On October 29 2011 06:02 swarmageddon wrote: I saw the clip at Blizzcon and taken in context (with all the editing and framing it around the "this guy is REALLY passionate about loving the Horde") it never even occurred to me that anything was offensive - I just figured the metal guy was joking.
Imagine your parents abandoned you for being gay when you were 14 years old. Imagine your best friend got killed for being gay. Prejudice hurts. Imagine that asshole saying "nigger" and "jew" instead of "homo" and "faggot" Would it still sound like a joke to you?
As someone who spent formative years being bullied and called names to the point of some really bad depression and self esteem issues, I can attest that prejudice hurts. I can also attest that people need to learn to take things in context and pick their battles. Know what? It's a free country and people have the right to feel offended and victimized. What about all the homosexual people who watched the clip and were not offended because they realized it wasn't a direct slam against them but an unfortunate word that slipped out of the guy's mouth? Maybe they don't want to be lumped into the same category as those who complain about every tiny thing. Blizzard apologized and that wasn't enough? Maybe we should also crucify all the British people who just used slang terminology for a cigarette or meatball. This reminds me of the Penny Arcade comic people blew out of proportion.
On October 29 2011 06:20 Hoon wrote: In the end, people that complain about discrimination like this are actually 'discriminating themselves' and showing to the world that they 'need' more attention.
This perfect world you are talking about, where discrimination doesn't happen, where complaining about discrimination is either mistaken or disingenuous, does not exist.
I'd love to live in your perfect world where prejudice is a non-issue, but in the real world we have gay kids getting abandoned in the streets and murdered for who they are.
Proactively changing attitudes is the fastest way to stop that.
People getting murdered or being beaten for being gay is completely different from people getting verbally harassed unintentionally. Horde vs Alliance hate have always been about how 'masculine' Horde players are vs. how 'delicate' Alliance players are. I agree that people need to be active about discrimination, but there is a limit which the OP went too far out. You can say it is similar to that discussion about the n-bomb on Destiny's stream.
while i'm all for not allowing discrimination against gays, people have to stop making the argument that being gay is a genetic thing because there is no such proof that it is. most people use that argument as a way to justify why discrimination shouldn't occur, when in reality no discrimination should be allowed no matter what.
On October 29 2011 07:14 Gnosis wrote: But I still wouldn't take him as being anti-black or antisemitic, just as I didn't take him as being anti-gay.
The issue here is bigger than whether or not this corpsegrinder guy is anti-gay. By playing a video of him throwing the words "faggot" and "homo" around at blizzcon, Blizzard perpetuated a social norm: discrimination the basis of race and religion is not tolerated, yet discrimination based on sexual orientation is acceptable. This is a message that hurts people whether it's intended or not.
I understand there's limit where stuff gets too offensive. This wasn't there, but it's understandable that some people make complaint about it so there won't be MORE offensive stuff in the future on same kind of events. Original corpsegrinder's youtube rant is damn hilarious but suppose it can be too much for too big of an event where people still can never hear a word "fag" without exploding.
On October 29 2011 07:14 Gnosis wrote: But I still wouldn't take him as being anti-black or antisemitic, just as I didn't take him as being anti-gay.
The issue here is bigger than whether or not this corpsegrinder guy is anti-gay. By playing a video of him throwing the words "faggot" and "homo" around at blizzcon, Blizzard perpetuated a social norm: discrimination the basis of race and religion is not tolerated, yet discrimination based on sexual orientation is acceptable. This is a message that hurts people whether it's intended or not.
What hurts people is the fact that this recording has seen the light of day. The guy doing the interview with this Corpsegrinder person should've switched the mic and camera off after like 45 seconds and tell him "You know what? Forget about it. Whatever you're trying to convey is not worth recording." As a public person he should watch his language. Being all gory, metal and all doesn't mean you have to be rude off the stage too.
Recently we've had quite a discussion in Poland when Adam "Nergal" Darski (frontman for Behemoth) tore a Bible on stage. People even went to court over this but he was freed of all charges as it was deemed part of his artistic performance (and according to EU law you can't hide behind "hurting religious beliefs" in accordnance to free speech). But that's not the point. The point is that even though he can be extreme on the stage during his performances he is a really nice person when not doing it. He's been selected for a jury in one of the television's music shows (people of course raged about it because of the aforementioned Bible desacration) and what do we see there? A normal person who makes cohesive and well-structured sentences, doesn't use foul language and in general seems like a nice guy.
I guess that some people try to maintain their act when they're off the stage (vide: Laibach), which can be understandable in some cases, not so much in every case.
On October 29 2011 07:14 Gnosis wrote: But I still wouldn't take him as being anti-black or antisemitic, just as I didn't take him as being anti-gay.
The issue here is bigger than whether or not this corpsegrinder guy is anti-gay. By playing a video of him throwing the words "faggot" and "homo" around at blizzcon, Blizzard perpetuated a social norm: discrimination the basis of race and religion is not tolerated, yet discrimination based on sexual orientation is acceptable. This is a message that hurts people whether it's intended or not.
No one said discrimination based on sexual orientation was acceptable, least of all Blizzard. Was this irresponsible on Blizzards part? Sure (it was vulgar). Was it anti-gay on their part? No, it wasn't. Context makes clear there's no message to discern. If people were offended, if they didn't like the way someone spoke, then they're just going to have to get used to it like the rest of us. Personally, I'm offended (or is that disgusted?) that this has received the response it has. I don't see a reason to complain: what offends me probably won't offend someone else.
I dont believe 99% of gays (me included) are offended by a metal singer using bad language. Is it in very poor taste? Yes, but that is people are allowed to be idiots and we all deal with much more personal and severe cases of this behavior daily. The issue is that there was a moment where it seemed like BLIZZARD condoned this. The apology is enough for me but this is strike one.
On October 29 2011 07:58 Ouga wrote: I understand there's limit where stuff gets too offensive. This wasn't there, but it's understandable that some people make complaint about it so there won't be MORE offensive stuff in the future on same kind of events. Original corpsegrinder's youtube rant is damn hilarious but suppose it can be too much for too big of an event where people still can never hear a word "fag" without exploding.
It should be offensive. When a word like "nigger" is taboo, everyone knows it. That's important because when kids are growing up and learn that "nigger" is a taboo word, they also learn that racism is unacceptable. When Blizzard, at Blizzcon, portrays as acceptable using the word "faggot" the way corpsegrinder did, it sends the opposite message (whether or not the guy in the video or blizzard meant to).
On October 29 2011 07:58 Ouga wrote: I understand there's limit where stuff gets too offensive. This wasn't there, but it's understandable that some people make complaint about it so there won't be MORE offensive stuff in the future on same kind of events. Original corpsegrinder's youtube rant is damn hilarious but suppose it can be too much for too big of an event where people still can never hear a word "fag" without exploding.
It should be offensive. When a word like "nigger" is taboo, everyone knows it. That's important because when kids are growing up and learn that "nigger" is a taboo word, they also learn that racism is unacceptable. When Blizzard, at Blizzcon, portrays as acceptable using the word "faggot" the way corpsegrinder did, it sends the opposite message (whether or not the guy in the video or blizzard meant to).
Just to put this out there: I never learned that racism was unacceptable through knowing that certain words were taboo. I learned that racism was unacceptable through being taught about human rights and dignity, and that because racism was unacceptable so were certain words (although it still seems to be taken for granted that my use of particular words necessarily entails my being racist, which isn't the case).
Yeah, what are gay people worried about? Being beaten, ostracized, abandoned by their parents, or even killed for their sexual orientation doesn't seem like a big deal. I mean look at what alliance has to deal with! Their racials are underpowered!
Yea, because that's what this guy stands for. Hey, you know what, people of my (racism/sexuality/whatever) are getting beaten somewhere, so I'm gonna shout at a wall mart greeter because he was grumpy, doesn't he know how much people with a similarity to me somewhere suffer because of something? What an asshole. How dare he be so insensitive.
By the way, I hope everyone crying here realises that during Blizzcon, the video segment was censored. I repeat, the words were not heard or broadcast on stage at all. They were just found in the full length video
On October 29 2011 08:06 Gnosis wrote: No one said discrimination based on sexual orientation was acceptable, least of all Blizzard. Was this irresponsible on Blizzards part? Sure (it was vulgar). Was it anti-gay on their part? No, it wasn't.
I never accused blizzard of SAYING sexual discrimination was acceptable. I accused them of perpetuating a social norm that makes me uncomfortable.
We all know that no one at blizzard would have played the video if the guy called alliance players "niggers" or "spics." Yet when he calls them "faggot" and "homo" it gets played at blizzcon. Why? The obvious implication is that to the people who decided to play this video, "faggot" is tolerable while "nigger" is not.
We all know that no one at blizzard would have played the video if the guy called alliance players "niggers" or "spics." Yet when he calls them "faggot" and "homo" it gets played at blizzcon. Why? The obvious implication is that to the people who decided to play this video, "faggot" is tolerable while "nigger" is not.
By the way, I hope everyone crying here realises that during Blizzcon, the video segment was censored. I repeat, the words were not heard or broadcast on stage at all. They were just found in the full length video
I'm just going to repeat this until people shut up about how it got played at blizzcon
There's also a big, big difference between calling someone a "faggot" and calling someone a "nigger" or "spic", wanna know why? Because of the magic of language, words change over time, and faggot is rarely associated with homosexuals anymore (aside from when people want to feel offended again). It's just turned into a regular insult, especially on the internet where people aren't so afraid of making people with a thin skin feel offended. The other two words, on the other hand, are still solely used as a derogatory term for blacks/hispanics. You don't say "that spic!" when someone white cuts you off in traffic because it's not used as a regular insult. You should go watch this south park episode on that if you haven't already, it might teach you a thing or two.
I'm normally a really accepting guy, and I don't care about your race or sex or sexuality, but I'm having serious difficulty not developing irrational hatred for people that get offended by everything after all these posts on TL lately.
On October 29 2011 08:33 Gnosis wrote: Just to put this out there: I never learned that racism was unacceptable through knowing that certain words were taboo. I learned that racism was unacceptable through being taught about human rights and dignity, and that because racism was unacceptable so were certain words
Exactly. You learned that because bigotry is unacceptable, so are certain words. This lesson reinforces the original lesson that bigotry is unacceptable. Also, remember WHY bigotry makes certain words unacceptable: words can communicate more than we intend. By not using slurs trivially, and expressing discomfort when others do, we perpetuate an environment where bigotry is not tolerated. By doing the opposite, we suggest that bigotry is acceptable.
I can't believe so many ppl are actually offended by this. When i used to play wow i was alliance and i actually find that video pretty funny you know why? because i am reasonable guy and i understand he is just passionate about wow, he doesn't hate me because i played alliance and he doesn't hate people because they are gay. I'm so tired of these "sensitive" ppl with no sense of humor or self-esteem always making issues where there are none just stop making the world a depressing place.
On October 29 2011 08:33 Gnosis wrote: Just to put this out there: I never learned that racism was unacceptable through knowing that certain words were taboo. I learned that racism was unacceptable through being taught about human rights and dignity, and that because racism was unacceptable so were certain words
Exactly. You learned that because bigotry is unacceptable, so are certain words. This lesson reinforces the original lesson that bigotry is unacceptable. Also, remember WHY bigotry makes certain words unacceptable: words can communicate more than we intend. By not using slurs trivially, and expressing discomfort when others do, we perpetuate an environment where bigotry is not tolerated. By doing the opposite, we suggest that bigotry is acceptable.
Sure, certain words when used in context. But I don't agree that the use or non-use of certain words fosters a particular environment (necessarily). It can, but it doesn't always have to. Making the use of particular words taboo (and arbitrarily at that) is a superficial solution. I couldn't care less how most people talk, and if I disagree with some one I respect their right to talk the way they want.
By the way, I hope everyone crying here realises that during Blizzcon, the video segment was censored. I repeat, the words were not heard or broadcast on stage at all. They were just found in the full length video
i am stunned by the amount of people who think that faggot and gay have "evolved over time" into meaning something other than a slur targeted at a group. repetition doesn't dull the meaning, it only numbs us to the weight of the term. if you only feel comfortable speaking that way in certain settings, that is because that space condones that behavior, not because it is acceptable
On October 29 2011 07:14 Gnosis wrote: But I still wouldn't take him as being anti-black or antisemitic, just as I didn't take him as being anti-gay.
The issue here is bigger than whether or not this corpsegrinder guy is anti-gay. By playing a video of him throwing the words "faggot" and "homo" around at blizzcon, Blizzard perpetuated a social norm: discrimination the basis of race and religion is not tolerated, yet discrimination based on sexual orientation is acceptable. This is a message that hurts people whether it's intended or not.
Watch the video. He didn't say any of those things. Everything was bleeped out.
EPT
