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sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed.
User was warned for this post
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Money's kind of useless when there's no world left.
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On October 27 2011 09:47 buickskylark wrote:I think you misunderstood me. My question has nothing to do with extinction. I merely wanted to know why animal cruelty isn't a valid excuse against doing it.
Because the animal cruelty angle only leads to an argument that we should harvest shark fins humanely.
That doesn't address the huge ecological problems presented by extinction.
On October 27 2011 09:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:Lol okay.. so you're saying sharks should be caught, fins cut off and then thrown back into the ocean bleeding and drowning ending with a cruel death? Whats the different if I eat bald eagles because it's my culture? It's still fucked for me to kill an eagle .
The fact that you consider it fucked is based on your own sociocultural biases. I could care less that it's "messed up" for you to eat a bald eagle. Just like you could probably care less that Indians think it's "messed up" for you to eat cows.
It is, however, an objectively real problem that bald eagles are endangered. Same goes for sharks.
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^1 billion people. how many weddings and 'special celebrations' do you think 1 billion people could have a year?
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On October 27 2011 09:42 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:01 sevencck wrote:On October 26 2011 20:57 T.O.P. wrote:On October 26 2011 20:37 Suisen wrote:But Chinese will defend anything China even if they actually disagree, apparently. Don't give me this fake loyalty. The more I learn about China, the less I respect it. Once again, an example of ignorance. Good Cantonese soup cost a lot of money to make. Even the soup my dad makes regularly costs $50-100 a pot. Also, your comment makes no sense. He said no soup is worth more than 5 dollar. You call that ignorance. It's his fucking opinion. Your argument just proves his point. You are both wrong and ignorant as well as unable to understand the reasoning of others or express your own opinion using reasoning. He's ignorant because he has never even tasted the soup before. Opinions can be ignorant. On October 26 2011 20:37 Suisen wrote:
Knowing the prize would spoil the taste when eating it. Especially when you realize the context is in a third world country. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. On October 26 2011 20:37 Suisen wrote:
I hear the noises of Han Chinese bring good luck as a good luck charm. And the good news is, there's a Han Chinese for every one of us. Let's harvest them as a Chinese doesn't really need a nose. Immoral? Nooo, don't infringe on culture. If that's your culture, then cool. Hunting Han chinese seems much more dangerous than hunting sharks though. Since we're freely expressing our opinions on the subject, I think China is a backwards ass country trying to hang on to too much archaic tradition while attempting to modernize its economy within a political framework that doesn't work. There's a huge social revolution coming in that country, and I can't wait for it to happen. Too many human beings are being abused and exploited, and they need to do something about it. While I'd love to write out a multi paged critique of the current Chinese government, I'll keep this about shark fin soup in Canada. Frankly, if you're calling people ignorant for not having tried the soup or knowing about it, then you're missing the point. This thread isn't about culinary criticism or how much a dish costs, it's about Canada (finally) being willing to critique another culture and decide what we want in our country and what we do not. Shark fin soup should be banned outright in Canada (and any other civilized country for that matter). Period. This isn't a new issue. I'm amazed by how much mileage Gordan Ramsey's documentary has given it, but people have been talking about this for 20+ years. The harvesting methods employed to support the demand for what amounts to little more than a status symbol are barbaric and unsustainable. When you say things like we're ignorant for stepping on Chinese cultural traditions, it really shows me where you're at. China consumes a number of different items from endangered species as aphrodisiacs and status symbols. Guess what? A culture that values status and stupidity above responsible and sustainable environmental policy should be critiqued and told no. This is Canada, we're allowed to form policy around what we feel is most inclusive, not what ignorant and environmentally unaware Chinese people on the other side of the globe have done for the past 2000 years and want to continue for no other reason than tradition. When you have a billion people in your country who want to consume tiger penis or rhinoceros horn because they stupidly believe it to be an aphrodisiac while the environment suffers then its time to sober up. You said in a previous post that Chinese think westerners are ignorant. That's nice, except that Canada has a very good human rights record, is one of the world leaders in alternative energy research, and over the past several hundred years has forged a very nice stable inclusive society that people want to live in. When Chinese people (who live in a country with a very poor human rights record, a country that cuts corners to produce unsafe and hazardous products, a country with little to no long term plans for sustainable or green energy, a country that only 25 years ago ran over protesting students with tanks, and a country that would rather keep their embarrassing screw ups secret rather than fixing the underlying problem) tell us we're ignorant for being critical of a negative environmentally irresponsible aspect of their culture -- even after how committed we've shown ourselves to be about respecting other cultures, we can rightfully ignore and laugh at them. I support the ban 100%, I wish our country as a whole would ban it, I hope other countries follow suit, and if certain Chinese people don't understand why it's important that certain nations show leadership and take a stance on this important issue, then we don't need them in our country. Posts like these make me ashamed of Canadians like you. The racism runs high in any thread that has to do with China. It's especially sad to see how xenophobic people can get, and generalize stereotypes to an entire culture of people. Considering the current nation was built by Immigrants, one would think that people would be more accepting. I like how you talk of Canadians and put them on a moral highground. What right do we have to point fingers at other cultures and act as we've done no wrong? Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:01 sevencck wrote:
You said in a previous post that Chinese think westerners are ignorant. That's nice, except that Canada has a very good human rights record, is one of the world leaders in alternative energy Really? Like Chinese Head Taxes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_tax_(Canada). Anti-Asian labour laws, the White Woman's labour law. http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/yee_clun.htmlJapanese Canadian Internment Camps. "Residential" Schools where it was essentially forced assimilation/conversion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_systemThis is just a few that pop up in mind. If I actually researched, I'm sure I can find much more. As much as it pains me to discuss the unsavory actions of Canada, the xenophobic hate that some Canadians show is a disgrace to the country. Unless you were of native descent, we're all children of Immigrants in Canada. What it comes down to is that no country has the right to point fingers and look down their nose on the action of others.
Frankly, I think you're being a little heavy handed in evaluating me as a racist. There's a difference between racism and cultural critique. I'm very critical of certain aspects of Chinese culture, and I feel I have every right to be, particularly in defense against being summed up as an ignorant westerner for holding the view that I do. That doesn't mean I'm racist or xenophobic. It might interest you to know that my father is an immigrant to Canada. You're ashamed of me for saying that we don't need people in our country who value status symbols above environmentally sustainable practices? Well I'm sorry but I stand by that statement. It wasn't made based on racial considerations, I would apply it equally to any culture. Yes, I said Chinese people, because the issue of shark fin soup applies almost exclusively to Chinese people.
I didn't say Canada had a perfect human rights record, I said they had a very good one, and I think that's fair.
And I disagree strongly with your last statement. I think we can and should be willing to judge the actions of others. We already do so in so many ways, yet we're afraid to across cultural lines? I don't think we should be in instances where there is so much at stake.
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On October 27 2011 09:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:47 buickskylark wrote:I think you misunderstood me. My question has nothing to do with extinction. I merely wanted to know why animal cruelty isn't a valid excuse against doing it. Because the animal cruelty angle only leads to an argument that we should harvest shark fins humanely. That doesn't address the huge ecological problems presented by extinction.
I don't think we're arguing against the same thing here. I'll just drop it.
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On October 27 2011 09:50 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:45 Chairman Ray wrote:On October 27 2011 09:38 Kiarip wrote:On October 27 2011 09:35 sunprince wrote:On October 27 2011 09:32 Kiarip wrote:Who cares if there are none left?
There are several species going extinct every single day, and we don't care about it. "Who cares if police stop murders. There are tons of murders going on every day, and we don't care about it." Your argument is pretty bad. We all understand that the wave of human-induced extinctions is harmful to the environment, and we should try to stop them as best we can. The fact that we fail sometimes does not imply we should give up entirely. let's look at them on a case by case basis: there's no reason taht killing sharks is bad for the environment. Sharks eat everything that we eat, we're replacing them as preditors on the same food chain, so there's no danger of something underneath them in the food chain overpopulating the oceans. If the ecosystem were that easy, being a biologist would not require a college education. Sharks play a very sophisticated role within a marine ecosystem that no type of fishing or hunting could replicate. Everything from depth of water sharks swim in, to their hunting patterns, and even the parasites under their skin, play key roles in maintaining balance to marine ecosystems. That's why it is so important to preserve every predatory species, even if we have the ability to control populations of their prey. Well there's still a cost benefit-analysis to be done here... How much money are we willing to spend to make sure they dont go extinct? This isn't an example of a "must accomplish at all cost" type of mission, and simply banning it won't stop it. The more you try to control shark-finning, the more expensive the fins will become, and the more profitable it will be to actually do it. Demand is what controls the supply. You can't feasibly control the supply of shark fins by regulation, simply by decreasing the demand, and you can't decrease the demand if people are willing to even more for the friggin' sharks
The ban is just a stopgap measure, it would turn into the Elephant/Ivory thing. For actual long term effect, the Chinese would need to actually change that part of their culture. Perhaps socially engineer something to replace it.
But who knows, I'm Canadian after all. Some people don't seem to like us here.
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On October 27 2011 09:51 FishForThought wrote:
sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed.
Oh glad at least one of us majors in biology. Lets eat man's best friend while were at it.
You're first argument is completely retarded. It is their habitat and that has nothing to do with extinct or anything. It doesn't matter if it's part of their "regular diet" BRB gonna go eat some endangered animal once a year.. its only one animal right? and then let the whole population of a country do the same. 1,331,460,000 for china.
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On October 27 2011 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:51 FishForThought wrote:
sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed. Oh glad at least one of us majors in biology. Lets eat man's best friend while were at it. You're first argument is completely retarded. It is their habitat and that has nothing to do with extinct or anything. It doesn't matter if it's part of their "regular diet" BRB gonna go eat some endangered animal once a year.. its only one animal right? and then let the whole population of a country do the same. 1,331,460,000 for china.
What's wrong with eating dogs? there's a ton of them.
edit: there's also a ton of cockroaches, if I asked what's wrong with me eating cockroaches I'd get a bunch of "ewwws..." but morally? "No, go ahead, carry on."
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On October 27 2011 09:56 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote:On October 27 2011 09:51 FishForThought wrote:
sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed. Oh glad at least one of us majors in biology. Lets eat man's best friend while were at it. You're first argument is completely retarded. It is their habitat and that has nothing to do with extinct or anything. It doesn't matter if it's part of their "regular diet" BRB gonna go eat some endangered animal once a year.. its only one animal right? and then let the whole population of a country do the same. 1,331,460,000 for china. What's wrong with eating dogs? there's a ton of them.
What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
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im Chinese and i actually support the ban. however, TL has too much anti-Chinese beliefs so please still be respectful to our culture.
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On October 27 2011 09:58 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:56 Kiarip wrote:On October 27 2011 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote:On October 27 2011 09:51 FishForThought wrote:
sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed. Oh glad at least one of us majors in biology. Lets eat man's best friend while were at it. You're first argument is completely retarded. It is their habitat and that has nothing to do with extinct or anything. It doesn't matter if it's part of their "regular diet" BRB gonna go eat some endangered animal once a year.. its only one animal right? and then let the whole population of a country do the same. 1,331,460,000 for china. What's wrong with eating dogs? there's a ton of them. What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
Because we as humans don't want to be eaten?
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On October 27 2011 09:58 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 09:56 Kiarip wrote:On October 27 2011 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote:On October 27 2011 09:51 FishForThought wrote:
sharks' own instinct is causing their own extinction. The mother eat their young after giving birth, and the sharks in the mother's womb eat their siblings.
Not to mention shark fin isn't even part of chinese's regular diet. The price of sharkfins only allows consumption at special events or celebrations like a wedding. So, I would really like to see what evidence they have that shows human's fishing is causing sharks' extinction.
On another note, i would also love to see them compensate the Chinese restaurant owners by allowing consumption of dogs. Dogs are far from extinction, I don't see why they wouldn't let dogs be consumed. Oh glad at least one of us majors in biology. Lets eat man's best friend while were at it. You're first argument is completely retarded. It is their habitat and that has nothing to do with extinct or anything. It doesn't matter if it's part of their "regular diet" BRB gonna go eat some endangered animal once a year.. its only one animal right? and then let the whole population of a country do the same. 1,331,460,000 for china. What's wrong with eating dogs? there's a ton of them. What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
Food is food. All living things must eat to survive. There are some species that are unnecessary to kill for food, which is mostly unethical to eat. If one society views dogs as food, there is nothing you can say to prove its wrong. Plus, the breed of dog they eat are a special kind bred only for eating. There not the type of dogs you have at home.
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On October 27 2011 09:58 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Show nested quote +
What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
Because we as humans don't want to be eaten?
To be fair I don't believe the Dog is too fond of being eaten as well
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On October 27 2011 10:02 Daedra wrote:Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 09:58 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Show nested quote +
What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
Because we as humans don't want to be eaten?
To be fair I don't believe the Dog is too fond of being eaten as well
Yes, and if it had the power to make this choice, I'm sure it would refuse.
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I recently got the chance to dive on a coral reef in the Florida Keys and swim with Black Tip Reef, and Nurse sharks. Gorgeous animals and really really cool. The thought of what people do to them and then throw them back to die is disgusting. I don't have an issue with controlled fishing for sharks to make a traditional food and just killing the shark humanely after you catch it.
However catching the shark, cutting off its fins while it is still alive and throwing back in the ocean to slowly bleed or suffocate to death is horrifying. Why the hell do they even do that? Why not just kill the shark quickly and use the entire thing. I don't get it, its a completely idiotic thing to do, not to mention cruel.
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It's not racist to criticize an aspect of culture that you take issue with.
What it comes down to is that no country has the right to point fingers and look down their nose on the action of others.
Cultural relativism is silly. You're arguing that there's no intrinsic morality in any action, only what a culture ascribes to it - well, that's questionable when a culture decides it's moral to commit genocide or have extremely brutal social policies.
This sort of issue can be examined far more objectively based on sustainability, and whether the ban would achieve the goal of managing that.
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On October 27 2011 10:03 Rasun wrote:
I recently got the chance to dive on a coral reef in the Florida Keys and swim with Black Tip Reef, and Nurse sharks. Gorgeous animals and really really cool. The thought of what people do to them and then throw them back to die is disgusting. I don't have an issue with controlled fishing for sharks to make a traditional food and just killing the shark humanely after you catch it.
However catching the shark, cutting off its fins while it is still alive and throwing back in the ocean to slowly bleed or suffocate to death is horrifying. Why the hell do they even do that? Why not just kill the shark quickly and use the entire thing. I don't get it, its a completely idiotic thing to do, not to mention cruel.
The biggest issue is that what they are doing isn't sustainable. The way things are going, they will run out. The sharks won't be around anymore, then they don't even have anything to poach. Chinese culture was able to get along just fine for a really long time because they didn't have the level of technology or amount of investment going into these operations as they do now. As it currently stands, we are able to fish more than we should be able to. Trying to get as much fish as we can over the course of the year will make it so that over the next 10 years, we will have less fish than if we had exercised restraint.
That's part of what bothers me the most. They aren't even being intelligent about it. Its just people thinking "money money money" and not thinking about how sustainable it is.
You can at least be at peace knowing that eventually, the people who are doing this are going to lose their livelihood. The ecosystems will collapse and these fisherman will be without jobs.
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10387 Posts
On October 27 2011 10:02 Daedra wrote:Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 09:58 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Show nested quote +
What's wrong with eating humans? there's a ton of them and then some. Doesn't make it right.
Because we as humans don't want to be eaten?
To be fair I don't believe the Dog is too fond of being eaten as well
Neither does Chicken or COWWWWW??
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On October 27 2011 10:04 Dfgj wrote:It's not racist to criticize an aspect of culture that you take issue with.
Depends why you take issue with it. If you're against it simply because it's different, while defending analogous practices in your own culture, then it's probably racist.
For example, there's a number of people in this thread who would like to ban shark fins, but don't seem to be taking issue with the cruelties of the Western meat industry.
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EPT
