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35 pages discussing what exactly? That most guy gamers use derogatory terms? My head hurts
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you.
The insult is based entirely around sex. Bitch means female dog. Dog itself is not an insult (e.g. top dog) so it's the female part of it that makes it an insult.
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On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult.
Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often.
Seriously, everything in this thread from the word "rape", to the word, "bitch", to the word, "dick" is all of a sudden an insult towards females. What the fuck? I really can't even wrap my head around that line of thinking.
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On September 19 2011 03:10 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you. The insult is based entirely around sex. Bitch means female dog. Dog itself is not an insult (e.g. top dog) so it's the female part of it that makes it an insult.
Absolutely incorrect. No one in American culture insults someone because the female dog is the word they are using to describe them. That is a different meaning of the same word that is not an insult and is used separately.
You are deriving a sexist insult because you don't realize that in American culture a bitch is either a legitimate term for a female dog or a term for an unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person.
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Not the same thing, which you won't understand. You can stop generalizing the community as it is very broad and you will find a little bit of everything inside of it.
You can say context matters but the biggest thing is the person listening. Racism, sexism, and comedy is not some bright red line that you can see otherwise comedians wouldn't be challenging societies perceptions of these things. Many people have zero tolerance for either and others are the opposite extreme.
Comedians challenge social perceptions by unveiling it to the perpetrators in a more palatable form through comedy. They say racist and sexist and misogynist things to get people to laugh. That people laugh does not mean what the comedian said wasn't racist/sexist/misogynistic. It simply means that people are willing to laugh about it.
However, in the context Day[9] was saying the phrase, people were okay with it because they agreed with him.
Day[9] describes a female acting in a way that he felt was insensitive and unintelligent, so he calls her a dumb bitch. People agree with day[9] that a female that doesn't understand a hobby she is not part of should be called a bitch, because the community at large thinks that is an appropriate description of an uninformed female that doesn't submit to the male will of how gg is supposed to be typed out.
If day[9] used a racial slur instead, people would be upset because obviously black people would know how to type gg, only girls don't know how to do that.
Do you see the problem?
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On September 19 2011 03:14 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:10 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you. The insult is based entirely around sex. Bitch means female dog. Dog itself is not an insult (e.g. top dog) so it's the female part of it that makes it an insult. Absolutely incorrect. No one in American culture insults someone because the female dog is the word they are using to describe them. That is a different meaning of the same word that is not an insult and is used separately. You are deriving a sexist insult because you don't realize that in American culture a bitch is either a legitimate term for a female dog or a term for an unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person.
Apparently the definitions of words don't matter, unless they have a negative meaning attached to them. That's literally all I've gathered from this thread.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often.
It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war.
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On September 19 2011 03:09 dark14cs wrote:
35 pages discussing what exactly? That most guy gamers use derogatory terms? My head hurts
Technically it's asking if it's possible for guys to try to be less derogatory and guys getting upset that they're not allowed to be.
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On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war.
Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit.
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This Guy is ridiculous and i would now like to quote something that even if the day9 quote was in actuality a truth and not some mad immature lonely depressed (he said these things about himself) virgin (why is he writing an article to a daughter hell never have? lol), would make him an even bigger hyppocrite.
"I just can't get enough of cocky 80-pound Asians dropping Manner Mules on each other"
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On September 19 2011 03:14 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:10 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you. The insult is based entirely around sex. Bitch means female dog. Dog itself is not an insult (e.g. top dog) so it's the female part of it that makes it an insult. Absolutely incorrect. No one in American culture insults someone because the female dog is the word they are using to describe them. That is a different meaning of the same word that is not an insult and is used separately. You are deriving a sexist insult because you don't realize that in American culture a bitch is either a legitimate term for a female dog or a term for an unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person.
They use terms that mean male dog to praise people
They use terms that mean female dog to insult people
The fact that female dog is interchangeable with "unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person" while calling someone a dog is interchangeable with calling someone strong, a leader, knows what he's doing is a problem!
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On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:
[quote]
Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security.
You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit.
What's being said is that some thing s carry more cultural weight than other things. A white man won't care that he has a black doctor. A member of the KKK would care if he had that same black doctor. Why? Cultural weight. Women care about rape because they're usually the victims, and they're usually the victims because they're women. It's not like rapists just go around looking for any open hole and start fucking sheep and men and trees. They go around and target women specifically because they're women.
Murder is rarely ever done simply because the victim was male and the murderer just *had* to kill a male that night and that male was the closest around.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:
[quote]
Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security.
You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit.
The nations thing was just to try and explain my point. More simply if Group A does something bad to Group B. Then Person A saying something related to that bad thing is going to offend Person B more than another member of Group A or someone in neither group.
Also murder is much more of a gender neutral crime than rape.
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On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. Seriously, everything in this thread from the word "rape", to the word, "bitch", to the word, "dick" is all of a sudden an insult towards females. What the fuck? I really can't even wrap my head around that line of thinking.
It might be true that rape is technically a genderless term, but it's been given a deeper meaning than the act by pure statistics. There is no point in looking at the ratio of males:females in instances of sexual assault-- you'll find in almost every category that females dominate heavily. Thus, you can pretend that it has no gender meaning, but in practice it has a heavy connotation of female subjugation. The closest comparison I can make is that telling a black man he's going to get "lynched," or a Jew that he will be "gassed," in a game of Starcraft 2 must be perfectly acceptable because anyone could get lynched or gassed.
Further, I don't think the point of the article was necessarily to condemn day9 for anything he did or did not say, nor was it to argue for greater intervention by any forces into the gaming world. It's more "hey, maybe we should think about what we type before we hit enter." Obviously you can't limit what people are going to do, but maybe try to break your own habit of using such terms. I know I will subconsciously say "rape," to describe blowout games, but I'm doing my best to consciously be aware of it and stop.
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On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World. Just saw your edit, so suddenly it's only misogyny that's the problem and not sexism in general? I'm sorry, no, female only leagues, trying to force 50/50 male/female executives in companies even when the females are less qualified, etc, etc, etc. But even if you were wanting to focus on just one side, there are plenty of better areas, I really don't feel the need to Google them for you.
Sexism is a expression of misogyny. Rape is currently overwhelmingly by a male against females, the reverse does happen, but its rare. For accuracy, this may reflect the power imbalance that currently exists, as rape of men seems to mainly occur when enormous power differentials are seen (eg. African bushwars, prison gangs).
Your easy solution to sexism is to remove even the trappings of trying to reverse entrenched, institutionalised sexism?? (yes, extensive primary literature does exist on sex imbalances in higher positions, but they also highlight that increased female participation reduces the issue of an old boys club and even other non-sex ratio related problems, ergo quotas, multiple citations available on request) What? Whenever someone talks about a problem, you go, look, there's a bigger fire there, why are you even talking about this?
Start small and social pressure does the rest. Don't worry about my time.
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On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you.
Wait what??!?!?!!?
You can say sexist things, but not be sexist? If you're saying sexist things, by definition are you not being sexist?
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On September 19 2011 03:23 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:
[quote]
Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit. The nations thing was just to try and explain my point. More simply if Group A does something bad to Group B. Then Person A saying something related to that bad thing is going to offend Person B more than another member of Group A or someone in neither group. Also murder is much more of a gender neutral crime than rape.
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%
The gender distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide
For the years 1976-2004 combined -
* Among all homicide victims, females are particularly at risk for intimate killings and sex-related homicides.
Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004
Victims Offenders
Male Female Male Female
All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3%
Victim/offender relationship
Intimate 36.5% 63.5% 65.3% 34.7%
Family 51.7% 48.3% 70.6% 29.4%
Infanticide 54.5% 45.5% 61.8% 38.2%
Eldercide 58.3% 41.7% 85.3% 14.7%
Circumstances
Felony murder 78.2% 21.8% 93.3% 6.7%
Sex related 18.8% 81.2% 93.6% 6.4%
Drug related 90.1% 9.9% 95.6% 4.4%
Gang related 94.6% 5.4% 98.3% 1.7%
Argument 77.9% 22.1% 85.5% 14.5%
Workplace 78.3% 21.7% 91.1% 8.9%
Weapon
Gun homicide 82.7% 17.3% 91.2% 8.8%
Arson 56.3% 43.7% 79.1% 20.9%
Poison 55.6% 44.4% 63.3% 36.7%
Multiple victims or offenders
Multiple victims 63.1% 36.9% 93.5% 6.5%
Multiple offenders 85.6% 14.4% 91.7% 8.3%
Also, I know exactly what you were doing, you were talking about genders in one line and in the next you moved it to nations. You can't swap it around like that.
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On September 19 2011 03:28 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:23 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:
[quote]
You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture.
In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.. In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit. The nations thing was just to try and explain my point. More simply if Group A does something bad to Group B. Then Person A saying something related to that bad thing is going to offend Person B more than another member of Group A or someone in neither group. Also murder is much more of a gender neutral crime than rape. Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male Male offender/Male victim 65.2% Male offender/Female victim 22.6% Female offender/Male victim 9.7% Female offender/Female victim 2.4% The gender distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide For the years 1976-2004 combined - * Among all homicide victims, females are particularly at risk for intimate killings and sex-related homicides. Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004 Victims Offenders Male Female Male Female All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3% Victim/offender relationship Intimate 36.5% 63.5% 65.3% 34.7% Family 51.7% 48.3% 70.6% 29.4% Infanticide 54.5% 45.5% 61.8% 38.2% Eldercide 58.3% 41.7% 85.3% 14.7% Circumstances Felony murder 78.2% 21.8% 93.3% 6.7% Sex related 18.8% 81.2% 93.6% 6.4% Drug related 90.1% 9.9% 95.6% 4.4% Gang related 94.6% 5.4% 98.3% 1.7% Argument 77.9% 22.1% 85.5% 14.5% Workplace 78.3% 21.7% 91.1% 8.9% Weapon Gun homicide 82.7% 17.3% 91.2% 8.8% Arson 56.3% 43.7% 79.1% 20.9% Poison 55.6% 44.4% 63.3% 36.7% Multiple victims or offenders Multiple victims 63.1% 36.9% 93.5% 6.5% Multiple offenders 85.6% 14.4% 91.7% 8.3% Also, I know exactly what you were doing, you were talking about genders in one line and in the next you moved it to nations. You can't swap it around like that.
I don't think you understand what gender neutral means....
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On September 19 2011 03:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:14 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:06 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word. Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you. The insult is based entirely around sex. Bitch means female dog. Dog itself is not an insult (e.g. top dog) so it's the female part of it that makes it an insult. Absolutely incorrect. No one in American culture insults someone because the female dog is the word they are using to describe them. That is a different meaning of the same word that is not an insult and is used separately. You are deriving a sexist insult because you don't realize that in American culture a bitch is either a legitimate term for a female dog or a term for an unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person. They use terms that mean male dog to praise people They use terms that mean female dog to insult people The fact that female dog is interchangeable with "unpleasant, caustic, or troublesome person" while calling someone a dog is interchangeable with calling someone strong, a leader, knows what he's doing is a problem!
To be fair you could separate the term bitch into two separate words and your argument would devolve. The fact that is used to be used for female dog and now means something else is more of a quirk of the language than a direct correlation especially considering the meaning difference.
Dog is not a term for male dog, it is the term for the animal in general. Not sure how you figure it only refers to men, because it doesn't. Secondly, dog as a praising phrase still insults some people and only recently has become popular to express loyalty and unity. The word dog means that, not male or female attached to dog.
You can also insult someone by calling them your dog as in they are less than you, a pet, or something similar. That is gender neutral and had a different insult attached to it than bitch, something that female dog simply doesn't imply or even relate to.
I will not compare racial terms to supposed sexist or misogynistic terms because they are not the same. However, the word cock is a close example. If you call someone a cock they are usually being mean or idiotic. Cock also means rooster. This does not mean that cock is insulting because you are being called a male chicken instead of just a chicken. Being called a cock has an entirely different meaning from being called a chicken.
On September 19 2011 03:14 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +Not the same thing, which you won't understand. You can stop generalizing the community as it is very broad and you will find a little bit of everything inside of it.
You can say context matters but the biggest thing is the person listening. Racism, sexism, and comedy is not some bright red line that you can see otherwise comedians wouldn't be challenging societies perceptions of these things. Many people have zero tolerance for either and others are the opposite extreme.
Comedians challenge social perceptions by unveiling it to the perpetrators in a more palatable form through comedy. They say racist and sexist and misogynist things to get people to laugh. That people laugh does not mean what the comedian said wasn't racist/sexist/misogynistic. It simply means that people are willing to laugh about it. However, in the context Day[9] was saying the phrase, people were okay with it because they agreed with him. Day[9] describes a female acting in a way that he felt was insensitive and unintelligent, so he calls her a dumb bitch. People agree with day[9] that a female that doesn't understand a hobby she is not part of should be called a bitch, because the community at large thinks that is an appropriate description of an uninformed female that doesn't submit to the male will of how gg is supposed to be typed out. If day[9] used a racial slur instead, people would be upset because obviously black people would know how to type gg, only girls don't know how to do that. Do you see the problem?
But you can at least see how comedians' use of such words and taboo have stretched the boundaries to the point where these things are on an entirely different level of cultural acceptance? The racist/misogynistic terms that comedians use now are much different from what used to be acceptable. Granted society changes apart from them, but the way they use them is a reflection upon that.
I can agree with day9 because of how the story goes. If someone was purposefully or consistently using a term incorrectly it would probably be annoying to me and I can see how bitch can describe that.
A racial slur would be strange in that situation as they do not mean that not to mention racial issues are not the same as sexist issues. Beyond that on a personal level I treat racist terms more dangerously than bitch, as I don't attach prejudice to the term bitch as some people might.
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On September 19 2011 03:27 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World. Just saw your edit, so suddenly it's only misogyny that's the problem and not sexism in general? I'm sorry, no, female only leagues, trying to force 50/50 male/female executives in companies even when the females are less qualified, etc, etc, etc. But even if you were wanting to focus on just one side, there are plenty of better areas, I really don't feel the need to Google them for you. Sexism is a expression of misogyny. Rape is currently overwhelmingly by a male against females, the reverse does happen, but its rare. For accuracy, this may reflect the power imbalance that currently exists, as rape of men seems to mainly occur when enormous power differentials are seen (eg. African bushwars, prison gangs). Your easy solution to sexism is to remove even the trappings of trying to reverse entrenched, institutionalised sexism?? (yes, extensive primary literature does exist on sex imbalances in higher positions, but they also highlight that increased female participation reduces the issue of an old boys club and even other non-sex ratio related problems, ergo quotas, multiple citations available on request) What? Whenever someone talks about a problem, you go, look, there's a bigger fire there, why are you even talking about this? Start small and social pressure does the rest. Don't worry about my time.
Murder is overwhelmingly male/male, doesn't mean it's sexist.
There are bigger issues here and my point is that it's silly for you to be going after the smaller ones first when some of the bigger ones could be more easily and quickly solved than this small one. Whereas my sole intention is to defend the gaming community as a whole against sexism claims, at least directed towards the males of the community. The best place to do that is at the very least somewhere on the internet, if not this very topic.
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