On October 27 2011 03:40 Kokujin wrote: I don't think enough of you understand how important shark fins are to my Chinese community. Here is a small example of what will happen in Toronto, California, and everywhere shark fin soup is taken away.
We have addressed how cultural norms do not necessarily make them ok. It just shows how ignorant she is about the fact that shark numbers are decreasing. "look at all the fish" she says. No lady, just no.
Im sure you are an advocate of the tiger penis being used in a "cultural" soup too, even though that species almost became extinct because of it.
Just how you say enough of us do not "understand" how important it is to their community, you community does not understand how important sharks are to the marine ecosystem. This point alone makes your people just as ignorant as those you are trying to accuse.
edit: dude below me, if you really dont understand the problem then maybe you should actually READ the thread to find out what people are arguing about. FFS
I don't see where the big deal about shark fins is. Are we against it because WE don't want to eat them?
I have more empathy for mammals than for sharks. Mammals are often being trapt in tiny places, cows for example abused for their milk and breeded into absurd forms and proportions (like our normal cows).
If we caught cows in free wilderness, like we do with sharks, we would totally advertise the fact that the cows had a free and happy life. And considering the wastefulness: Since we invented biofuel (while many human beings are still starving), I have lost all of my hypocritical awareness for wastefulness.
Ban meat, or don't ban meat, but double standards suck. edit: Dude above me: From what I could gather this thread is about whether hunting sharks for their fins (or prohibiting it) is okay, or not. I watched the "documentary" on page 1 (or whatever this form of biased infotainment is supposed to be called). I read the last few pages as well and read about the marine eco systems. Meanwhile you are talking about tiger penises and quote fake viral videos to use them as an argument.
I didn't touch on the subject of the shark being an endangered species, because I could not find a counter argument for that. I just wanted to point out that our habits of trapping and killing animals aren't better than killing wild animals (like sharks). Both is cruel and unnecessary. And wastefulness considering the "wasted food" (throwing the fin-less body back into the sea) isn't a strong argument either. I did that because arguments like those keep popping up, for example in the original post and in the video. So please stop being so dismissive.
On October 27 2011 03:03 Thrill wrote: Is there anyone under 50 who is against this law?
/raise hand. 30y.o. and veggie from 17 to 23.
The ethics about "cruel" is a pure joke. Ban all meat or deal with it.
The only valid point imho is the sustainability of the species. I want to be able to eat that for years and my kids to have some. Strictly enforced fishings quotas should be enough, no need for a full ban.
On October 27 2011 03:35 LeoPenrose wrote: Chicken broth and a gelatinous goo.
...Are you f-ing kidding? This doesn't even come close to a respectable dish, regardless of the moral and ethical problems attached to it.
You obviously never had some (in a decent, true chinese restaurant). It's absolutely delicious.
Good fucking riddance. The primary reason why Chinese people even order the soup is due to its cost and extravagance. The addition of shark fin to the soup doesn't add anything to it at all beyond some texture. It's like high-priced desserts that have gold flakes in it. It's one of the most annoying aspects of Chinese culture, which is how it encourages meekness at some times, but at other times encourages those with money to flaunt it for no utilitarian purpose. The funny thing is, there are so many people that "flaunt it" that the nice things and high-priced meals really have no meaning in places like Hong Kong or amongst Chinese-Americans where >80% of the Chinese people there can easily afford these things. It's just a waste of money and a waste of sharks for the sake of ego.
Yes, I understand how Chinese people can feel as if they are being singled out, and that feeling is totally justified, but it doesn't change the fact that these practices like eating Shark fin, buying furniture made from nearly extinct trees...etc, are wasteful and destructive to the environment. I also feel the same way about other cultures' practices, like how certain European countries poach endangered sturgeons for caviar.
On October 27 2011 02:22 Malpraxis wrote: Hello, Team Liquid.
I have been lurking this site for some years now, and my god, my first post won't be about Starcraft. You see, I am a biology major and I've worked with sharks and rays personally. Urged by this thread, I thought I'd post some ecological/purely scientific insight about this very pressing issue. The thread seems to have turned into a discussion about ethical principles, and while these are important, you cannot ignore the natural history of the animals themselves. Brace yourselves for a wall of text.
You see, marine food chains and webs do not function like terrestrial ecosystems at all. On land, primary producers like plants make up the majority of available biomass, while each upper level decreases in biomass due to energy being lost in each organism's metabolism. In the sea, however, the primary producers are consumed so fast that the energy pyramid is inverted. Top predators (like sharks) make up for most biomass in the average marine ecosystem. This has several implications.
Top-down control of population size becomes much more important, since there are way more predator-prey relationships. The disappearance or decline of a shark species thus, has almost unpredictable, complex impacts on the ecosystem. For example populations of the species predated by sharks (which are many) would at first skyrocket, since they'll have no pressure. As these large populations consume all their limiting resources, they too would decline in time, or if their growth is too rapid, they could even become locally extinct (ecologists call this an oscillating event). This process then repeats itself in the lower links of the food chain. To make a long story short, this leads to a progressive loss of diversity in the seas and an explosion of jellyfish populations.
Fishing is not like other forms of food production. Animals aren't grown for the purpose of human consumption, but rather they are harvested from the environment. This is like me going to the forest, then killing and eating a grizzly bear. Sharks and rays also have another thing that makes them even more vulnerable. Most species are viviparous: They breed slowly, have a slow sexual maturation (30+ years in deep-sea species), and produce few young per litter. They cannot be sustainably harvested at the current rates we are doing it, and not without some kind of control.
So...sharks are important. Their decline could lead to a collapse of all fisheries in general. That said, the sharking industry is also the job of thousands of people who will lose their way of life if this business continues unchecked. So you see, the conservation of sharks is necessary to preserve them both as a species and as a resource. Breeding sharks in captivity is an unreal solution. What we need are temporary bans, intelligent use of the resource, using the WHOLE SHARK giving the guys some time to recuperate and fulfill their role in the ecosystem. Because right now, it is pretty much a massacre. Not only from finning, but also as bycatch from other fisheries (sharks and rays make up to 95% of the bycatch in shrimp trawling, at least in my country).
Finally, sharks are an old group. They've been around since before the dinosaurs, they have survived pretty much every mass extinction, and the pressure of every sea monster that has ever lived. Wouldn't it be just lame if we were their end?
Thank you.
Edit: Fixed some spelling/grammar errors
It is people like you that continue to bring me to this website. You are a star in my book. Sadly, most people are going to miss your post. :/
On October 27 2011 01:44 jester- wrote: Bah, sustainability is really the issue here.
The difference between a pig/cow/chicken slaughterhouse is those farmers raise their own stock to slaughter or purchase them from elsewhere. They don't keep taking and taking and taking without EVER putting anything back.
The majority of every other meat we eat comes from either sustainable, regulated industry or farm produced product. Fish farms, cow farms, pig farms, etc are very different than going out into the ocean and killing a gigantic portion of an already low population species and not replacing them OR letting them replace their numbers themselves (see: crab fishing, hunting for fur).
The comparisons in here to other sources of food are weak, very weak.
sustainable in population perhaps, but these are domesticated animals that don't contribute to the ecosystem anyway. besides, taking things from the same ecosystem, you seriously believe the rate we're fishing now is sustainable?
let's talk about sustainability in farms in terms of a ecological footprint. how much co2 emissions do you think comes from the farming of domestic animals at the scale of feeding a growing population? think feed, land for grazing, health, transport, killing, packaging, and more transport? you think that's sustainable? how is this any less of a problem than the ecological damage of killing sharks?
this ban = waste of time
So, your argument from the last two posts is basically the battle isn't worth taking the time to win, because it won't automatically win the war. Good argument.
how's that my argument? i'm not against the ban at all, in fact i've said several times that i'm for it. but the bandwagoners who jump on saying this is a great victory for humanity in battling this unethical/inhumane killing of sharks are grossly misinformed and often contradictory in their argument. i point out examples by which our daily consumption of meat and fish violate these very principles that people are hating about shark fin harvesting.
i'm arguing against the reasoning behind this law, and the way that it's being sold to the public in toronto - perhaps you missed that part. this is a small amount of good that amounts to nothing more than a vote grab by politicians - of course no one's stepping up to regulate the meat industry or overfishing, but hey, shark fins are a niche enough topic that can make them look good in a time when toronto politicians look nothing but fools.
Okay, so if a politician looks good by doing something, maybe even inflating the issue to make themselves look better from doing it than they should, there's even LESS reason to do it. Am I understanding your argument correctly now? Do you not realize how childish that is?
Would you be pouting if the guy that creates the cure for cancer made profit from it? Or are we only allowed to make profit from things like entertainment products?
ok. you're having serious difficulties understanding my argument. let me spell it out for you rather than you putting words into my mouth.
1. i'm for regulating fishing in a way that is intelligent, and properly sustains the marine ecosystem - in this case, i agree with the fact that shark fishing is causing shark numbers to dwindle, and needs to be regulated.
2. i'm AGAINST the fact that they are limiting this to shark FIN. the shark fishing industry in canada, as well as the fishing industry in general pick up sharks as well, albeit not just for their fins and don't "torture" them in a way that the chinese practice does. but the end point to all arguments here is that the practice isn't sustainable. so okay, we prevent shark fin collection/possession/sale. that's a fraction of the overall damage to the shark population from overall fishing. why is shark fishing not regulated as a whole? why is it just FINS?
3. i'm against the fact that the politicians are spinning this into a front page story. ban shark fins in canada? sure - why not regulate shark fishing in canada? while we're at it, why aren't we regulating other grossly unsustainable food practices - overfishing, meat farming, etc? why is it just shark FINS? this is a disgraceful spin of a small amount of good, that really solves little in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really even solve the problem of shark populations.
1) Cool
2) This is why I brought up the battle/war analogy. You can't win the war in just one battle. Give it time.
3) This is why I made the comment about you being butthurt over politicians and again with the battle/war analogy.
You can't save the world in a day. Pissing and moaning about every small step, because it wasn't big enough is just childish.
wait, you're saying... they can ban shark fins, but not shark fishing? they can hurt one group of businessmen, but not another?
you're okay with this? you're okay with doing something half way through, half assed, and call it a temporary solution because it'll take too long to do everything?
their reason behind this is that it's inhumane, or it's detrimental to the marine ecosystem, but instead of tackling the REAL problem, they go after a niche group that don't cater to their own interests, and doesn't really solve anything in the big picture. i'm trying to explain that this is why there are some angry people out there, and all you can do is call me butthurt? right.
No, I'm saying get the stick out of your ass and enjoy small victories when you can. Only a tiny fraction of proposed legislation actually make it through the political process of ANY country, let alone a modernized Western one where people have long, open debates about various topics. The leverage of the 'inhumaneness' of fishing for shark fins is what got this one through easier. Nailing the ENTIRE shark fishing market has bigger implications and requires more effort. Give it time.
The legislation is hardly a victory if it does nothing to solve the problem of overexploitation of sharks. Even if many cities ban shark fins it will be unlikely to put a dent on the harvesting of sharks. The fins will simply get sold in places where it's still legal or be sold illegally. This ban only affects restaurant owners and patrons. Viewing this as some kind of step in the right direction would be akin to climbing a tree and viewing that as a first step to getting to the moon. The point is that the activists, politicians and media are just indulging in hypocrisy and smugness by wasting time on a tiny issue that will likely have no effect on the environment and sustainable development whatsoever.
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It isn't solving the problem at all. I agree there is an issue but this is not the solution to the issue. To use the war analogy, this is a battle in a location that isn't even part of the war, it does nothing to advance anything on any front besides harm restaurants.
On October 27 2011 03:40 relyt wrote: the poachers will definitely not care about the sharks.
Wtf... A long-line cares about nothing. It kills indiscriminately. Reducing the shark fishery to poaching would definitely not make anything worse.
You think the poachers wont use a long-line?
Hold on, time for minds to blow UP!
Thought experiment: hunting elephants for Ivory /tigers for skin /lions for whatever; becomes legal RIGHT NOW, more or less of these animals killed over the next year?
Ofc sharks would still suffer and die to poachers, but in much much muuuuuuuch smaller proportions. This is currently a legal industry in most parts of the world and it's being carried out on an industrial scale.
Criminalization works - it worked for whaling, it would work for blue-fin tunas and it will work for sharks.
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It isn't solving the problem at all. I agree there is an issue but this is not the solution to the issue. To use the war analogy, this is a battle in a location that isn't even part of the war, it does nothing to advance anything on any front besides harm restaurants.
Pretty much. It isn't helping unless it happens practically everywhere else. That and they will find ways around it. -_-;;
On October 26 2011 18:37 kazie wrote: oh the hypocrisy. do these shark lovers know this is exactly what vegetarians think of the whole meat industry? ramsay must be faking disgust in that video cuz i doubt he's that stupid
If you think Ramsay is being a hypocrite here you have to open your eyes.
On October 27 2011 02:22 Malpraxis wrote: Hello, Team Liquid.
I have been lurking this site for some years now, and my god, my first post won't be about Starcraft. You see, I am a biology major and I've worked with sharks and rays personally. Urged by this thread, I thought I'd post some ecological/purely scientific insight about this very pressing issue. The thread seems to have turned into a discussion about ethical principles, and while these are important, you cannot ignore the natural history of the animals themselves. Brace yourselves for a wall of text.
You see, marine food chains and webs do not function like terrestrial ecosystems at all. On land, primary producers like plants make up the majority of available biomass, while each upper level decreases in biomass due to energy being lost in each organism's metabolism. In the sea, however, the primary producers are consumed so fast that the energy pyramid is inverted. Top predators (like sharks) make up for most biomass in the average marine ecosystem. This has several implications.
Top-down control of population size becomes much more important, since there are way more predator-prey relationships. The disappearance or decline of a shark species thus, has almost unpredictable, complex impacts on the ecosystem. For example populations of the species predated by sharks (which are many) would at first skyrocket, since they'll have no pressure. As these large populations consume all their limiting resources, they too would decline in time, or if their growth is too rapid, they could even become locally extinct (ecologists call this an oscillating event). This process then repeats itself in the lower links of the food chain. To make a long story short, this leads to a progressive loss of diversity in the seas and an explosion of jellyfish populations.
Fishing is not like other forms of food production. Animals aren't grown for the purpose of human consumption, but rather they are harvested from the environment. This is like me going to the forest, then killing and eating a grizzly bear. Sharks and rays also have another thing that makes them even more vulnerable. Most species are viviparous: They breed slowly, have a slow sexual maturation (30+ years in deep-sea species), and produce few young per litter. They cannot be sustainably harvested at the current rates we are doing it, and not without some kind of control.
So...sharks are important. Their decline could lead to a collapse of all fisheries in general. That said, the sharking industry is also the job of thousands of people who will lose their way of life if this business continues unchecked. So you see, the conservation of sharks is necessary to preserve them both as a species and as a resource. Breeding sharks in captivity is an unreal solution. What we need are temporary bans, intelligent use of the resource, using the WHOLE SHARK giving the guys some time to recuperate and fulfill their role in the ecosystem. Because right now, it is pretty much a massacre. Not only from finning, but also as bycatch from other fisheries (sharks and rays make up to 95% of the bycatch in shrimp trawling, at least in my country).
Finally, sharks are an old group. They've been around since before the dinosaurs, they have survived pretty much every mass extinction, and the pressure of every sea monster that has ever lived. Wouldn't it be just lame if we were their end?
Thank you.
Edit: Fixed some spelling/grammar errors
great post, thank you! those pictures in the video make me feel sick
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
personally, i really dislike the taste of shark fin's soup and don't have it even when its served in weddings (its almost tradition to have it in wedding banquets here), for animal cruelty and all, but the video is terribly insulting to my culture. It might taste of nothing to you, but its still a delicacy here.
i really don't think they should ban it. Maybe educating people about its effects and encourage people to have it only once in a while if they really have to eat it would be better. there's even like "mock" shark fin's soup here in Singapore i think.
I don't think many people here know about sharks being endangered by this at all.
90% of the worlds shark population is gone. There is only 10% left, is that not an endangered species? It's estimated that 26-73 million sharks are killed a year. Anyone that thinks because of culture that an entire species should be eradicated from the earth, needs help. The fin adds NOTHING to the soup, it's tasteless, you could stick a bunch of noodles in there and get the same result. It's just a status symbol. Exemplification of how pathetic human beings are. The only thing that makes sense for continuing this industry is the jobs it produces. However, at the rate it's going, that's not going to last long.
Do people not understand that sharks are the main predator in the ocean? Without them around it's going to be devastating to the oceans ecosystem. For instance, there are already areas in the world where the seal populations have spiked and now the fish in those areas are obviously being hunted disproportionately and fish populations have dropped significantly. What's going to happen when those fish are gone? The seals die out as well, then what?
On October 26 2011 18:17 Sasquatch wrote: I have no problem with people wanting to eat shark fin soup, but currently it is being harvested in a completely insane and unsustainable manner. Greed tends to ruin any good thing.
For reference, here's a piece Gordon Ramsay did on shark fin harvesting:
personally, i really dislike the taste of shark fin's soup and don't have it even when its served in weddings (its almost tradition to have it in wedding banquets here), for animal cruelty and all, but the video is terribly insulting to my culture. It might taste of nothing to you, but its still a delicacy here.
i really don't think they should ban it. Maybe educating people about its effects and encourage people to have it only once in a while if they really have to eat it would be better. there's even like "mock" shark fin's soup here in Singapore i think.
I don't think many people here know about sharks being endangered by this at all.
90% of the worlds shark population is gone. There is only 10% left, is that not an endangered species? It's estimated that 26-73 million sharks are killed a year. Anyone that thinks because of culture that an entire species should be eradicated from the earth, needs help. The fin adds NOTHING to the soup, it's tasteless, you could stick a bunch of noodles in there and get the same result. It's just a status symbol. Exemplification of how pathetic human beings are.
Do people not understand that sharks are the main predator in the ocean? Without them around it's going to be devastating to the oceans ecosystem. For instance, there are already areas in the world where the seal populations have spiked and now the fish in those areas are obviously being hunted disproportionately and fish populations have dropped significantly. What's going to happen when those fish are gone? The seals die out as well, then what?
I know! We kill the seals then the fish will survive! jk
I have been lurking this site for some years now, and my god, my first post won't be about Starcraft. You see, I am a biology major and I've worked with sharks and rays personally. Urged by this thread, I thought I'd post some ecological/purely scientific insight about this very pressing issue. The thread seems to have turned into a discussion about ethical principles, and while these are important, you cannot ignore the natural history of the animals themselves. Brace yourselves for a wall of text.
You see, marine food chains and webs do not function like terrestrial ecosystems at all. On land, primary producers like plants make up the majority of available biomass, while each upper level decreases in biomass due to energy being lost in each organism's metabolism. In the sea, however, the primary producers are consumed so fast that the energy pyramid is inverted. Top predators (like sharks) make up for most biomass in the average marine ecosystem. This has several implications.
Top-down control of population size becomes much more important, since there are way more predator-prey relationships. The disappearance or decline of a shark species thus, has almost unpredictable, complex impacts on the ecosystem. For example populations of the species predated by sharks (which are many) would at first skyrocket, since they'll have no pressure. As these large populations consume all their limiting resources, they too would decline in time, or if their growth is too rapid, they could even become locally extinct (ecologists call this an oscillating event). This process then repeats itself in the lower links of the food chain. To make a long story short, this leads to a progressive loss of diversity in the seas and an explosion of jellyfish populations.
Fishing is not like other forms of food production. Animals aren't grown for the purpose of human consumption, but rather they are harvested from the environment. This is like me going to the forest, then killing and eating a grizzly bear. Sharks and rays also have another thing that makes them even more vulnerable. Most species are viviparous: They breed slowly, have a slow sexual maturation (30+ years in deep-sea species), and produce few young per litter. They cannot be sustainably harvested at the current rates we are doing it, and not without some kind of control.
So...sharks are important. Their decline could lead to a collapse of all fisheries in general. That said, the sharking industry is also the job of thousands of people who will lose their way of life if this business continues unchecked. So you see, the conservation of sharks is necessary to preserve them both as a species and as a resource. Breeding sharks in captivity is an unreal solution. What we need are temporary bans, intelligent use of the resource, using the WHOLE SHARK giving the guys some time to recuperate and fulfill their role in the ecosystem. Because right now, it is pretty much a massacre. Not only from finning, but also as bycatch from other fisheries (sharks and rays make up to 95% of the bycatch in shrimp trawling, at least in my country).
Finally, sharks are an old group. They've been around since before the dinosaurs, they have survived pretty much every mass extinction, and the pressure of every sea monster that has ever lived. Wouldn't it be just lame if we were their end?
Thank you.
Edit: Fixed some spelling/grammar errors
Good post as well. Conserving sharks should be done for the ecosystems, as well as our future well-being as opposed to some moral animal rights hocus-pocus.
Sharks are endangered animal...even if this is a cultural thing, it shouldn't happen. If you raise the sharks from birth and feed them and never endanger them, that's fine. Otherwise, the fact that something is a cultural tradition doesn't mean we should risk an animal going instinct.
Yeah I know it's not the only reason for the diminishing population of sharks, but every little bit helps.
On October 27 2011 03:40 Kokujin wrote: I don't think enough of you understand how important shark fins are to my Chinese community. Here is a small example of what will happen in Toronto, California, and everywhere shark fin soup is taken away.
This woman is also clinically insane I might add. Not a good representation of the Chinese community unless you're trying to say everyone would act like a belligerent child if they couldn't have any more shark fin soup. They'll deal with it.
On October 26 2011 18:29 wxwx wrote: Is it not possible to breed sharks? Why not just ban hunting if they really are endangered (which I doubt. Sharks are everywhere). Outlawing sale/consumption seems really radical.
I'm chinese and shark fin is really delicious.
you mean the soup? you can pretty much eat shark fin soup without the shark fin and it'd taste exactly the same, the shark fin isnt even involved in any of the cooking, it can be placed after the soup is finished
On October 26 2011 18:29 wxwx wrote: Is it not possible to breed sharks? Why not just ban hunting if they really are endangered (which I doubt. Sharks are everywhere). Outlawing sale/consumption seems really radical.
I'm chinese and shark fin is really delicious.
you mean the soup? you can pretty much eat shark fin soup without the shark fin and it'd taste exactly the same, the shark fin isnt even involved in any of the cooking, it can be placed after the soup is finished
Why is it so important then? Is it just a tradition thing?
I think this is a travesty of legislation that was done for purely political reasons and heads should roll for this. I love eating sharks and anyone who stands in the way of that should be eaten by a shark.
On October 27 2011 03:40 Kokujin wrote: I don't think enough of you understand how important shark fins are to my Chinese community. Here is a small example of what will happen in Toronto, California, and everywhere shark fin soup is taken away.
That's just a childish reaction. You can't justify things that are unethical with culture or religion.
On October 27 2011 03:50 Grumbaki wrote:
/raise hand. 30y.o. and veggie from 17 to 23.
The ethics about "cruel" is a pure joke. Ban all meat or deal with it.
The only valid point imho is the sustainability of the species. I want to be able to eat that for years and my kids to have some. Strictly enforced fishings quotas should be enough, no need for a full ban.
How is it a joke? I don't think breeding animals to eat is unethical as long as you treat them well and kill them in a quick, painless way. I would never buy meat in a store but I buy from people I know personally who breed their own animals on a very small scale.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im7W1AnDmgA)
jk
