• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:07
CEST 13:07
KST 20:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Serral wins Maestros of the Game 2
Tourneys
WORTEX 2026 - Hungarian SC2 Finals Budapest PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Pros React To: First 'Fastest' Map in ASL History [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 ASL22 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group B Brood War in Budapest ! WORTEX 2026 BW Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Toronto invitational lan 22 august
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck? Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Young Players Exit Esports E…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4429 users

Citizen's United vs FEC (Campaign Finance)

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 00:00:50
September 29 2011 22:03 GMT
#1
Case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

This is one of the most misunderstood supreme court decisions.

The fundamental question is do corporations have any rights under the constitution with regards to campaigning in elections.

The background is that McCain/Feingold banned corporations from electioneering.
This applied to both profit and for profit corporations. Electioneering was defined as messages endorsing or criticizing specific candidates in the run up to elections.

A Non Profit called Citizen's United was formed with the principal goal of making sure Hillary Clinton did not become the next president of the USA. Toward that end the made videos critical of her and aired advertisements for that video in the run up to primary elections in many states. The Federal Election Commission determined this was electioneering and stopped the adds.

Citizen's United brought suit claiming that their free speech rights were infringed. Citizen's United only claimed that they were not engaging in electioneering.

The court went further and found the law was unconstitutional on the grounds that corporations have the right of free speech under the first amendment.

Text of First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Basically the first amendment is what provides for freedom of speech and freedom of religion in the American constitution.

Does "freedom of speech" extend to political speech?
Yes. Freedom of speech was not created so we could all enjoy porn. It was created so we could criticize politicians in the run up to elections without fear.

Some have claimed that it should not apply to corporations because a corporation is not a person.
I believe the first amendment obviously applies to corporations because corporations are nothing more than an association of people.
Freedom of speech is not an individual right because as an individual right it would only grant you the right to talk to yourself. For freedom of communication you need both a speaker and listener and both have rights.
If the first amendment did not apply to corporations then consider these changes to America:
Most churches are incorporated, thus would not have freedom of religion.
Universities would not have freedom of speech.
Newspaper companies would not have freedom of speech.
TV stations would not have freedom of speech.
Book publishers would not have freedom of speech.
The list goes on.
If Corporations did not have freedom of speech we would be limited to yelling our opinions from our front step so long as they were not too loud to annoy a neighbor.

Does this case allow corporations to give unlimited amounts of money to campaigns?
No. This case does not address the giving of money to politicians at all. It only considers independent expenditures. Basically corporations can create and then run their own adds. They are welcome to spend however much money they have doing this.

Did this case overturn 100 years of case law?
No. The 100 year old law in question was regarding giving to politicians. Only 10 years of case law was overturned going back to when McCain/Feingold was passed.

Does this case allow foreigners to campaign?
No. The case specifically said nothing about foreigners because it was not pertinent to the case. Both sides agreed Citizen's United was funded by Americans.

Could the logic from the case be extended to foreigners?

Yes. In America, foreigners have the same free speech rights as Americans. You cannot limit a foreigner's speech without limiting an American's right to hear that speech. Congress cannot ban "On the Origin of the Species," "The Communist Manifesto" or "Mein Kampf" just because Charles Darwin, Karl Marx and Adolph Hitler were not American.
Presumably if a foreigner wished to write a book on why Americans should support one candidate over another and wished to publish it then Americans would have the right to read that book, regardless of whether congress approved.

Does allowing corporations to spend large sums of money campaigning for or against candidates lead to corruption?

I would say it leads to no more corruption than is inherent in Democracy. In a Democracy there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to influence politicians. If I threaten to kill a politician if he goes against my interests then I have done something inappropriate. If I threaten to vote against a politician if he goes against my interests it is perfectly appropriate. That is the whole point of elections and exactly how a democracy should function. Furthermore if I threaten to publicly criticize a politician who goes against my interests that is also appropriate. If an oil company threatens "If you raise the tax on oil I will publicly criticize you in the run up to your next election" that is perfectly valid threat and compatible with democracy.

A world where politicians are constantly in fear of being voted against or publicy criticized is not a corrupt world. It is a functioning democracy. More political speech will enable more people to hear both sides. The people should be trusted to make the correct decision, even if they make the wrong decision. Democracy is not perfect or even good. As Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all of those others that have been tried."


Updates:

Did McCain/Feingold benefit the rich or poor?

McCain/Feingold only impacted corporations. Individuals were already considered exempt because the first amendment clearly applies to them. If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet each individually decided to spend $100M running commercials in favor of their favorite candidate there was nothing to stop them. If instead 10 million citizens wished to pool $10 each to run commercials then they would have been banned from doing so. This clearly helps the very wealthy and hurts the lower middle class.

Perhaps only Corporations that are expressly political should be allowed to campaign. Anyone can donate to whichever political corporation they want therefore their rights are preserved. Is this good for the rich or the poor?

Consider two companies that are in direct competition. The one imports raw materials from China. The other imports raw materials from Africa. The first company is owned in its entirely by one billionaire. The second company is owned by millions of middle class individuals who own shares worth around $5. Now imagine politicians are considering putting trade restriction on either Africa or China. While neither company could contribute to campaigns, the one billionaire who owns his company in its entirety and gets 100% of the benefits it would get is free to use as much of his personal fortune as he sees fit. He can campaign like crazy for trade restrictions hurting his competitor. Meanwhile for the millions of individuals owning stock in the other company it does not make sense to campaign since the gains to be had from your personal campaign funds must be shared with millions of other people. The result is the billionaire has a huge advantage over the middle class. In this manner such rules actually beneft the very rich and hurt the middle class.

Are the opinions of the poor "drowned out?"

Even in the heat of an election the vast majority of adds are not political in nature. Watch a soap opera and you will still see more commercials for soaps than for politicians. If the political messages of the poor are drowned out it is by commercials that are actually commercial in nature.
In the case of Citizen's United, clearly Citizen's united was not drowing out anyone. It was in fact the government which had totally forbit Citizen's from communicating its message at all.
In general if a candidate fails to get his message out is not because his opponent is too well funded.

ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
September 29 2011 22:23 GMT
#2
Hmmm, while I don't disagree with the idea of corporations being bodies and being allowed rights like people, I must say I disagree with the idea that just because corruption is inherent in Democracy (I'd argue in politics), then it should be allowed. No, the point is that we should have committees to monitor said corruption. Hence why media should *ideally* be free and a check on corruption.

Furthermore, as you said yourself, oil companies criticizing politicians is not corruption. However, what do you define campaign funds as? Would it be more in the realm of "talking" but with money or a bribe? Underlying that, would you then feel bribery is okay or do you consider it corruption? From my idea of Gilded Age politics and the movement that resulted from it, politicians and corporations scratching each others' backs with money and favors is regarded as bribery. Bribery is corruption, and with enough of it, won't our democracy take the road of the Roman Republic right before Julius Caesar reigned? That is, money rules government. But isn't the inherent point of a Democracy that people rule government?
darkness overpowering
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
September 29 2011 22:29 GMT
#3
Bribery is corruption which is why corporations can be limited in what they give directly.
Otherwise you have corporations giving kickbacks for fat government contracts.
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 22:36:20
September 29 2011 22:36 GMT
#4
I see the problem as differentiating between donations that are meant as bribery and just regular donations. It is possible that a wealthy business man to just give to a cause because he believes in it. It equally possible for him to donate for his personal gain. It'd have to be evaluated on a case by case basis if you wanted corruption gone. I hate politics, nothing is ever clear cut or guided by morals or greater good. All about money and power.
Platinum Support GOD
Suisen
Profile Joined April 2011
256 Posts
September 29 2011 22:42 GMT
#5
Corporate personhood is an undemocratic sham. There was never legislation to create these legal persons. Legal persons aren't persons.

Also corruption isn't freedom of speech.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
September 29 2011 23:05 GMT
#6
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

People or not, corporations cannot be limited on speech. An organization of peoples has a right to voice their collective ideas as much as individual persons.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 23:48:18
September 29 2011 23:43 GMT
#7
On September 30 2011 08:05 TanGeng wrote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

People or not, corporations cannot be limited on speech. An organization of peoples has a right to voice their collective ideas as much as individual persons.

The idea that a group of people with a shared goal can pool their money into running ads or funding political things isn't that radical it's quite ordinary, but the line is that a corporation is not founded on that basis and a corporation doesn't have to hold all it's members to being citizens of this country or even aspire to be citizens of this country that's the line i see. Would it be wise for us to be receiving funding from a group of people who do not necessarily need to be American to be involved in American politics? So then what we make middle men groups to funnel the money though that are made up of american's and that would be alright? Would it also be alright for us to dwarf out the sounds of the poor because they are unable to gather as much money which in a country like the US is the only way to campaign just due to the size of it. Where is the line drawn?

Personally i don't mind the money so much as the political ads which are often misleading and sometimes flat out lies and get away with this because they can just pay the lawsuit for libel/slander if it goes down to that, which do not tarnish the campaign because if you're supported by bigots it doesn't make you a bigot apparently. Mostly it's that gray area that i dislike, not it showing 100 times a day on channel 4 or w.e
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 30 2011 02:43 GMT
#8
Honestly, I would much rather see more actions taken towards punishing the intentional spread of misinformation. Our libel and slander laws are so ineffective at curbing actual misinformation that it's always beneficial to lie first and spread the seed of doubt instead of battling on truth.
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
September 30 2011 02:54 GMT
#9
On September 30 2011 11:43 aksfjh wrote:
Honestly, I would much rather see more actions taken towards punishing the intentional spread of misinformation. Our libel and slander laws are so ineffective at curbing actual misinformation that it's always beneficial to lie first and spread the seed of doubt instead of battling on truth.


Right, but who determines what misinformation is? Who says what truth is?

Whoever gets to make that decision effectively can't be called on lying.


That's why these laws are relatively ineffective - if they WERE effective, they would be abused.

This is why the reduction of laws managing individuals is generally a good thing.. Anyone at the top will use the legal power in their own best interests, so legal power at the top should be limited.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Master Swan Open #106
CranKy Ducklings70
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft104
Trikslyr17
EmSc Tv 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 11095
Leta 5761
Britney 5710
PianO 4362
Hyuk 2099
Shuttle 1637
firebathero 522
Pusan 509
Mini 298
EffOrt 121
[ Show more ]
hero 102
Killer 87
ZerO 61
Sexy 56
Yoon 42
[sc1f]eonzerg 38
Barracks 30
scan(afreeca) 27
Sharp 25
Terrorterran 15
Hm[arnc] 15
zelot 14
SilentControl 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
910 7
Noble 7
Dota 2
The International117136
Gorgc8763
singsing3017
resolut1ontv 22
League of Legends
JimRising 369
Counter-Strike
nookyyy 132
kRYSTAL_90
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King150
Other Games
B2W.Neo454
ToD206
Lowko132
ArmadaUGS33
Beastyqt8
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick405
BasetradeTV44
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 0
EmSc2Tv 0
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH304
• StrangeGG 63
• LUISG 20
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV198
League of Legends
• Jankos1589
• Stunt564
Upcoming Events
PiG Sty Festival
54m
Zoun vs Solar
SHIN vs Maru
Patches Events
4h 54m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
22h 54m
PiG Sty Festival
1d
TBD vs Reynor
Serral vs TBD
OSC
1d 4h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 22h
hero vs ggaemo
Larva vs Mong
The Patches Monday
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soulkey vs PianO
JyJ vs sSak
GSL
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Mini vs Calm
Queen vs EffOrt
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W8
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.