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On October 17 2011 18:59 MooseMasher wrote:I see a lot f people saying that drug use is a choice, thus discrimination against them is ok. Is this necessarily true? I for one am convinced we are indeed not "free" in some sense of the word. We are born different, and those inherent differences makes us chose differently put in the same situation. We have created society as it is now, and since it is nowadays omnipresent, it can not be avoided, and thus it WILL affect everyone to an extent that is impossible to comprehend. (It might feel as if I stray off the point here, bare with me tho!  ) Who would I be if me, the same person, was born in the stone age? Certainly I would be quite different, aside from what I would do to survive etc. That makes us collectively responsible for each individual that is born in our society. Our society is in many ways better than it's predecessors, but it's FAR from perfect, and as it's citizens it's our responsibility to improve the system so that tomorrows people may have a better world. As a result, it's universally wrong to judge people based on how they turned out. They would've been different if our world looked different, and casting them out will simply cause our system to converge to some point close to where it is now (but a more extreme one, since it doesn't consider it's flaws). So I'd say: Unless you are convinced our system is near perfection - do not judge. This of course is quite philosophical, but I think it's true, and important to remember. As for what I think of the OP's situation.. My experience with pot and pot heads is that it's important to keep the intake down a little bit. It's too easy if you have easy access to drugs, to use them casually, like, I'm bored -> smoke pot. This makes you do less things that gives you natural happiness, so it will probably make you depressed in the long run. She might need a little help to get there, but I think she might be happier if she smoked less frequently, like once a week tops. Hope it helped 
you are inherently free to do what you want because it was random where you were born. the only way you're not "free" to do something or not is if someone is going to hurt you or kill you if you do or don't do something.
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This has probably already been posted but here is a graph relating the physical harm of a drug to the likelihood of dependence.
Look at alcohol. Now look at tobacco. Now look at cannabis, LSD, and ecstasy.
This is the link to the study made that if anyone's curious/doubting:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673607604644
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I used to worry about this kind of thing, as i experience it from time to time. Just this weekend I was comming from a friends house with the stink on me from smoking pot. He thought he could get some extra money outa me and added the amount wrong when he gave me back my change. Funny thing is tho im a generous tipper and he actually ended up screwing himself out of a buck when I called him on it.
It was funny yet kind of sad.
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On October 18 2011 08:15 Voltaire wrote:This has probably already been posted but here is a graph relating the physical harm of a drug to the likelihood of dependence. Look at alcohol. Now look at tobacco. Now look at cannabis, LSD, and ecstasy. This is the link to the study made that if anyone's curious/doubting: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673607604644
Excellent! Nope I dont think anyone has posted this yet. Graphs like this are SO NECESSARY when having any debate on drugs.
Also, people should check out a documentary called "Grass" made in 1999.
It documents the history of the illegalization of Marijuana in the USA, its very interesting indeed.
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This is quite a complicated question. Using drugs causes me to prejudge people. I make special exceptions for medical marijuana as I believe it has a legitimate use. I believe recreational drug use can be ok you are doing drugs on your own time, in your own place, where no one else is affected. However, I have no drive to hang out with people who use illegal substances unless the contact is in a work/educational setting (as most people attend these sober). The possibility of their use outside of those settings makes me decide to avoid their company, even if they wouldn't be using at that time. The idea that drug use is a "victimless crime" is nice, however not very realistic. Of course people can be using drugs in a controlled environment, where people are not affected. This is not often the case though. Even when used in a controlled environment, drugs can cause issues. Fighting in families, shortage of money, physical as well as psychological addiction, etc.
My thoughts on alcohol and cigarettes are similar, even though they are legal.
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On October 18 2011 07:58 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 07:51 Steel wrote:
Damn I never thought TL would of been so conservative... I don't think people are conservative per se. I think people are just pointing out that it does not fit the definition of "Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience" I think that in general, from most of the interactions I have had, those who make their weed consumption a big part of their lives and their idenitities do hurt those who do not. They promote it in such a way, and act in such a way, people correlate their actions to others like them. This is based on reason and experience. Furthermore, although it may not seem rational to you, to some employers their reasoning is sound. They think "this kid broke the law and smoked weed, he will commit other crimes" Is this necessarily true? No. Is this possibly a misconception? Yeah. But my question is is it without reason or experience? If not, what is it? To me clearly, it is on reason, not experience. But reason need not be correct for you, but only for the man who uses it. The clear counterargument to this is those who argued for social darwinism: Africans were weak and hence put into place. However, this type of discrimination dealt with how somebody was born, and not what choices they made. No matter how good smoking pot is, there is a cost and a benefit to it, and there are costs which must be weighed by anyone who partakes in it. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 07:53 GreEny K wrote:On October 18 2011 07:51 Steel wrote:
Damn I never thought TL would of been so conservative... I thought that at one point, but that's just old news to me now. I live in the bay area, and to me it seems fairly liberal.... I guess it's conservative for europeans, and liberal for americans? Notwithstanding the fact that a majority of tl users are below 40, which makes the average TL member liberal. (according to US voting demographics)
I understand your argument, which entirely made with the assumption that smoking marijuana is illegal because it is wrong. Most users will argue that this is precisely the problem. The whole 'employer' thing...if smoking would be legal my employer wouldn't give a shit about if I smoked or not on friday night, after work. So what your employer really cares about is the fact you are breaking the law. I understand because most laws have a good reason for existence. Not weed though. It should definitely be treated as any other drug. No matter how you put it, alcohol kills more people than weed. Even bringing the whole argument of gangs and selling and addiction and gateway drugs...alcohol will always put more people in the streets. Not enough to make it illegal though. So you're employer won't care that that you spend all weekend drinking...just be functional monday morning.
It's extremely closed-minded to prejudice on a group of people just because they are doing something considered illegal. People don't bother to check what they are actually doing. It's illegal? Then it's bad.
Sure I've seen some people not do well because of drugs, but tbh they didn't go to a state of being A-class students to drug addicts. Come on, a very small percentage of your so-called friends who got addicted to drugs were. They were all wrong-doers, troubled kids...and they found drugs as they grew up and kept being wrong-doers. I'm a student and work for my local city during the summer. The people there, they aren't the smartest around. Many are artists who hold this low-skill jobs because art doesn't pay...many mechanics and people specialized in some type of plants...they pretty much all smoked weed when we go on our annual camping trip. They also are all normal individuals with families and houses and I respect them all. Is it really wrong for them to chill like that? How can you make that argument when such worse drugs are legal?
In the end most people who enjoyed smoking, no matter how smart they were, eventually stopped because of this social prejudice. I think it's disgusting. "It's not a way on drugs it's a war on personal freedoms."
Nobody should have the power to tell me what I can't do inside my home unless I am hurting somebody else. The closest I came to hurting somebody with weed was my parents, who were terrified thinking I would be a failure because of weed. I told them to start worrying when I actually start accumulating failures. I'm doing great in school (doing a double major in math and physics atm, def going to graduate school after) I work part time and I'm in masters league (lol). I also smoke pot more than once a week. I'm really not the only one. I'll have to stop eventually because of drug tests. How the fuck is it fair? NOTHING in the world makes me happier than listening to great music with my friends, chatting. And the feeling is only enhanced because of weed. I also can't sleep when I'm stressed which is not to often but weed really helps me get that good night sleep that permits you to tackle the next day....but I digress. How is it fair for the many like me that such a harmless drug is illegal? Because others are stupid about it? Apply the same rule as alcohol and don't penalize me for other peoples failures!
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On October 18 2011 08:22 Kangbao wrote:
This is quite a complicated question. Using drugs causes me to prejudge people. I make special exceptions for medical marijuana as I believe it has a legitimate use. I believe recreational drug use can be ok you are doing drugs on your own time, in your own place, where no one else is affected. However, I have no drive to hang out with people who use illegal substances unless the contact is in a work/educational setting (as most people attend these sober). The possibility of their use outside of those settings makes me decide to avoid their company, even if they wouldn't be using at that time. The idea that drug use is a "victimless crime" is nice, however not very realistic. Of course people can be using drugs in a controlled environment, where people are not affected. This is not often the case though. Even when used in a controlled environment, drugs can cause issues. Fighting in families, shortage of money, physical as well as psychological addiction, etc.
My thoughts on alcohol and cigarettes are similar, even though they are legal.
smoking weed isn't a victimless crime, cause your mom gets angry? so not cleaning up your room makes your mom a victim too, right?
come on :/
"shortage of money, physical as well as psychological addiction" .. where's the victims? oh you mean when you ask your mom for more money? yea, that's really what you call a victim. poor mom.
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To me, drug use includes alcohol and cigarettes; both are worse alternatives to moderate cannabis.ecstasy, or LSD use. I hate people who judge potheads when they can't get through the day without a cig or multiple drinks.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept cannabis use? It's so widely accepted now and the health concerns are non-existent. If half the people in this thread just smoked a joint with headphones on blasting their favorite music who would still think the same?
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On October 18 2011 08:03 beg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 18 2011 07:48 Bruky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 07:17 beg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 18 2011 06:55 Bruky wrote:
Well for me I just have to wonder why would anybody start taking drugs (even if it is smoking weed) in the first place? Want to feel cool because it is illegal? If this is the case it absolutely has negative impact on my perception of someone.
If it is not the case then you had to start because you wanted to feel better. That's kind of sad so again, it negatively affects my view on a person. I know you cant be happy all the time but to take drugs is just running away from the problems and i dont like this kind of weak aspect of the person.
Well you can say that even about alcohol, but despite that its much easier for me to accept somebody who is drinking once a week than if he for example smokes weed. In my opinion there is a big difference between alcohol and drugs. With drugs you dont have any immediate negative effects. If you drink a little too much you will barf, you will feel sick next day and sometimes you wont remember a thing what happened. You hear so many times people say "i wont drink again". But if you overuse marijuana? You gonna feel thirsty and hungry? Oh come one. So its much more dangerous in this way, because it will have affect negatively in long run.
The last thing i would like to point out is that people usually drink while partying or whatever. And I think its perfect. You wanna have fun with friends or other people. But in the case of drugs i think there are much more cases when you take it/smoke it by yourself. There are for sure some people who drink alone and tons of people who smoke weed only with friends.
I dont wanna say that if somebody smokes weed that it makes him automatically terrible person. But I would like to find out what is the reason behind taking drugs? I just dont see the point and I would like to hear some.
so drinking to party is good, but a joint to relax after work is bad? alcohol is not a drug? oh boy... and i do not feel any negative effects of drinking 5 beers, yet am pretty pissed. ps: drinking to have fun. can't have fun without? weak character, obviously. nah, seriously, get it in your head: alcohol is a drug. you ask for reasons why to take drugs... ask yourself, why do you drink? it's the answer. if your definition of a drug is "gives you negative effects too", ecstacy is not a drug, cause it gives you a hangover. dude. think about it. you're spewing what propaganda has taught you. really. the only reason why you believe in the ways you do, is because television always makes a difference between drugs and alcohol. there's no difference, trust me. i've tried both. Yeah, drinking at party is good at the sense that it actually improves your social relationship with people. On the other hand smoking weed leads to a solitude. If you smoke it, you will feel fine and you wont need to interact with other people, cause you gonna feel good by yourself. Alcohol doesnt work this way. You wont feel better after drinking by yourself. Thats the main difference at least for me. I dont wanna talk about what is drug or what isnt. Its pointless anyway. The important part is how it affects you. + Show Spoiler +ps: drinking to have fun. can't have fun without? weak character, obviously. Not rly. As stated before. Alcohol doesnt work as drugs do. Alcohol is not a way how to have fun but how to have more fun. But drugs satisfy you just by taking it. I dont need to ask myself why i drink, because i dont :o) I dont drink, smoke or take drugs. I just dont see the reason. But people drink to have "more fun", but drug users take it to "feel fine". I would like to belive my view on alcohol and drugs is based on observation and experience. Maybe i am wrong, but nobody could prove me wrong yet. you say drugs are substances that you take to just "feel fine", but look at cocaine, ecstacy, mushrooms, amphetamines... none of these just make you "feel fine". you use cocaine to grow balls on a party, ecstacy and amphetamines to dance all night, mushrooms to introspect, weed to be creative... none of these substances are used to make you "feel fine". except for weed and alcohol. yes, alcohol, cause a shitload of people do drink alcohol just to feel fine. it's called drowning your sorrow. it is very very common. come on, i have proven you wrong now.
Well yeah, about feeling fine i was talking about marihuana, hasish, heroine and so on.
But there are definately drugs that works different for example extasy or cocaine. I can totally agree that it works similiary like alcohol but again, there is big difference between these drugs and alcohol. And its mainly in afteraffects. If you drink a little too much you gonna barf, your head gonna hurt and you find out through this that alcohol is BAD. And many people gonna say "im never drinking again"
But in case of taking drugs you just gonna feel depressed and u can start feeling like you wont be able to feel good without it.
In the case of drowning your sorrow. You are totally right, but the main difference is that you usually wont drink for flong period of time because of bad afteraffects. But if you end up in a state that you must drink to feel good then you suffer from addiction and in this time there is of course no difference if you are addicted to alcohol or to drugs. But the difference is that there are much higher chance to become addicted from taking drugs than from drinking an alcohol. And thats because the nature of drugs is different. The main purpose people take them (and why they wont stop taking them) is to feel fine (even if its not the main reason why they tried it, but it comes to it in near future like with cocaine).
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instead of blabing the same things, how about you take a look at the graph on THE SAME PAGE and see if alchool is really not addictive substance..
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come on, i have proven you wrong now.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, about feeling fine i was talking about marihuana, hasish, heroine and so on.
But there are definately drugs that works different for example extasy or cocaine. I can totally agree that it works similiary like alcohol but again, there is big difference between these drugs and alcohol. And its mainly in afteraffects. If you drink a little too much you gonna barf, your head gonna hurt and you find out through this that alcohol is BAD. And many people gonna say "im never drinking again"
But in case of taking drugs you just gonna feel depressed and u can start feeling like you wont be able to feel good without it.
In the case of drowning your sorrow. You are totally right, but the main difference is that you usually wont drink for flong period of time because of bad afteraffects. But if you end up in a state that you must drink to feel good then you suffer from addiction and in this time there is of course no difference if you are addicted to alcohol or to drugs. But the difference is that there are much higher chance to become addicted from taking drugs than from drinking an alcohol. And thats because the nature of drugs is different. The main purpose people take them (and why they wont stop taking them) is to feel fine (even if its not the main reason why they tried it, but it comes to it in near future like with cocaine).[/QUOTE]
This is completely wrong. Alcoholics don't stop drinking because of their hangovers they just drink more to stop them. What you said maybe applies to people under 20 who just party, but alcohol abuse is a real thing and cannabis/ecstasy/LSD abuse isn't because you can't become physically dependent on it. If I went out and got black drunk tonight the effect would be much more noticeable then if I smoked a few blunts with my buddies or popped some ecstasy.
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sry i'm out of here ... deleted my post.
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On October 18 2011 08:26 beg wrote:
smoking weed isn't a victimless crime, cause your mom gets angry? so not cleaning up your room makes your mom a victim too, right?
come on :/
"shortage of money, physical as well as psychological addiction" .. where's the victims? oh you mean when you ask your mom for more money? yea, that's really what you call a victim. poor mom.
People always assume "drugs" means weed. Weed is a drug, however it is not the only drug. I didn't say that drugs in controlled environments ALWAYS cause issues. I said it is a possibility. Your family issues and physical addiction often comes from harder drugs. Psychological addiction can accompany weed, making it detrimental to yourself, however that's not what I care about. With that can come stealing from your mother (since you seemed so attached to her as an example) for the cash to buy. This does not ALWAYS happen, but it CAN. The possibility is the issue for me and the reason I avoid those who use drugs of any kind.
Weed, when used in a controlled environment is much better than others. I will completely admit that. However, like some other drugs, it often time is not used in a controlled environment. I know multiple people who have and continue to drive under the influence of weed. Perhaps it doesn't affect you as much as others, perhaps it affects your more than others, but it does affect the driving. Maybe you drive slower, but your reaction time is also slower.
My main problem is the possibility of negative effects. I'm not saying they should be completely illegal, I'm stating why I choose to avoid association with users.
edit: deleted a tag I shouldn't have.
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Anyone with prejudice against drug use should watch Requiem for a Dream.
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Thinking less of somebody with an addiction seems silly to me. People get sick all the time, physically and psychologically, for all sorts of reasons. We all make stupid decisions that put us in a rough spot. Im not saying people should befriend every hopped up meth head but when you see an addict you should realize that the person they are is as valuable as anybody else, its just that their neutral state has been altered somewhat.
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Would it be wrong for me to prejudge people who have never used drugs? Yeah, it probably would.
Do I prejudge people who haven't used drugs? Yeah. Usually they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to drugs.
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On October 18 2011 08:49 acgFork wrote:
Anyone with prejudice against drug use should watch Requiem for a Dream.
You mean without prejudice, right? Because it'll change their minds?
That movie is far more helpful than America's Drug and Alcohol Resistance Education (DARE) program if the point is to teach children that doing drugs can ruin your life.
(Not to say drugs will necessarily ruin your life... but holy crap is the imagery graphic...)
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On October 18 2011 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:49 acgFork wrote:
Anyone with prejudice against drug use should watch Requiem for a Dream. You mean without prejudice, right? Because it'll change their minds? That movie is far more helpful than America's Drug and Alcohol Resistance Education (DARE) program if the point is to teach children that doing drugs can ruin your life. (Not to say drugs will necessarily ruin your life... but holy crap is the imagery graphic...)
Those are all hard drugs in Requim for a Dream, though. Heroin, Cocaine, Crack, Methamphetamine are the main hard drugs I believe. People apply the stigmas that these hard drugs have to other drugs like cannabis and psychedelics. They are completely different substances, just like salt is to sugar. To say they have some inherent similar effect on people because they are illegal is ridiculous. The health effects of each substance needs to be examined closely individually; society tends to group them all together.
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On October 18 2011 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 08:49 acgFork wrote:
Anyone with prejudice against drug use should watch Requiem for a Dream. You mean without prejudice, right? Because it'll change their minds? That movie is far more helpful than America's Drug and Alcohol Resistance Education (DARE) program if the point is to teach children that doing drugs can ruin your life. (Not to say that's true... but holy crap is the imagery graphic...)
"drugs can ruin your life" is not the point of the movie, rather that substance abuse shows itself in many forms, and to precisely humanify addicts as actual people.
i do agree with you on the latter as a separate statement though. that's because i believe DARE has done more harm than good to the american youth by lying to them. due to being perceived ineffective and unscientific, the DARE program has been ineligible for federal grant money since the late 1990's.
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On October 18 2011 09:14 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 18 2011 08:49 acgFork wrote:
Anyone with prejudice against drug use should watch Requiem for a Dream. You mean without prejudice, right? Because it'll change their minds? That movie is far more helpful than America's Drug and Alcohol Resistance Education (DARE) program if the point is to teach children that doing drugs can ruin your life. (Not to say drugs will necessarily ruin your life... but holy crap is the imagery graphic...) Those are all hard drugs in Requim for a Dream, though. Heroin, Cocaine, Crack, Methamphetamine are the main hard drugs I believe. People apply the stigmas that these hard drugs have to other drugs like cannabis and psychedelics. They are completely different substances, just like salt is to sugar. To say they have some inherent similar effect on people because they are illegal is ridiculous. The health effects of each substance needs to be examined closely individually; society tends to group them all together.
I agree with you completely. They certainly aren't the same as marijuana (even though nearly every time "illegal drugs" are mentioned in this thread, everyone seems to ignore nearly every drug but pot lol).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg)
