
For sons, it could be acceptable as long as its within limits. I mean you shouldnt go buck wild on an 8 year old because he stole a dollar from your wallet to go play at the arcade or something. But the most important thing is to make sure they UNDERSTAND why and that you love them. Dont leave them with a fucking grudge or something.
Personally, the few times i got my ass beat as a kid, my dad felt so bad that right afterwards he came with neosporin or something and talked to me about it. I could see that it hurt him more than me. Well.. since i was a immature kid, i would be thinking all sorts of evil shit, but after calming down a bit I could see that it was my fault.
But even for us asians, it will probably stop with our generation. Times are changing and you dont really need to resort to physical punishment to get your point across.
Resorting to causing PAIN to your child is a sign of a weak parent who doesn't know how to teach a child.
There are plenty of other ways to teach your child. As a PARENT, you should be trying to PREVENT any pain to your child. It's only natural.
EDIT: I missed your last sentance. I apologize.
/sigh.
Look, people are animals of above average intelligence. We do those activities that give us pleasure, and avoid those that bring us immediate pain. This is why no one knowingly sticks their hand into a fire but lots of people smoke. The whole point of punishment and corporal punishment in particular, is to condition people into not performing actions that are harmful (to the self, to others) but give immediate pleasure.
The role of a parent isn't to prevent pain. Its to turn your child into a productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks. If you think that that can be done by coddling your children, and sheltering them from any and all hardship, I hope you never have to raise children.
and operant conditioning and positive reinforcement has long since proven to be the superior way of training an animal and getting it to do what you want it do. That's why the professional dog training community condemns idiots like Cesar Milan - he's propagating the myth that pain and physical coercion leads to positive results. Pain leads to fear, it doesn't lead to an animal or a person cognitively dealing with a situation. Striking a child - whether it leaves bruises or not, whether it does physiological scarring or not - is bad parenting.
Causing pain to a child doesn't guarantee that it'll become a "productive, law abiding, moral citizen, with the ability to cope with pain, suffering and setbacks." More likely, it'll have the opposite effect. It'll teach the child that physical might makes right. It'll teach the child that fear produces results. That's actually amoral, in my view.The anecdotal thing you hear the most about when it comes to physical punishment of a child, is that the child doesn't actually stop the undesired behavior - they just learn to hide it from the parent.
The prime example of that is the video that started this whole thread. The girl didn't stop downloading music on the internet because her father hits her. She ended up resenting him - obviously to this day - and found a way to attack that person once she was safe from his physical attacks.
Corporal punishment does not work. It never has.
I'm reposting this, just because it's so brilliant
Wow you are one simple minded tool. Humans are not dogs. Training is not the same as teaching. Yeah I can teach my dog to lift up his palm when I say hi, but if I don't punish him for trashing the trash he is going to do it over and over and over again. And while the dog doesn't understand what the "hi" means, to him when you say hi and he lifts his paw up it means cookie and that is training, that is not understanding.
Now I'm not saying the only way to teach kids is by punishing them, but its one of the many tools you could use. I actually have found that parents who don't punish their kids at all, their kids are stupid, spoiled brats that cause all sorts of trouble and even when their parents start saying "jimmy sweety don't do that" the kids does it even more and the whole family kinds of gets embarrassed if it in public by how their kid couldn't care less about what they say to him.
O yeah I've set with such parents a lot of times and their kids are like wild animals put out of a cage and don't behave at all and when they start causing too much commotion and get on everyone's nerves and the parents try to control the kids they can't because he doesn't listen to them and they sit there embarrassed trying to make jokes about it, to alleviate some of their guilt and responsibility.
In fact when I see children outside yelling like crazy at 4pm when you are trying to relax and stuff, I know they have crap parents that don't discipline them, don't teach them.
But again spanking in just one of the tools you can use, of course beating a child and spanking it are two different things. There is a limit on that and I'm sure all of us have been beaten by our parents dozens of times as we've been growing up and do we all have scars of it, are we all depressed for the rest of our lives? No, because humans are not as weak as you make them out to be.
In this case I've already made my points clear and I won't be repeating them, but you sir need to broaden your scope of understanding.
On November 03 2011 00:52 aTnClouD wrote: The more I see this the more I wish there was a license for being allowed to have children.
No way, the most awesome people I know (artists n stuff) had this type of childhood, and I'm pretty sure there's a relation. But solid punishments for the parent would help, that's for sure
So you think theres a magic relation between getting beat up and getting abused mentally and being an awesome grown-up that justifies abusing your children? There may be ppl that get "stronger" after such a childhood, but it's ridiculous to think that there aren't any problems with your logic of a person that obviously lacks understanding of very basic aspects of psychology.
Many ppl enduring such an abuse suffer from it their whole and even if some of them grow up to seem like pretty "normal" ppl, there may be a lot more that don't or where you just don't see their suffering.
Your logic therefore is not only flawed, but IMHO also very dangerous and to be frank, this post of you lets me heavily doubt your intelligence and empathy.
Your lack of logic is more dangerous. I'm still struggling to see where I justified the deed itself, though if you care about my opinion on it, rather than pointing a finger, you can check the last two pages. I'm also pretty sorry that you'd doubt my intelligence because my post isn't "omg, that's bad", because I'd rather question the intelligence of all the people who just seek for threads to give an OBVIOUS opinion on. Of course what he did is awful, I don't see any reason mentioning it, unlike people who use the "In my humble opinion, [insert something obvious here]" template. It's also awful, that most of these people are driven by some strange urge to, as I mentioned previously "point a finger at something", rather than empathise like you mentioned. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be one of 40+ pages of criticizing the father and almost no word about the girl herself, no need to know who she is, how she is doing, how did she come up with the courage of revealing this ... ... that's all I can say, I guess I better remain speechless, so that people give continue giving brilliant remarks ... edit : fixed some typos ...
I caution you all: the youtube page comments are even worse than the state of this thread.
Thanks for that, I checked some random pages of this thread since my last post, but I had missed that. I think reposting this video every 10 pages would be more beneficial than any post of hatred towards the father :}
EPT
