|
We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
United States15275 Posts
On November 13 2018 00:47 geokilla wrote:
In Hong Kong right now and my friends are telling me to go to the "massage parlours" to try and build up some confidence when it comes to having "fun." Especially since it's so cheap in Hong Kong. I know it's legal here but what's your take on this? I wouldn't mind trying but at the same time, it feels so wrong yet so right. If it goes right, it'll definitely boost my confidence because of how wrong things went in the past and I've basically developed something negative psychologically towards sexual intercourse.
A brief sexual interlude won't buttress your confidence with women in regular scenarios. You'll simply be one customer out of a faceless sea, a convenience absent when chatting up someone in a social situation. At worst these services will become a psychological crutch.
On November 13 2018 15:38 TheFish7 wrote:
I've had this problem too; where I'm being too reserved and not quite ready myself to make a move at the time when the girl is showing interest in me. Or sometimes I'm willfully disregarding the signs she's giving me because I'm not confident enough in myself yet to escalate. By the time I get around to giving myself the green light, it's pretty much too late because she's already viewed this inaction as a soft rejection. So my advice is to not do that. Decide for yourself if you like her enough or not beforehand and if you do, pay attention to non-verbal communication, and subtle (or not-so subtle) hints she may be giving you that it's ok to move forward. I agree with IgnE's take from my own experience; once a girl perceives you to be rejecting her - even though you may not mean to be rejecting her at all - you're pretty much sunk.
This depends largely on whether the girl already perceives you to be an attractive man. Putting her on the back foot and implying she has to conform/qualify to your standards is one of the most effective ways of sparking and sustaining long-term attraction. But for most men, they don't naturally exude this type of charisma and confidence. Their seeming indifference is interpreted as a lack of interest. Without interest there's nothing left to maintain her expectations.
|
So, just as a quick update, we have met 2 more times since then and it's working out just fine. We are both quite passive in escalating anything, which means, everything takes time. But we are sufficiently into each other to recognize how awkward the situation is while trying to find solutions to resolve it as quickly as possible. I think i now have a good read on her, but you guys definately now better because you all had several girls invite you up to their rooms and it always resulted in sex. Oh well, why do i even care, you are somewhat condescendently trying to help a guy that had an interesting experience and wanted to share it. So what.
|
Nice! Good luck Broetchenholer! If you are inexperienced escalating slowly is a good idea. Some of these guys have an imaginary standard of sex on the third date. I didn't kiss my girlfriend until the 4th date and she said that she appreciated that I wasn't just trying to get in her pants. I also think that if you are both nervous and inexperienced it can be useful to clear the air. "I want to kiss you." "Sorry, I haven't done this before." etc.
|
United States15275 Posts
So basically neither of you has taken initiative to give shape to this relationship. Judging by the ambivalence dripping from every word, you are bitter about this except you are too proud to admit things aren't unfolding as optimistically as planned. Otherwise, you wouldn't be needling people who took time out of their day to offer you advice. Nor would you be hedging every single detail as if you were writing a primer for corporate HR.
My impartial, objective opinion:
- I understand it feels threatening to have complete strangers critiquing what seems to be an innocuous situation, implying you screwed up your best opportunity to get laid and failed to consolidate on mutual attraction. It might sound especially arrogant considering you aren't the type to get laid easily - a blatantly obvious insight - while the recommendations make sex sound like a carefree endeavor. Believe it or not, the regular posters here have no stake in bragging about their prowess with women. They aren't looking to mock you for failing to live up to an imaginary womanizing standard.
- Your relationship is not special. When giving romantic advice, one inexorable barrier that crops up again and again is the conviction that this scenario is an exception to the rule. Subjectivity + idealistic hope leads to some variation of "you don't understand", "she's not that type of person", "I can turn this horse into a unicorn through sheer grit". I've encountered this endemic denial countless times in this thread and during my old job. No client ever found his expectations fulfilled or preserved their romanticized vision. The same general dynamics govern all intersexual relationships, including this one.
- There is only so much elbow grease you can add before acknowledging something is beyond reach. Ask yourself this: why are you putting in so much effort, and assuming reciprocation on the other end, to advance a relationship that so far sounds like pulling teeth? The fact that you are already "trying to find solutions to resolve it as quickly as possible" is the shrill ring of a nuclear alarm. When women genuinely like a man, they take great pains to accommodate him. Struggling to even figure out whether you two are a couple, let alone the requisite intimacy, portends failure.
|
idk cosmic, what about nerd love?
|
Sorry if I gave off the tone of condescending, I’m more just trying to jokingly give advice. I’m pretty bad at that apparently.
We all experienced “inexperienced relationships” it’s nothing to be looked down on. I remember my first relationship, it was so beautiful: Not knowing what to do, not sure what was appropriate or not. Sharing that moment with someone in the same shoes. We all wish we could experience love for the first time as well.
I digress but I hope u get my point. Don’t be discouraged, we’re all fam and give advice to help people—not brag or gloat.
|
On November 14 2018 08:08 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, just as a quick update, we have met 2 more times since then and it's working out just fine. We are both quite passive in escalating anything, which means, everything takes time. But we are sufficiently into each other to recognize how awkward the situation is while trying to find solutions to resolve it as quickly as possible. I think i now have a good read on her, but you guys definately now better because you all had several girls invite you up to their rooms and it always resulted in sex. Oh well, why do i even care, you are somewhat condescendently trying to help a guy that had an interesting experience and wanted to share it. So what.
Well that's fantastic! I hope things continue to go well. Success stories are absolutely the best ones 
Your post sounded like you wanted advice. We were trying to help you. If you didn't want that, and you got advice where you weren't looking for any then I'm sorry that happened. However, none of that advice was condescending. It was all good faith, polite, advice. Condescending would be "wow. Jesus Broetchenholer how can you be so stupid?! I can't believe you'd even try approach women like that bro." You got nothing of the sort. You got advice of the form: Our read on the situation, our opinion why what you did wasn't a good approach, our opinion about how you could improve your approach.
Just because it may work out in this situation does not mean the advice was inherently wrong. You were given good advice. Passively aggressively implying those of us that gave you that advice are wrong and silly for giving it IS insulting to those trying to help you in good faith. Your way can work. It will hopefully work in this situation. However, what most of us recommended would have worked faster, and have a dramatically higher percentage chance of leading to success in general.
My impression of you is that you read what a few of us wrote, came to the conclusion that we were generally wrong and that our advice didn't understand your situation, and then dismissed it with no further response. I, and others wrote several longer, thoughtful responses with analysis and you didn't respond to them. You came across as a know it all kind of guy who had it figured out and didn't want to hear what anybody else had to say. Is that you? I don't know. It's definitely how you came across.
That's all I will say on the matter. I don't think you're interested in advice, so I'll wish you luck and hopefully a few weeks or months down the line you'll have a great success story to tell us! Best of luck!
|
On November 14 2018 09:10 WarSame wrote:
Nice! Good luck Broetchenholer! If you are inexperienced escalating slowly is a good idea. Some of these guys have an imaginary standard of sex on the third date. I didn't kiss my girlfriend until the 4th date and she said that she appreciated that I wasn't just trying to get in her pants. I also think that if you are both nervous and inexperienced it can be useful to clear the air. "I want to kiss you." "Sorry, I haven't done this before." etc.
Can you explain what you mean?
|
I think you literally said that a few pages ago(though thinking back maybe that was talking about the "Hollywood standard"). First date = kiss, third date = sex. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone who is this inexperienced. I would know. That was me 2.5 years ago.
EDIT: Also, I'd like to say for the record, I agree with pretty much everyone who replied to Broetchenholer. She gave off big interest signs(or what are fairly universally considered interest signs), he failed to respond, she backed away and then denied the interest signs.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
To be honest... a lot of advice, including dating advice, is by nature far too generic to always apply to all situations. Maybe useful as guidelines, but anyone who insists you should always follow this advice or else, is being quite obtuse (and some people definitely create a world of rules and assertions to justify their correctness). That said... it's hard to say that the specific situation isn't one where interest was shown and the person in question didn't act on it in a way that would properly reciprocate it. Salvageable? Possibly. Possibly not. Thing is this really is one of those rare cases where there really is a pretty unambiguous "right" answer. Certainly there's more than enough to take issue with certain comments that were condescending, even sanctimonious, but the situation is frankly a little too clear cut to really say that any of the advice given was wrong.
|
On November 14 2018 12:44 WarSame wrote:
I think you literally said that a few pages ago(though thinking back maybe that was talking about the "Hollywood standard"). First date = kiss, third date = sex. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone who is this inexperienced. I would know. That was me 2.5 years ago.
Maybe that was someone else or maybe I was referring to what most girls seem to have in mind. I hear from alot of women, just talking to them, that it's 3 dates before they have sex. I don't know where it comes from but that feels common attitude or social thing.
My opinion on what is best is sex on the second date. I've talked about my first dates a bit. Hour or so, usually at a nice bar. One drink (for me anyway) and I start with some fun banter, move on to some screening and getting to know her a bit, talk a little about dating experience and swap funny dating stories, and then into discussion about sex. Escalate gradually the entire time. This usually means by the end we are sitting close and she is comfortable with me playing with her hair or touching her face. I don't end with a kiss usually, instead leaving the tension and going with a deep somewhat intense hug. \
Second date is come to my place or go to hers. Escalate to sex. Or, if we didn't have an killer vibe that made me go DAMN! YES! I would like to see more of you, no second date at all and drop it.
In my experience it works absolutely great. It's the most reliable way I've found to get to a relationship (also to having sex) I've found. Going slower, escalating less, more dates, or trying to go for sex on the first date are all far less effective in getting into a relationship in my experience.
I also personally dislike slower methods because that often puts girls into this "make him wait for sex" mindset. This isn't a terrible thing, but all else equal if I'm attracted to someone and think something is there...I would prefer not to be left needing to meet arbitrary minimums before we have sex. Combine this with it also having a higher success percentage in leading to a relationship and it becomes a no brainer.
Do you have to do it this way? Hell no. Other approaches work. If you really enjoy long, romantic, dates and an elaborate courtship process, go for it! If you don't think you're comfortable or calibrated enough to escalate to that level on a first date...go slower. Just realize that slower rates of escalation will decrease your overall success rate. You'll probably get a few girls someone being more aggressive might lose, but at the same time you'll lose far more by playing it too safe. My three date+ rate is dramatically lower than aiming for sex on the second date after good escalation and tension on date #1.
|
Or maybe different types of guys attract (and are attracted by) different types of girls. And then projecting "I talked to girls and what most of them want" could be very far off the reality of other guys spheres.
And while everyone around L_Master gets laid right away, in the world of potentials mates for Broetchenholer things go a bit more slowly. And in fact, most likely a girl that would only be happy if there was sex before date X would not fit him very well down the road either.
Now from his stories it seems like he found a quite flexible one, and that should be considered a good thing. She was opening herself up to the quick way, but it is also understanding and support his slow approach.
PS: is "My impartial, objective opinion:" some kind of latest meme I missed.
|
On November 14 2018 15:30 mahrgell wrote:
Or maybe different types of guys attract (and are attracted by) different types of girls. And then projecting "I talked to girls and what most of them want" could be very far off the reality of other guys spheres.
And while everyone around L_Master gets laid right away, in the world of potentials mates for Broetchenholer things go a bit more slowly. And in fact, most likely a girl that would only be happy if there was sex before date X would not fit him very well down the road either.
Now from his stories it seems like he found a quite flexible one, and that should be considered a good thing. She was opening herself up to the quick way, but it is also understanding and support his slow approach.
PS: is "My impartial, objective opinion:" some kind of latest meme I missed.
I don't doubt for a second that guys attracting different girls is true. Both physically and from a personality standpoint. The I talked to girls part is probably the least reliable though. Women are rather notorious for saying they want one thing and responding to something totally different. I think the "3 date thing" may be a cultural thing. I've experienced it a ton, and heard from a huge variety of people that it's often a principle. My guess is that mindset came about from still being reasonable as far as sex goes, but not so fast to get labeled the dreaded "s word". Who knows. I'm pretty confident that attitude goes well beyond "LMaster's sphere" though. I've read about, had friends talk about, and heard from too many relative acquaintances about it to think it isn't a "thing" to some extent.
Your second paragraph is really interesting. It's absolutely possible. I'm inclined towards no, largely because the guys that I know who are "take it slow, careful escalation" types, tend to have a drastically lower rate of successful dates, and tend to be the guys that "fall into" relationships. This might be the case of the more aggressive guys also approaching and meeting more women, but from what I've heard and talking to friends and those I know, it's also much lower on a percentage basis. If I meet someone online, and they don't flake, it's about 80% chance she will agree to a second date at my place. My guess is that slow escalation ends in a relationship at a lower percentage. Would be quite interesting if we had a wider spectrum of data.
It's also possible that even the above view is an overly simplistic treatment missing other key factors.
As for Broetchenholer being more happy with a girl who insists of X number of dates before sex, I can't think of a reason why that would matter. How fast you have sex really has no bearing on how compatible you are. The one idea coming to mind that would be interesting if if you suspect it relates to some broader aspects of personality that are often paired with slow, very formal dating and a desire to escalate slowly. An interesting idea for sure when it comes to LTR compatibility. I doubt we have evidence to go either way, but it's a good thought.
|
Look, my story was, she did a stupid thing, didn't really know why she did it and it threw me off so hard that i paniced into a really awkward situation. That was the story. And the irony is, that then i get told that by everyone that obviously the standard is definetely 100% true science and i did not fuck up by panicking into an awkward situation but by not acknowledging the standard and then panicking into an awkward situation. This does not mean i do not appreciate the time and effort spent to try to help me with my dating. I just wish you wouldn't talk with that amount of certainty about very dynamic situations with a lot of variables, because this is what created the whole story.
|
On November 14 2018 15:30 mahrgell wrote:
Or maybe different types of guys attract (and are attracted by) different types of girls. And then projecting "I talked to girls and what most of them want" could be very far off the reality of other guys spheres.
And while everyone around L_Master gets laid right away, in the world of potentials mates for Broetchenholer things go a bit more slowly. And in fact, most likely a girl that would only be happy if there was sex before date X would not fit him very well down the road either.
Now from his stories it seems like he found a quite flexible one, and that should be considered a good thing. She was opening herself up to the quick way, but it is also understanding and support his slow approach.
PS: is "My impartial, objective opinion:" some kind of latest meme I missed.
Yeah there's no hard and fast rules, I didn't say he had to bone her just because she invited him up
Just that it was a clear sign of her opening up romantically, and him not reciprocating with any form of escalation again will lower her attraction + make things awkward. Being 100% in control, pushing things forward when she does open herself up but then pulling back makes you look unpredictable, can actually be a great thing for a long term relationship.
Not doing anything at all, then being weak and actually asking where you stand when she told you with her actions just creates a vibe early it's not easy to get away from
As you're finding right now, we're just giving you advice for next time, I'm sure you'll learn from this one and any experience is better than no experience when you don't know what you're doing and been friendzoning yourself all your life
|
On November 14 2018 14:20 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 12:44 WarSame wrote:
I think you literally said that a few pages ago(though thinking back maybe that was talking about the "Hollywood standard"). First date = kiss, third date = sex. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone who is this inexperienced. I would know. That was me 2.5 years ago.
Maybe that was someone else or maybe I was referring to what most girls seem to have in mind. I hear from alot of women, just talking to them, that it's 3 dates before they have sex. I don't know where it comes from but that feels common attitude or social thing. My opinion on what is best is sex on the second date. I've talked about my first dates a bit. Hour or so, usually at a nice bar. One drink (for me anyway) and I start with some fun banter, move on to some screening and getting to know her a bit, talk a little about dating experience and swap funny dating stories, and then into discussion about sex. Escalate gradually the entire time. This usually means by the end we are sitting close and she is comfortable with me playing with her hair or touching her face. I don't end with a kiss usually, instead leaving the tension and going with a deep somewhat intense hug. \ Second date is come to my place or go to hers. Escalate to sex. Or, if we didn't have an killer vibe that made me go DAMN! YES! I would like to see more of you, no second date at all and drop it. In my experience it works absolutely great. It's the most reliable way I've found to get to a relationship (also to having sex) I've found. Going slower, escalating less, more dates, or trying to go for sex on the first date are all far less effective in getting into a relationship in my experience. I also personally dislike slower methods because that often puts girls into this "make him wait for sex" mindset. This isn't a terrible thing, but all else equal if I'm attracted to someone and think something is there...I would prefer not to be left needing to meet arbitrary minimums before we have sex. Combine this with it also having a higher success percentage in leading to a relationship and it becomes a no brainer. Do you have to do it this way? Hell no. Other approaches work. If you really enjoy long, romantic, dates and an elaborate courtship process, go for it! If you don't think you're comfortable or calibrated enough to escalate to that level on a first date...go slower. Just realize that slower rates of escalation will decrease your overall success rate. You'll probably get a few girls someone being more aggressive might lose, but at the same time you'll lose far more by playing it too safe. My three date+ rate is dramatically lower than aiming for sex on the second date after good escalation and tension on date #1.
That statement was mine, and it was in the context of "You don't have to live by the hollywood standard of date 1 kiss, date 3 sex" or something along those lines.
I want to also mention that i am happy for Broetchenholer.
I think a lot of the conflict here is based on different goals and expectations. If your goal is to acquire a girl to have sex with, pushing for sex quickly is probably reasonable. If it doesn't work, just try someone else instead.
I don't think that Broetchenholers or that girls situation is along those lines. They basically stumbled into a "Hey, i like that girl/guy" situation. And now they want to figure that out. I don't think that pushing hard for sex is helpful in that situation, and what BH is doing seems to work in a way that makes him happy, which is good.
I think nerdy dating might work a bit differently. In my group of friends (which is mostly based on P&P roleplaying games) dating basically happens mostly that way. People don't really actively go out with the goal of finding someone to date a lot, they mostly stumble into it. And I think that means that the process is a different, too. There is less "trying to score" and more "figuring out what this actually is".
I must say that i am not the biggest fan of the negative use of "friendzone" here, either. Friends are awesome. Some people don't work well as romantic partners, but work well as friends. some people here make this sound like a failure, because you didn't acquire sex. Meanwhile, i think acquiring friends is good. Sex is nice, sure, but i don't think it is the singular goal in life, or the singular thing that can make you happy.
|
Btw my long-term self-sufficient project's going well
Build up a decent varied social circle, got a friend who's a freelancer who does stuff with me in town
A couple guys who are into pickup
A girl that organises events and actually got me into the music business circles drinking one night
And girl i used to know in the past who's just fun to hang around with that is into freaky stuff like horrors
Still got my old friends who I find a lil' boring who are dealing with their stuff
And a bunch of acquaintances I meet at events I can unload my random shit on and dick around with
Only thing is that I haven't been aggressive and clear enough with a couple girls where the attraction was around 5-6/10 (mutually) that are really cool, so I wasn't sure if I do or don't want to try romantically and ended up not getting their contact, where I'd be way better off actually just going for the friend route.
So yeah things are building up nicely, I need to keep working on maintaining + expanding what I built on so it's in autopilot and then can shift towards dating itself more
I still don't feel the hunger towards that too much, still have some exercises to do to learn from my last relationship + clearly define what I want going forward, have this relationship circle meetup that I actually have a writing exercise homework for
And only got numbers/asked out a couple girls where the mutual attraction and banter's been really high and clear cut for me so far
|
On November 13 2018 15:38 TheFish7 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 00:47 geokilla wrote:
In Hong Kong right now and my friends are telling me to go to the "massage parlours" to try and build up some confidence when it comes to having "fun." Especially since it's so cheap in Hong Kong. I know it's legal here but what's your take on this? I wouldn't mind trying but at the same time, it feels so wrong yet so right. If it goes right, it'll definitely boost my confidence because of how wrong things went in the past and I've basically developed something negative psychologically towards sexual intercourse. Be careful not to do something you end up regretting in the future. It sounds like you might need some other confidence boosting measure like a therapy session or winning some ladder games rather than a working girl. That said, nothing like a good ol' fashioned to take the mind off of things ( I wouldn't take it further than that - and probably you're better off trying to meet randoms at a club or something).
On November 14 2018 05:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 00:47 geokilla wrote:
In Hong Kong right now and my friends are telling me to go to the "massage parlours" to try and build up some confidence when it comes to having "fun." Especially since it's so cheap in Hong Kong. I know it's legal here but what's your take on this? I wouldn't mind trying but at the same time, it feels so wrong yet so right. If it goes right, it'll definitely boost my confidence because of how wrong things went in the past and I've basically developed something negative psychologically towards sexual intercourse. A brief sexual interlude won't buttress your confidence with women in regular scenarios. You'll simply be one customer out of a faceless sea, a convenience absent when chatting up someone in a social situation. At worst these services will become a psychological crutch.
Yep I understand that much. But I have confidence issues when it comes to needing to perform due to my past experience with my ex. I read about seeing a sex therapist but I thought those are a couples thing?
|
Sex therapy isn't a couples thing. People go to therapy for various reasons like sex addiction or the inability to get off.
I've had similar problems and to be honest did not get negative feedback from he women I was with at that time. Given one of these was a ONS so what can she do if I'm suddenly flaccid but bemoan the fact? We were not gonna see us again and even if, in this case our mutual sympathy was strong enough to overcome the fact that this stuff happens.
I even get it now sometimes when my wife gets a laughing fit during sex lol. How can you go on pounding with that? 
I bet lemon could though 
What helped me (apart from getting more experience and being more comfortable with intercourse) was to be the active one. I would have problems maintaining an erection due to mental pressure (hadn't had sex in yeaars back then) when my given partner was on top. Simply changing the position would've helped I guess but being as timid and out of my mind that "it's actually happening omgomgomgomg", this was actually out of the question.
tl;dr: if you think it's an unhealthy mental thing, go try out therapy. I've got several friends that did seek out help and it did better their lifes. you can usually stop anytime (though this might impact future grants by the insurance company) if you think this isnt for you or switch your psych.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
