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On September 19 2011 02:02 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 01:46 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:43 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 01:29 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:08 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 00:11 HereticSaint wrote:On September 18 2011 14:18 hummingbird23 wrote:
One can say sexist things without being sexist. Just throwing it out there. The same reason one can reinforce homophobia without actually hating on LGBT people by casually using "gay" as an insult.
Social pressure is a powerful thing, just look at how "gay" as an insult was diminished from a generally accepted epithet into a socially dangerous insult (socially dangerous for the user, I mean).
The better reaction to being told that, "That's a sexist thing to say." should be to think about it from a social perspective, not a personal "BUT I'M NOT SEXIST!" Is it true that by saying that, I'm reinforcing a norm that I don't agree with? How much do I care about social norms and their current state, is it enough for me to bother changing my habits, speaking or otherwise?
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. You may have the best of intentions, but do keep in mind that it's not what you intend, its what effect you have that ultimately matters. If you care enough, take the small effort to align your intentions with the effects that your actions have.
HereticSaint, the correct question to ask about vocalizing your attraction is, "Does it make women uncomfortable?" Not, "Am I predisposed to like women and to show it?" There are ways to compliment and show your interest without being creepy and it's a win-win if the gaming community understands this.
The article might fairly or unfairly single out the gaming community. I don't want to get embroiled in a fight over something that's ultimately inconsequential. What it does highlight, however is that the gaming community can reinforce sexist stereotypes (this is very different from calling gamers sexist). The point is, if we, as a community want to be the way forward, to mainstream the hobbies that we care so much about, we need to address these things that make many women uncomfortable. This isn't about Alyssa, her preferences and personality are inconsequential to the argument.
TLDR: Don't kneejerk a "I'm not sexist." or "That's not how I/he intended it.". Listen to what people are saying, if they say it makes them uncomfortable, BELIEVE THEM. Without a doubt, they are a better judge of what makes them uncomfortable than you are. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how people (Whether they are male or female) interpret what I say. I care what I mean when I say things and I care what other people mean when they say things. Intent is everything and if someone chooses to get offended by something I say when I don't mean it in a hateful or derogatory way then that is their issue, not mine. I want you to read that again so you don't misinterpret it, I'm not talking about if I say something hateful intentionally towards someone and then go, "LOLJAYKAY". Just to clarify as well, no, I don't feel at all bad for feeling this way, if you took every single person in the World into consideration with how they may interpret every last little thing you say you wouldn't be speaking a whole lot, or all, so once again, their issue. People are equating real sexism to saying the word, "bitch", if you don't think that's stupid then I don't think very highly of you, I'll leave it at that. This is no different than if someone made a, "racist" joke once in their life, they aren't all of a sudden racist, if some small minority of the population (whether it's people who want to perpetuate racism or the race themselves) take it to heart, then that is their issue. If I all of a sudden said I got offended and felt uncomfortable because people wore red hats, people shouldn't stop wearing red hats and if you think that's ridiculous then realize that both this and getting offended by words themselves and not the intent behind them are both taught behaviors. It would serve the people well who actually want to stop the blatant and damaging sexism to target the people doing the blatant and damaging sexism, you aren't going to make things better by saying someone can't say the word, "bitch" and you aren't going to do it by ranting at a 14 year old over CoD who said, "cunt" and telling them to read a sensationalist article. Don't be fooled, that's exactly what that article is, it's blowing things out of proportion, it's no different then PETA grabbing a bunch of buckets of animal blood and chucking them on people for eating a Big Mac. That isn't how the real World works. Also, it's not a matter of if the article fairly or unfairly targets the gaming community, it does unfairly target the gaming community, it perpetuates this stupid stereotype that gamers are fat, slobby, uneducated people who therefore don't have a girlfriend and therefore jizz their pants the second they hear a female on the other end of Vent, Skype, Xbox live, etc. Now that is the articles -intent- or is it? Well, I believe that's the articles intent but let's shove that under the rug right now. Let's say that isn't the articles intent, well he chose words that made it seem that way and under the your exact ideology of, "Your intent doesn't matter, how people interpret it for themselves should dictate how you say things" (Again, that boggles my mind still, but I digress) and in this case it very much feels like to me and all my friends who have read the article (four at this point) that this article is attacking gamers and seems to be incredibly biased as well by someone preaching utopian ideals upon other people. Anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, don't single out the gaming community for it, especially for things like saying, "bitch", or for backlash at someone for being shallow. Or are we not allowed to interpret what she said to mean what we want it to be (Let's disregard for a minute that she definitely meant exactly what she said), we seem to only be allowed to interpret what I say and only for the sake of argument, sorry I don't role that way and if you keep contradicting yourself I'm not going to keep conversing with you about this. Let's take a look at another word you used in your post source is going to be wikipedia but I doubt that their dates are wildly off or anything, ["Gay is a word that commonly refers to a male or female whose sexual orientation is attraction to persons of the same sex. It was originally used to refer to feelings of being "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"; it had also come to acquire some connotations of "immorality" as early as 1637. The term's use as a reference to homosexuality may date as early as the late 19th century, but its use gradually increased in the 20th century. In modern English, gay has come to be used as an adjective, and occasionally as a noun, referring to the people, especially to men, and the practices and cultures associated with homosexuality. By the end of the 20th century, the word gay was recommended by major style guides to describe people attracted to members of the same sex. At about the same time, a new, pejorative use became prevalent in some parts of the world. In the Anglosphere, this connotation, among younger speakers, has a derisive meaning equivalent to rubbish or stupid (as in "That's so gay."). In this use, the word does not mean "homosexual", so it can be used, for example, to refer to an inanimate object or abstract concept of which one disapproves. This usage can also refer to weakness or unmanliness. When used in this way, the extent to which it still retains connotations of homosexuality has been debated. The word "gay" arrived in English during the 12th century from Old French gai, most likely deriving ultimately from a Germanic source. For most of its life in English, the word's primary meaning was "joyful", "carefree", "bright and showy", and the word was very commonly used with this meaning in speech and literature. For example, the optimistic 1890s are still often referred to as the Gay Nineties. The title of the 1938 French ballet Gaîté Parisienne ("Parisian Gaiety"), which became the 1941 Warner Brothers movie, The Gay Parisian, also illustrates this connotation. It was apparently not until the 20th century that the word began to be used to mean specifically "homosexual", although it had earlier acquired sexual connotations." ]So look at that, it appears a long, long, long time before gay was a, "bad word to say when not saying it in this exact way that I dictate" (Keep in mind it reached that point because of the intent behind the people using the word) that it had quite a few other meanings. Here's the kicker: When I say the word, "gay" about something negative happening I am not taking a shot at homosexuals anymore than I am saying how happy I am that something negative just happened. If someone gets offended that is their own damn problem. I'll just close with for this having nothing to do with me you seem to be holding me to standards that you aren't holding the person who wrote the article to who equates gaming to dressing up like a clown and chucking beer bottles at peoples head, nor are you holding the shallow female who hates gamers to. This debate is going to go in circles and you'd be much better off attacking real sexism, like the fact that there are female only leagues, that they are trying to make the work place have a 50/50 split of female/male executives even if the female executives happen to be less qualified than the male executives, notice I bring up real issues and real sexism, not complain about some random generic swear word that means nothing sexist at all unless the person intends it to. (Again, words change in definition and if they don't, well then gay doesn't even mean homosexual) But yeah, I don't see this going anywhere, not that debates like this generally do but I don't see a point for myself to participate in it any longer. Edit: One last edit to just say, if lorkac actually wanted people to debate him he wouldn't of been blatantly shoving words into other peoples mouths, the end. It doesn't matter what he intended to debate the moment he told people what hey were thinking and what they meant, there's a reason people "ganged up" on him and not other people who shared his views. The article does not hinge upon whether Day9 called someone a bitch. The point of the article was to shine light upon some of the more unpleasant sides of gaming culture. While anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, it remains that gaming culture does share that with society. Misogyny DOES have a foothold in gamer culture, I present you with: Fuck tasteosis, djwheat, jp, husky, and every other SC2 caster. We got James "Motherfucking 2Good" Harding. He's accompanied by a pair of tits, so this will be the greatest tournament ever. Exhibit A. These are not your words, of course, but it's trivially easy to find more examples of this on TL and elsewhere when women are involved. I'm not defending the stereotyping raised by the article. Not at all. I've not defended how the article was written. In any case, the part of your post that I responded to was: I'm happy to agree to disagree, I just want to make it clear I don't believe there's some weird voodoo in our biology that makes us do EVERYTHING that we do, we have free will and can to a varying degree contend with our biology and upbringing, that doesn't mean that I don't think that the average male vocalizing their sexual attraction to a female is wrong or uncommon, or should be either of those though. To which I replied that it was basically in the realm of common courtesy and social etiquette. You have some problem with the idea that how the things that you say are received plays as major a role in communication as how it's intended to sound? "Bloody Jew." is not acceptable, even though the word 'Jew' has a benign meaning, its use as an epithet is heavily frowned upon. The fact that you say 'intent is everything' ignores the effects of what you're saying. You can of course reply, "I don't give a shit..." and that would be entirely your prerogative. However, I'm pointing out that that approach is essentially ostriching the fact that you're propagating or reinforcing a certain social norm whether or not you intend to. Again, it's not about you. You are of course free to say and do anything you want within the law of your country. You can continue to feel that anyone being offended by anything you say is their "own damn problem". Of course that's how I interpret it. But, I mean if we are going to take the route that any word with a negative meaning at face value then I probably should be imprisoned for the amount of times I said I was going to, "kill" or "kick your ass" to one of my friends. (Note: Even if I were to engage in physical combat I would not actually be attempting to kick them in their ass) The difference between saying "I'm going to kick your ass" and "I'm going to kick your ______ ass" is that the former treats the receiver of the comment as a human being while the second is treating the recipient as being a "specific kind" of human being usually with the connotation that that specific kind of human being has an innate negativity about them. So if you were to have said "I'm going to kick your bitch ass" or "....your black ass" or ".... your fruity ass!" Then you are no longer communicating as just the human being in front of you, but a specific type of human being that you feel is inferior to you. Communication is a two way street. You say something, someone is offended. What you said was offensive. You say something offensive, the person doesn't perceive it as such. What you said was still offensive. Things don't stop being offensive language just because one or both sides of the dialogue didn't mind it. The language being the way it is is due to the normalizing of that mindset into society. The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege. Communication is a two way street, I choose what I say and mean, they choose what they say and mean. Society is not a hive mind, I don't intend to shove my ideals or beliefs on someone else, nor do I wish them to do that to me, you know what that's generally called? Religion. People can call me whatever they like, "whitey", "cracker", "vanilla ice", "blondy", "fag", "pussy". If they don't have hateful intent behind it I don't care and will not get offended. I guarantee it. Also, can I get some of that Crystal Ball shit you got going on. Because I certainly would like to be arrogant enough to talk for everyone, as well as know the future. Furthermore I find it hilarious you talk about the societal norm, then act as if because the majority attack you they are odd or wrong. Oh I never said they were odd for attacking me. I said they were odd for attacking women. And of course you wouldn't mind being called a whitey, cracker, vanilla ice, blondy, fag or pussy. You've already said that you don't listen or care for what others think. What I said specifically was Show nested quote +
The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege.
I didn't say that you were being attacked, I said that you're existence was being attacked. When the thing that defines who you are is being used as the measuring stick that defines weakness, or poverty, or slave. When your race, or sex, or orientation is interchangeable with a word that means weak, with a word that means lazy, with a word that means less than. Gay is not offensive because it means homosexual. It's offensive because it means both homosexual AND something that is undesirable. "That's so gay man!" Can both mean "That is so homosexual" AND also mean "That is so undesirable to me" A bitch is not only something that is female, but it is also something that is a dog, something that is whiny, difficult, aggravating, annoying, etc... It carries all those meanings with it equally. They're equivalent to each other in the zeitgeist of society. Being female is equally seen as being annoying, or whiny, or difficult. The existence of the people are being attacked. Try reading the words written down next time. It helps.
Yes, being a bitch is seen as being whiny, difficult, aggravating. A woman can be a bitch, a man can be a bitch. You're attaching this additional meaning to the word and it's an evident stretch.
Bitch isn't a target towards women in that when you say a woman is being a bitch, she's being what you expect a woman to be(which you summarized as annoying, whiny or difficult) it's simply seen as a way of saying, she's being a bitch, as in whiny, annoying, or difficult. You're inserting the sexism here.
On September 19 2011 02:07 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +I've gotten stabbed twice, one time it almost pierced my heart. I had the apartment I was living in broken into and everything stolen (there wasn't much) several times, the drug store down the street got robbed almost twice a week, no I'm not exaggerating and that whole time I was dealing with people walking around with guns, knives and drugs while I was the minority. Overlooking that my schooling was horrendous. Travel nothing, those two states are all I've been too in my entire life and areas in California are very close together. Sorry your Crystal Ball failed you this time.
Edit: Almost forgot not eating for days, not having power and living with roaches crawling all over me essentially giving me asthma. Oh and health issues I have today because I couldn't afford going to the doctor or dentist. Cool story. Glad you could afford apartments and had stores  Also nice to have a neighborhood that people were rich enough to afford guns. I had a friend who died from drinking water. At first we thought it was malaria or dengue fever, but turns out it was just bad water. The bugs, the water, even the food was toxic at times. It's cool you only had to worry about poor people. We did too, but the mosquitos killed people much more often.
Cool story, bro. Let's not turn this into a contest of whose life is shittier. You lived for 14 years in a third world country? I lived for 16 years in a third world country. Get the fuck over it and focus on the arguments being presented instead of making assumptions about people's background.
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On September 19 2011 01:28 The Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 14:18 hummingbird23 wrote:
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. You may have the best of intentions, but do keep in mind that it's not what you intend, its what effect you have that ultimately matters. If you care enough, take the small effort to align your intentions with the effects that your actions have. In general, I agree with this. Just because you don't mean to bash homosexuals by saying 'gay' when something is annoying, or make women uncomfortable by saying 'rape' if your marines are getting wiped out, it doesn't mean that using those words is ok. But, at the same time, there are situations where you can legitimately stand up and say 'you should not be offended by what I'm saying'. Situations such as the recent one where the NAACP claimed racism when a crowd at a college/high school football game held up a banner saying 'YOU MAD BRO?'. I don't care if they get particularly offended in that case, because the sign is so clearly nothing to do with racism. Sure, it's bad sportsmanship to BM somebody like that, but crying racism is ridiculous when you consider that a) the phrase is used a lot by white guys talking to each other, and b) it's just an internet fad and nothing to do with racism. There's got to be a reasonable middle ground where we are sensitive to how our words may be interpreted and also where we stand up for our right to use words and phrases that are objectively clearly not prejudiced.
We agree. However, it is rare that those with little power are able to enact social sanction on their own. For example, homosexuals are a few percent of the population. The reason why 'gay' fell out of general polite usage was because a lot of nonhomosexual people realised that this use of the term was hurtful and perpetuated bigotry, even if they themselves were not necessarily bigots.
Hence, if one is feeling socially oppressed for saying things they believed were not prejudiced, it would appear that quite a significant proportion of their social and professional circle did indeed feel that it was inappropriate enough to comment on it.
@HereticSaint
You're missing the point again with your person that only knows 'gay' as an epithet. It's not about blame, it's not about this person being anti-gay or not. It's about reinforcing social norms. In a group of other people who also know that 'gay' can mean homosexual, it's irrelevant whether or not the user even had the intention to perpetuate that social norm, it happened. Whether its 'right' or 'wrong' that depends on your view of how society should be.
It's a little hard to show you quantitative data on misogyny in gaming culture as compared to elsewhere, but you at least agree with me that there is significant misogyny (if you want I can link you a bunch more quotes from large gaming forums in a heartbeat) and that we should seek to reduce it? Why would one have to prove that one place is more sexist than another before looking to reduce it?
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On September 19 2011 02:07 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +I've gotten stabbed twice, one time it almost pierced my heart. I had the apartment I was living in broken into and everything stolen (there wasn't much) several times, the drug store down the street got robbed almost twice a week, no I'm not exaggerating and that whole time I was dealing with people walking around with guns, knives and drugs while I was the minority. Overlooking that my schooling was horrendous. Travel nothing, those two states are all I've been too in my entire life and areas in California are very close together. Sorry your Crystal Ball failed you this time.
Edit: Almost forgot not eating for days, not having power and living with roaches crawling all over me essentially giving me asthma. Oh and health issues I have today because I couldn't afford going to the doctor or dentist. Cool story. Glad you could afford apartments and had stores Also nice to have a neighborhood that people were rich enough to afford guns. I had a friend who died from drinking water. At first we thought it was malaria or dengue fever, but turns out it was just bad water. The bugs, the water, even the food was toxic at times. It's cool you only had to worry about poor people. We did too, but the mosquitos killed people much more often.
Cool story. Looking at your posting history not just about general life issues but also SC2 it becomes blatantly apparent that you are a troll. You can quote me till you are blue in the face from now on but I am no longer going to humor it, nor am I going to humor anyone quoting him and responding to me. Best I can do without an ignore feature.
On September 19 2011 02:13 hummingbird23 wrote:
@HereticSaint
You're missing the point again with your person that only knows 'gay' as an epithet. It's not about blame, it's not about this person being anti-gay or not. It's about reinforcing social norms. In a group of other people who also know that 'gay' can mean homosexual, it's irrelevant whether or not the user even had the intention to perpetuate that social norm, it happened. Whether its 'right' or 'wrong' that depends on your view of how society should be.
It's a little hard to show you quantitative data on misogyny in gaming culture as compared to elsewhere, but you at least agree with me that there is significant misogyny (if you want I can link you a bunch more quotes from large gaming forums in a heartbeat) and that we should seek to reduce it? Why would one have to prove that one place is more sexist than another before looking to reduce it?
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it.
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Phrases I've heard in vent during some LoL playing just in the last 15 minutes:
"He's coming mid to rape you"
"gonna rape the shit out of..."
"smack a bitch, smack smack smack a bitch"
"fuck this pussy bitch up"
zzzzz
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As for this whole argument, it's fucking idiotic because now apparently when we were being told we said something, we were actually being told that this is what the community does. This shit goes both ways, it balances the fuck out. You can't focus on the negative aspects, avoiding the positives that they're linked to and expect it to reach an equal point. And now, obviously we're fucking privileged and getting defensive when we're responding to arguments presented and getting labels which base themselves on knowledge that you don't fucking have.
The problem with your line of thought that things will just naturally balance out is that it hasn't balanced out for the past 2011 years. How much longer are women and minorities supposed to wait before they finally are treated as equals?
There's no girls in competitive gamine, it must be because their brains are wired that way and not because they find the environment hostile.
TL is composed mostly of whites and asians, it must be because blacks have a problem with their brain too. Right? Right? Like women, maybe they're just not motivated enough, or maybe they're brains aren't volatile enough.
Things don't balance out unless we make them balance out. Having a community be hostile to women will not eventually balance out just by you not caring how offended they feel.
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Yeh he says the quote but OMG you have taken it way out of context, there was nothing wrong with Day[9] saying what he said. He said young due to the fact hes looking back in time and bitch because he was made. I dont know why u have taken such a serious context out of this. Its not like he has slandered every single fucking girl is it?
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On September 19 2011 02:08 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:04 Xaddy wrote:
Ironic how defensive you got when someone claimed you were privileged. You get defensive when you were insulted in a way you found offensive. Do you see a similarity to males using female-coded words as an insult? It's not a problem for the male, it is a problem for the female. (Talking generalities here of course, it's stupid that I even have to point that out. Of course there are males who think it's a problem and there are women who don't think it is.) Ironic how you think I care what word people use when I've already clearly said I do not. Let them use something that is derogatory towards males (Of course, good luck, because all swears seems to be linked to females or another race and none are exclusive to white males except maybe whitey and vanilla ice) and it still doesn't bother me if your intent isn't harmful. If you don't understand that yet I don't know how to say it any more clearly.
THIS is the essence of privilege. Read what you wrote. Read it again and again and again until you get it through your skull that the reason you don't have problems with the shit you say is because you have no inherent societal problems. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
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On September 19 2011 02:19 ChiffonAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:08 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:04 Xaddy wrote:
Ironic how defensive you got when someone claimed you were privileged. You get defensive when you were insulted in a way you found offensive. Do you see a similarity to males using female-coded words as an insult? It's not a problem for the male, it is a problem for the female. (Talking generalities here of course, it's stupid that I even have to point that out. Of course there are males who think it's a problem and there are women who don't think it is.) Ironic how you think I care what word people use when I've already clearly said I do not. Let them use something that is derogatory towards males (Of course, good luck, because all swears seems to be linked to females or another race and none are exclusive to white males except maybe whitey and vanilla ice) and it still doesn't bother me if your intent isn't harmful. If you don't understand that yet I don't know how to say it any more clearly. THIS is the essence of privilege. Read what you wrote. Read it again and again and again until you get it through your skull that the reason you don't have problems with the shit you say is because you have no inherent societal problems. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
There, did I formulate my argument correctly? Because that's the same stupid shit (Note: I did not mean feces, nor was I comparing it to said object) I see posted over and over.
priv·i·lege
/ˈprɪvəlɪdʒ, ˈprɪvlɪdʒ/ Show Spelled [priv-uh-lij, priv-lij] Show IPA noun, verb, -leged, -leg·ing.
noun
1.
a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
2.
a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
3.
a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
4.
the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
5.
any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.
Unless you want to argue willpower, and not making myself slave to a hive mind is privilege you are full of it.
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On September 19 2011 02:20 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:19 ChiffonAngel wrote:On September 19 2011 02:08 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:04 Xaddy wrote:
Ironic how defensive you got when someone claimed you were privileged. You get defensive when you were insulted in a way you found offensive. Do you see a similarity to males using female-coded words as an insult? It's not a problem for the male, it is a problem for the female. (Talking generalities here of course, it's stupid that I even have to point that out. Of course there are males who think it's a problem and there are women who don't think it is.) Ironic how you think I care what word people use when I've already clearly said I do not. Let them use something that is derogatory towards males (Of course, good luck, because all swears seems to be linked to females or another race and none are exclusive to white males except maybe whitey and vanilla ice) and it still doesn't bother me if your intent isn't harmful. If you don't understand that yet I don't know how to say it any more clearly. THIS is the essence of privilege. Read what you wrote. Read it again and again and again until you get it through your skull that the reason you don't have problems with the shit you say is because you have no inherent societal problems. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.There, did I formulate my argument correctly? Because that's the same stupid shit I see posted over and over.
You've got to be a troll. No one can be this stupid.
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On September 19 2011 02:09 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:02 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 01:46 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:43 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 01:29 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:08 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 00:11 HereticSaint wrote:On September 18 2011 14:18 hummingbird23 wrote:
One can say sexist things without being sexist. Just throwing it out there. The same reason one can reinforce homophobia without actually hating on LGBT people by casually using "gay" as an insult.
Social pressure is a powerful thing, just look at how "gay" as an insult was diminished from a generally accepted epithet into a socially dangerous insult (socially dangerous for the user, I mean).
The better reaction to being told that, "That's a sexist thing to say." should be to think about it from a social perspective, not a personal "BUT I'M NOT SEXIST!" Is it true that by saying that, I'm reinforcing a norm that I don't agree with? How much do I care about social norms and their current state, is it enough for me to bother changing my habits, speaking or otherwise?
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. You may have the best of intentions, but do keep in mind that it's not what you intend, its what effect you have that ultimately matters. If you care enough, take the small effort to align your intentions with the effects that your actions have.
HereticSaint, the correct question to ask about vocalizing your attraction is, "Does it make women uncomfortable?" Not, "Am I predisposed to like women and to show it?" There are ways to compliment and show your interest without being creepy and it's a win-win if the gaming community understands this.
The article might fairly or unfairly single out the gaming community. I don't want to get embroiled in a fight over something that's ultimately inconsequential. What it does highlight, however is that the gaming community can reinforce sexist stereotypes (this is very different from calling gamers sexist). The point is, if we, as a community want to be the way forward, to mainstream the hobbies that we care so much about, we need to address these things that make many women uncomfortable. This isn't about Alyssa, her preferences and personality are inconsequential to the argument.
TLDR: Don't kneejerk a "I'm not sexist." or "That's not how I/he intended it.". Listen to what people are saying, if they say it makes them uncomfortable, BELIEVE THEM. Without a doubt, they are a better judge of what makes them uncomfortable than you are. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how people (Whether they are male or female) interpret what I say. I care what I mean when I say things and I care what other people mean when they say things. Intent is everything and if someone chooses to get offended by something I say when I don't mean it in a hateful or derogatory way then that is their issue, not mine. I want you to read that again so you don't misinterpret it, I'm not talking about if I say something hateful intentionally towards someone and then go, "LOLJAYKAY". Just to clarify as well, no, I don't feel at all bad for feeling this way, if you took every single person in the World into consideration with how they may interpret every last little thing you say you wouldn't be speaking a whole lot, or all, so once again, their issue. People are equating real sexism to saying the word, "bitch", if you don't think that's stupid then I don't think very highly of you, I'll leave it at that. This is no different than if someone made a, "racist" joke once in their life, they aren't all of a sudden racist, if some small minority of the population (whether it's people who want to perpetuate racism or the race themselves) take it to heart, then that is their issue. If I all of a sudden said I got offended and felt uncomfortable because people wore red hats, people shouldn't stop wearing red hats and if you think that's ridiculous then realize that both this and getting offended by words themselves and not the intent behind them are both taught behaviors. It would serve the people well who actually want to stop the blatant and damaging sexism to target the people doing the blatant and damaging sexism, you aren't going to make things better by saying someone can't say the word, "bitch" and you aren't going to do it by ranting at a 14 year old over CoD who said, "cunt" and telling them to read a sensationalist article. Don't be fooled, that's exactly what that article is, it's blowing things out of proportion, it's no different then PETA grabbing a bunch of buckets of animal blood and chucking them on people for eating a Big Mac. That isn't how the real World works. Also, it's not a matter of if the article fairly or unfairly targets the gaming community, it does unfairly target the gaming community, it perpetuates this stupid stereotype that gamers are fat, slobby, uneducated people who therefore don't have a girlfriend and therefore jizz their pants the second they hear a female on the other end of Vent, Skype, Xbox live, etc. Now that is the articles -intent- or is it? Well, I believe that's the articles intent but let's shove that under the rug right now. Let's say that isn't the articles intent, well he chose words that made it seem that way and under the your exact ideology of, "Your intent doesn't matter, how people interpret it for themselves should dictate how you say things" (Again, that boggles my mind still, but I digress) and in this case it very much feels like to me and all my friends who have read the article (four at this point) that this article is attacking gamers and seems to be incredibly biased as well by someone preaching utopian ideals upon other people. Anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, don't single out the gaming community for it, especially for things like saying, "bitch", or for backlash at someone for being shallow. Or are we not allowed to interpret what she said to mean what we want it to be (Let's disregard for a minute that she definitely meant exactly what she said), we seem to only be allowed to interpret what I say and only for the sake of argument, sorry I don't role that way and if you keep contradicting yourself I'm not going to keep conversing with you about this. Let's take a look at another word you used in your post source is going to be wikipedia but I doubt that their dates are wildly off or anything, ["Gay is a word that commonly refers to a male or female whose sexual orientation is attraction to persons of the same sex. It was originally used to refer to feelings of being "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"; it had also come to acquire some connotations of "immorality" as early as 1637. The term's use as a reference to homosexuality may date as early as the late 19th century, but its use gradually increased in the 20th century. In modern English, gay has come to be used as an adjective, and occasionally as a noun, referring to the people, especially to men, and the practices and cultures associated with homosexuality. By the end of the 20th century, the word gay was recommended by major style guides to describe people attracted to members of the same sex. At about the same time, a new, pejorative use became prevalent in some parts of the world. In the Anglosphere, this connotation, among younger speakers, has a derisive meaning equivalent to rubbish or stupid (as in "That's so gay."). In this use, the word does not mean "homosexual", so it can be used, for example, to refer to an inanimate object or abstract concept of which one disapproves. This usage can also refer to weakness or unmanliness. When used in this way, the extent to which it still retains connotations of homosexuality has been debated. The word "gay" arrived in English during the 12th century from Old French gai, most likely deriving ultimately from a Germanic source. For most of its life in English, the word's primary meaning was "joyful", "carefree", "bright and showy", and the word was very commonly used with this meaning in speech and literature. For example, the optimistic 1890s are still often referred to as the Gay Nineties. The title of the 1938 French ballet Gaîté Parisienne ("Parisian Gaiety"), which became the 1941 Warner Brothers movie, The Gay Parisian, also illustrates this connotation. It was apparently not until the 20th century that the word began to be used to mean specifically "homosexual", although it had earlier acquired sexual connotations." ]So look at that, it appears a long, long, long time before gay was a, "bad word to say when not saying it in this exact way that I dictate" (Keep in mind it reached that point because of the intent behind the people using the word) that it had quite a few other meanings. Here's the kicker: When I say the word, "gay" about something negative happening I am not taking a shot at homosexuals anymore than I am saying how happy I am that something negative just happened. If someone gets offended that is their own damn problem. I'll just close with for this having nothing to do with me you seem to be holding me to standards that you aren't holding the person who wrote the article to who equates gaming to dressing up like a clown and chucking beer bottles at peoples head, nor are you holding the shallow female who hates gamers to. This debate is going to go in circles and you'd be much better off attacking real sexism, like the fact that there are female only leagues, that they are trying to make the work place have a 50/50 split of female/male executives even if the female executives happen to be less qualified than the male executives, notice I bring up real issues and real sexism, not complain about some random generic swear word that means nothing sexist at all unless the person intends it to. (Again, words change in definition and if they don't, well then gay doesn't even mean homosexual) But yeah, I don't see this going anywhere, not that debates like this generally do but I don't see a point for myself to participate in it any longer. Edit: One last edit to just say, if lorkac actually wanted people to debate him he wouldn't of been blatantly shoving words into other peoples mouths, the end. It doesn't matter what he intended to debate the moment he told people what hey were thinking and what they meant, there's a reason people "ganged up" on him and not other people who shared his views. The article does not hinge upon whether Day9 called someone a bitch. The point of the article was to shine light upon some of the more unpleasant sides of gaming culture. While anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, it remains that gaming culture does share that with society. Misogyny DOES have a foothold in gamer culture, I present you with: Fuck tasteosis, djwheat, jp, husky, and every other SC2 caster. We got James "Motherfucking 2Good" Harding. He's accompanied by a pair of tits, so this will be the greatest tournament ever. Exhibit A. These are not your words, of course, but it's trivially easy to find more examples of this on TL and elsewhere when women are involved. I'm not defending the stereotyping raised by the article. Not at all. I've not defended how the article was written. In any case, the part of your post that I responded to was: I'm happy to agree to disagree, I just want to make it clear I don't believe there's some weird voodoo in our biology that makes us do EVERYTHING that we do, we have free will and can to a varying degree contend with our biology and upbringing, that doesn't mean that I don't think that the average male vocalizing their sexual attraction to a female is wrong or uncommon, or should be either of those though. To which I replied that it was basically in the realm of common courtesy and social etiquette. You have some problem with the idea that how the things that you say are received plays as major a role in communication as how it's intended to sound? "Bloody Jew." is not acceptable, even though the word 'Jew' has a benign meaning, its use as an epithet is heavily frowned upon. The fact that you say 'intent is everything' ignores the effects of what you're saying. You can of course reply, "I don't give a shit..." and that would be entirely your prerogative. However, I'm pointing out that that approach is essentially ostriching the fact that you're propagating or reinforcing a certain social norm whether or not you intend to. Again, it's not about you. You are of course free to say and do anything you want within the law of your country. You can continue to feel that anyone being offended by anything you say is their "own damn problem". Of course that's how I interpret it. But, I mean if we are going to take the route that any word with a negative meaning at face value then I probably should be imprisoned for the amount of times I said I was going to, "kill" or "kick your ass" to one of my friends. (Note: Even if I were to engage in physical combat I would not actually be attempting to kick them in their ass) The difference between saying "I'm going to kick your ass" and "I'm going to kick your ______ ass" is that the former treats the receiver of the comment as a human being while the second is treating the recipient as being a "specific kind" of human being usually with the connotation that that specific kind of human being has an innate negativity about them. So if you were to have said "I'm going to kick your bitch ass" or "....your black ass" or ".... your fruity ass!" Then you are no longer communicating as just the human being in front of you, but a specific type of human being that you feel is inferior to you. Communication is a two way street. You say something, someone is offended. What you said was offensive. You say something offensive, the person doesn't perceive it as such. What you said was still offensive. Things don't stop being offensive language just because one or both sides of the dialogue didn't mind it. The language being the way it is is due to the normalizing of that mindset into society. The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege. Communication is a two way street, I choose what I say and mean, they choose what they say and mean. Society is not a hive mind, I don't intend to shove my ideals or beliefs on someone else, nor do I wish them to do that to me, you know what that's generally called? Religion. People can call me whatever they like, "whitey", "cracker", "vanilla ice", "blondy", "fag", "pussy". If they don't have hateful intent behind it I don't care and will not get offended. I guarantee it. Also, can I get some of that Crystal Ball shit you got going on. Because I certainly would like to be arrogant enough to talk for everyone, as well as know the future. Furthermore I find it hilarious you talk about the societal norm, then act as if because the majority attack you they are odd or wrong. Oh I never said they were odd for attacking me. I said they were odd for attacking women. And of course you wouldn't mind being called a whitey, cracker, vanilla ice, blondy, fag or pussy. You've already said that you don't listen or care for what others think. What I said specifically was
The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege.
I didn't say that you were being attacked, I said that you're existence was being attacked. When the thing that defines who you are is being used as the measuring stick that defines weakness, or poverty, or slave. When your race, or sex, or orientation is interchangeable with a word that means weak, with a word that means lazy, with a word that means less than. Gay is not offensive because it means homosexual. It's offensive because it means both homosexual AND something that is undesirable. "That's so gay man!" Can both mean "That is so homosexual" AND also mean "That is so undesirable to me" A bitch is not only something that is female, but it is also something that is a dog, something that is whiny, difficult, aggravating, annoying, etc... It carries all those meanings with it equally. They're equivalent to each other in the zeitgeist of society. Being female is equally seen as being annoying, or whiny, or difficult. The existence of the people are being attacked. Try reading the words written down next time. It helps. Yes, being a bitch is seen as being whiny, difficult, aggravating. A woman can be a bitch, a man can be a bitch. You're attaching this additional meaning to the word and it's an evident stretch. Bitch isn't a target towards women in that when you say a woman is being a bitch, she's being what you expect a woman to be(which you summarized as annoying, whiny or difficult) it's simply seen as a way of saying, she's being a bitch, as in whiny, annoying, or difficult. You're inserting the sexism here. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:07 lorkac wrote:I've gotten stabbed twice, one time it almost pierced my heart. I had the apartment I was living in broken into and everything stolen (there wasn't much) several times, the drug store down the street got robbed almost twice a week, no I'm not exaggerating and that whole time I was dealing with people walking around with guns, knives and drugs while I was the minority. Overlooking that my schooling was horrendous. Travel nothing, those two states are all I've been too in my entire life and areas in California are very close together. Sorry your Crystal Ball failed you this time.
Edit: Almost forgot not eating for days, not having power and living with roaches crawling all over me essentially giving me asthma. Oh and health issues I have today because I couldn't afford going to the doctor or dentist. Cool story. Glad you could afford apartments and had stores Also nice to have a neighborhood that people were rich enough to afford guns. I had a friend who died from drinking water. At first we thought it was malaria or dengue fever, but turns out it was just bad water. The bugs, the water, even the food was toxic at times. It's cool you only had to worry about poor people. We did too, but the mosquitos killed people much more often. Cool story, bro. Let's not turn this into a contest of whose life is shittier. You lived for 14 years in a third world country? I lived for 16 years in a third world country. Get the fuck over it and focus on the arguments being presented instead of making assumptions about people's background.
Cool. You lived 16 years in a third world country, I lived 14 years in a third world country and hereticsaint lived in a 1st world country. Yet we're all privileged enough to own computers and play SC2.
I was making a point that him living in a poor part of town doesn't mean he isn't privileged. Much like I myself am privileged enough to have been able to move out of my country and now own my own computer.
As for the whole "bitch" comment you made. Bitch has as part of its meaning being female. For you to pretend otherwise is silly. When you call a guy a bitch, you're telling him he's acting like a girl.
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On September 19 2011 02:08 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:04 Xaddy wrote:
Ironic how defensive you got when someone claimed you were privileged. You get defensive when you were insulted in a way you found offensive. Do you see a similarity to males using female-coded words as an insult? It's not a problem for the male, it is a problem for the female. (Talking generalities here of course, it's stupid that I even have to point that out. Of course there are males who think it's a problem and there are women who don't think it is.) Ironic how you think I care what word people use when I've already clearly said I do not. Let them use something that is derogatory towards males (Of course, good luck, because all swears seems to be linked to females or another race and none are exclusive to white males except maybe whitey and vanilla ice) and it still doesn't bother me if your intent isn't harmful. If you don't understand that yet I don't know how to say it any more clearly.
I understand you, and what you're saying is my point. If you're in a situation where you actually don't care what's being said to you you're privileged. Don't assume others' are in the same situation, it's social imperalism. We are different people, we have different experiences. Is it really unreasonable to argue that women, who've had their gender used derogatorily their entire lives eventually start taking offense from it?
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More wild assumptions, maybe I'm at a public library. I apparently play SC2 as well, could have fooled me.
Would like to point out I don't recall blatantly calling anyone a name in this thread (besides the writer of the article), yet two separate users have directly used names towards me. (With negative/hateful intent) Huh, funny how they are the ones who want censorship.
On September 19 2011 02:26 Xaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:08 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:04 Xaddy wrote:
Ironic how defensive you got when someone claimed you were privileged. You get defensive when you were insulted in a way you found offensive. Do you see a similarity to males using female-coded words as an insult? It's not a problem for the male, it is a problem for the female. (Talking generalities here of course, it's stupid that I even have to point that out. Of course there are males who think it's a problem and there are women who don't think it is.) Ironic how you think I care what word people use when I've already clearly said I do not. Let them use something that is derogatory towards males (Of course, good luck, because all swears seems to be linked to females or another race and none are exclusive to white males except maybe whitey and vanilla ice) and it still doesn't bother me if your intent isn't harmful. If you don't understand that yet I don't know how to say it any more clearly. I understand you, and what you're saying is my point. If you're in a situation where you actually don't care what's being said to you you're privileged. Don't assume others' are in the same situation, it's social imperalism. We are different people, we have different experiences. Is it really unreasonable to argue that women, who've had their gender used derogatorily their entire lives eventually start taking offense from it?
No, but they also shouldn't blame me for said behavior because I choose to use words without intent behind them. Just the same that if I start wearing pink I'm not perpetuating negative associations between pink and feminine qualities or homophobia.
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On September 19 2011 02:18 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +As for this whole argument, it's fucking idiotic because now apparently when we were being told we said something, we were actually being told that this is what the community does. This shit goes both ways, it balances the fuck out. You can't focus on the negative aspects, avoiding the positives that they're linked to and expect it to reach an equal point. And now, obviously we're fucking privileged and getting defensive when we're responding to arguments presented and getting labels which base themselves on knowledge that you don't fucking have. The problem with your line of thought that things will just naturally balance out is that it hasn't balanced out for the past 2011 years. How much longer are women and minorities supposed to wait before they finally are treated as equals? There's no girls in competitive gamine, it must be because their brains are wired that way and not because they find the environment hostile. TL is composed mostly of whites and asians, it must be because blacks have a problem with their brain too. Right? Right? Like women, maybe they're just not motivated enough, or maybe they're brains aren't volatile enough. Things don't balance out unless we make them balance out. Having a community be hostile to women will not eventually balance out just by you not caring how offended they feel.
Or maybe they just don't want to play fucking Starcraft. You're behind a keyboard, when playing Starcraft you don't even have to talk, to reveal that you're a girl,everyone's anonymous as fuck most of the time. And we still see disparities, maybe these disparities exist because not everything is going to have equal numbers of everyone. I'd be willing to acknowledge that there was a massive barrier to women in Starcraft if I actually saw any evidence of such a barrier existing.
What I see is simple, you are behind a monitor, with the benefit of anonymity and the ability to play the fucking game just like everyone else.
Are we shutting black people out of Starcraft 2 as well? How come there are no high tier black progamers? Hmmmm...? Maybe because sometimes that shit just happens. Yes, there is discrimination and yes it does affect the number of people involved in something, I see no reason to believe that is the case here.
Saying, "There are not that many women in Starcraft because they're treated like shit" is no different than saying "Maybe it's because they don't like it as much or less of them want to play seriously", it's just a fucking statement. Yours is just as possible but there's no reason for me to believe it right now. Right now, I just see, less women play, no women are really present at the top tier, I don't believe what you're saying so adamantly because it's no more likely than any of the other reasons presented.
On September 19 2011 02:24 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:09 Mordiford wrote:On September 19 2011 02:02 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 01:46 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:43 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 01:29 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 01:08 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 00:11 HereticSaint wrote:On September 18 2011 14:18 hummingbird23 wrote:
One can say sexist things without being sexist. Just throwing it out there. The same reason one can reinforce homophobia without actually hating on LGBT people by casually using "gay" as an insult.
Social pressure is a powerful thing, just look at how "gay" as an insult was diminished from a generally accepted epithet into a socially dangerous insult (socially dangerous for the user, I mean).
The better reaction to being told that, "That's a sexist thing to say." should be to think about it from a social perspective, not a personal "BUT I'M NOT SEXIST!" Is it true that by saying that, I'm reinforcing a norm that I don't agree with? How much do I care about social norms and their current state, is it enough for me to bother changing my habits, speaking or otherwise?
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. You may have the best of intentions, but do keep in mind that it's not what you intend, its what effect you have that ultimately matters. If you care enough, take the small effort to align your intentions with the effects that your actions have.
HereticSaint, the correct question to ask about vocalizing your attraction is, "Does it make women uncomfortable?" Not, "Am I predisposed to like women and to show it?" There are ways to compliment and show your interest without being creepy and it's a win-win if the gaming community understands this.
The article might fairly or unfairly single out the gaming community. I don't want to get embroiled in a fight over something that's ultimately inconsequential. What it does highlight, however is that the gaming community can reinforce sexist stereotypes (this is very different from calling gamers sexist). The point is, if we, as a community want to be the way forward, to mainstream the hobbies that we care so much about, we need to address these things that make many women uncomfortable. This isn't about Alyssa, her preferences and personality are inconsequential to the argument.
TLDR: Don't kneejerk a "I'm not sexist." or "That's not how I/he intended it.". Listen to what people are saying, if they say it makes them uncomfortable, BELIEVE THEM. Without a doubt, they are a better judge of what makes them uncomfortable than you are. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how people (Whether they are male or female) interpret what I say. I care what I mean when I say things and I care what other people mean when they say things. Intent is everything and if someone chooses to get offended by something I say when I don't mean it in a hateful or derogatory way then that is their issue, not mine. I want you to read that again so you don't misinterpret it, I'm not talking about if I say something hateful intentionally towards someone and then go, "LOLJAYKAY". Just to clarify as well, no, I don't feel at all bad for feeling this way, if you took every single person in the World into consideration with how they may interpret every last little thing you say you wouldn't be speaking a whole lot, or all, so once again, their issue. People are equating real sexism to saying the word, "bitch", if you don't think that's stupid then I don't think very highly of you, I'll leave it at that. This is no different than if someone made a, "racist" joke once in their life, they aren't all of a sudden racist, if some small minority of the population (whether it's people who want to perpetuate racism or the race themselves) take it to heart, then that is their issue. If I all of a sudden said I got offended and felt uncomfortable because people wore red hats, people shouldn't stop wearing red hats and if you think that's ridiculous then realize that both this and getting offended by words themselves and not the intent behind them are both taught behaviors. It would serve the people well who actually want to stop the blatant and damaging sexism to target the people doing the blatant and damaging sexism, you aren't going to make things better by saying someone can't say the word, "bitch" and you aren't going to do it by ranting at a 14 year old over CoD who said, "cunt" and telling them to read a sensationalist article. Don't be fooled, that's exactly what that article is, it's blowing things out of proportion, it's no different then PETA grabbing a bunch of buckets of animal blood and chucking them on people for eating a Big Mac. That isn't how the real World works. Also, it's not a matter of if the article fairly or unfairly targets the gaming community, it does unfairly target the gaming community, it perpetuates this stupid stereotype that gamers are fat, slobby, uneducated people who therefore don't have a girlfriend and therefore jizz their pants the second they hear a female on the other end of Vent, Skype, Xbox live, etc. Now that is the articles -intent- or is it? Well, I believe that's the articles intent but let's shove that under the rug right now. Let's say that isn't the articles intent, well he chose words that made it seem that way and under the your exact ideology of, "Your intent doesn't matter, how people interpret it for themselves should dictate how you say things" (Again, that boggles my mind still, but I digress) and in this case it very much feels like to me and all my friends who have read the article (four at this point) that this article is attacking gamers and seems to be incredibly biased as well by someone preaching utopian ideals upon other people. Anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, don't single out the gaming community for it, especially for things like saying, "bitch", or for backlash at someone for being shallow. Or are we not allowed to interpret what she said to mean what we want it to be (Let's disregard for a minute that she definitely meant exactly what she said), we seem to only be allowed to interpret what I say and only for the sake of argument, sorry I don't role that way and if you keep contradicting yourself I'm not going to keep conversing with you about this. Let's take a look at another word you used in your post source is going to be wikipedia but I doubt that their dates are wildly off or anything, ["Gay is a word that commonly refers to a male or female whose sexual orientation is attraction to persons of the same sex. It was originally used to refer to feelings of being "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"; it had also come to acquire some connotations of "immorality" as early as 1637. The term's use as a reference to homosexuality may date as early as the late 19th century, but its use gradually increased in the 20th century. In modern English, gay has come to be used as an adjective, and occasionally as a noun, referring to the people, especially to men, and the practices and cultures associated with homosexuality. By the end of the 20th century, the word gay was recommended by major style guides to describe people attracted to members of the same sex. At about the same time, a new, pejorative use became prevalent in some parts of the world. In the Anglosphere, this connotation, among younger speakers, has a derisive meaning equivalent to rubbish or stupid (as in "That's so gay."). In this use, the word does not mean "homosexual", so it can be used, for example, to refer to an inanimate object or abstract concept of which one disapproves. This usage can also refer to weakness or unmanliness. When used in this way, the extent to which it still retains connotations of homosexuality has been debated. The word "gay" arrived in English during the 12th century from Old French gai, most likely deriving ultimately from a Germanic source. For most of its life in English, the word's primary meaning was "joyful", "carefree", "bright and showy", and the word was very commonly used with this meaning in speech and literature. For example, the optimistic 1890s are still often referred to as the Gay Nineties. The title of the 1938 French ballet Gaîté Parisienne ("Parisian Gaiety"), which became the 1941 Warner Brothers movie, The Gay Parisian, also illustrates this connotation. It was apparently not until the 20th century that the word began to be used to mean specifically "homosexual", although it had earlier acquired sexual connotations." ]So look at that, it appears a long, long, long time before gay was a, "bad word to say when not saying it in this exact way that I dictate" (Keep in mind it reached that point because of the intent behind the people using the word) that it had quite a few other meanings. Here's the kicker: When I say the word, "gay" about something negative happening I am not taking a shot at homosexuals anymore than I am saying how happy I am that something negative just happened. If someone gets offended that is their own damn problem. I'll just close with for this having nothing to do with me you seem to be holding me to standards that you aren't holding the person who wrote the article to who equates gaming to dressing up like a clown and chucking beer bottles at peoples head, nor are you holding the shallow female who hates gamers to. This debate is going to go in circles and you'd be much better off attacking real sexism, like the fact that there are female only leagues, that they are trying to make the work place have a 50/50 split of female/male executives even if the female executives happen to be less qualified than the male executives, notice I bring up real issues and real sexism, not complain about some random generic swear word that means nothing sexist at all unless the person intends it to. (Again, words change in definition and if they don't, well then gay doesn't even mean homosexual) But yeah, I don't see this going anywhere, not that debates like this generally do but I don't see a point for myself to participate in it any longer. Edit: One last edit to just say, if lorkac actually wanted people to debate him he wouldn't of been blatantly shoving words into other peoples mouths, the end. It doesn't matter what he intended to debate the moment he told people what hey were thinking and what they meant, there's a reason people "ganged up" on him and not other people who shared his views. The article does not hinge upon whether Day9 called someone a bitch. The point of the article was to shine light upon some of the more unpleasant sides of gaming culture. While anyone can reinforce sexist stereotypes, it remains that gaming culture does share that with society. Misogyny DOES have a foothold in gamer culture, I present you with: Fuck tasteosis, djwheat, jp, husky, and every other SC2 caster. We got James "Motherfucking 2Good" Harding. He's accompanied by a pair of tits, so this will be the greatest tournament ever. Exhibit A. These are not your words, of course, but it's trivially easy to find more examples of this on TL and elsewhere when women are involved. I'm not defending the stereotyping raised by the article. Not at all. I've not defended how the article was written. In any case, the part of your post that I responded to was: I'm happy to agree to disagree, I just want to make it clear I don't believe there's some weird voodoo in our biology that makes us do EVERYTHING that we do, we have free will and can to a varying degree contend with our biology and upbringing, that doesn't mean that I don't think that the average male vocalizing their sexual attraction to a female is wrong or uncommon, or should be either of those though. To which I replied that it was basically in the realm of common courtesy and social etiquette. You have some problem with the idea that how the things that you say are received plays as major a role in communication as how it's intended to sound? "Bloody Jew." is not acceptable, even though the word 'Jew' has a benign meaning, its use as an epithet is heavily frowned upon. The fact that you say 'intent is everything' ignores the effects of what you're saying. You can of course reply, "I don't give a shit..." and that would be entirely your prerogative. However, I'm pointing out that that approach is essentially ostriching the fact that you're propagating or reinforcing a certain social norm whether or not you intend to. Again, it's not about you. You are of course free to say and do anything you want within the law of your country. You can continue to feel that anyone being offended by anything you say is their "own damn problem". Of course that's how I interpret it. But, I mean if we are going to take the route that any word with a negative meaning at face value then I probably should be imprisoned for the amount of times I said I was going to, "kill" or "kick your ass" to one of my friends. (Note: Even if I were to engage in physical combat I would not actually be attempting to kick them in their ass) The difference between saying "I'm going to kick your ass" and "I'm going to kick your ______ ass" is that the former treats the receiver of the comment as a human being while the second is treating the recipient as being a "specific kind" of human being usually with the connotation that that specific kind of human being has an innate negativity about them. So if you were to have said "I'm going to kick your bitch ass" or "....your black ass" or ".... your fruity ass!" Then you are no longer communicating as just the human being in front of you, but a specific type of human being that you feel is inferior to you. Communication is a two way street. You say something, someone is offended. What you said was offensive. You say something offensive, the person doesn't perceive it as such. What you said was still offensive. Things don't stop being offensive language just because one or both sides of the dialogue didn't mind it. The language being the way it is is due to the normalizing of that mindset into society. The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege. Communication is a two way street, I choose what I say and mean, they choose what they say and mean. Society is not a hive mind, I don't intend to shove my ideals or beliefs on someone else, nor do I wish them to do that to me, you know what that's generally called? Religion. People can call me whatever they like, "whitey", "cracker", "vanilla ice", "blondy", "fag", "pussy". If they don't have hateful intent behind it I don't care and will not get offended. I guarantee it. Also, can I get some of that Crystal Ball shit you got going on. Because I certainly would like to be arrogant enough to talk for everyone, as well as know the future. Furthermore I find it hilarious you talk about the societal norm, then act as if because the majority attack you they are odd or wrong. Oh I never said they were odd for attacking me. I said they were odd for attacking women. And of course you wouldn't mind being called a whitey, cracker, vanilla ice, blondy, fag or pussy. You've already said that you don't listen or care for what others think. What I said specifically was
The reason that you feel it's okay to say things that other people might find offensive is because you're not the person whose existence is being attacked. Whose being is not being used to define something is weak, or unmotivated, or unskilled. It is privilege.
I didn't say that you were being attacked, I said that you're existence was being attacked. When the thing that defines who you are is being used as the measuring stick that defines weakness, or poverty, or slave. When your race, or sex, or orientation is interchangeable with a word that means weak, with a word that means lazy, with a word that means less than. Gay is not offensive because it means homosexual. It's offensive because it means both homosexual AND something that is undesirable. "That's so gay man!" Can both mean "That is so homosexual" AND also mean "That is so undesirable to me" A bitch is not only something that is female, but it is also something that is a dog, something that is whiny, difficult, aggravating, annoying, etc... It carries all those meanings with it equally. They're equivalent to each other in the zeitgeist of society. Being female is equally seen as being annoying, or whiny, or difficult. The existence of the people are being attacked. Try reading the words written down next time. It helps. Yes, being a bitch is seen as being whiny, difficult, aggravating. A woman can be a bitch, a man can be a bitch. You're attaching this additional meaning to the word and it's an evident stretch. Bitch isn't a target towards women in that when you say a woman is being a bitch, she's being what you expect a woman to be(which you summarized as annoying, whiny or difficult) it's simply seen as a way of saying, she's being a bitch, as in whiny, annoying, or difficult. You're inserting the sexism here. On September 19 2011 02:07 lorkac wrote:I've gotten stabbed twice, one time it almost pierced my heart. I had the apartment I was living in broken into and everything stolen (there wasn't much) several times, the drug store down the street got robbed almost twice a week, no I'm not exaggerating and that whole time I was dealing with people walking around with guns, knives and drugs while I was the minority. Overlooking that my schooling was horrendous. Travel nothing, those two states are all I've been too in my entire life and areas in California are very close together. Sorry your Crystal Ball failed you this time.
Edit: Almost forgot not eating for days, not having power and living with roaches crawling all over me essentially giving me asthma. Oh and health issues I have today because I couldn't afford going to the doctor or dentist. Cool story. Glad you could afford apartments and had stores Also nice to have a neighborhood that people were rich enough to afford guns. I had a friend who died from drinking water. At first we thought it was malaria or dengue fever, but turns out it was just bad water. The bugs, the water, even the food was toxic at times. It's cool you only had to worry about poor people. We did too, but the mosquitos killed people much more often. Cool story, bro. Let's not turn this into a contest of whose life is shittier. You lived for 14 years in a third world country? I lived for 16 years in a third world country. Get the fuck over it and focus on the arguments being presented instead of making assumptions about people's background. Cool. You lived 16 years in a third world country, I lived 14 years in a third world country and hereticsaint lived in a 1st world country. Yet we're all privileged enough to own computers and play SC2. I was making a point that him living in a poor part of town doesn't mean he isn't privileged. Much like I myself am privileged enough to have been able to move out of my country and now own my own computer. As for the whole "bitch" comment you made. Bitch has as part of its meaning being female. For you to pretend otherwise is silly. When you call a guy a bitch, you're telling him he's acting like a girl.
Are you serious, you're focussing on the female part instead of the dog part? That's all you buddy. When I use it, it's because someone is being a bitch, not because they're behaving like a girl.
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On September 19 2011 02:19 GamerSyneX wrote:
Yeh he says the quote but OMG you have taken it way out of context, there was nothing wrong with Day[9] saying what he said. He said young due to the fact hes looking back in time and bitch because he was made. I dont know why u have taken such a serious context out of this. Its not like he has slandered every single fucking girl is it?
Funny you say that because the author of the article actually loves Day[9] and says that he's awesome. He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it.
He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up.
How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying. But not just day[9], but everyone else in the gaming community are given a free pass to say comments like that since the gaming community doesn't really care.
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This thread really needs to be closed, this discussion is going way offtopic and out of hand........
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Day[9], you are a horrible and reprehensible person for saying the word, "bitch" I can no longer actively be a fan of yours until you give a public apology that is seen and accepted not only by the person who you called a, "bitch", but also everyone who has viewed the stream and/or VoD's in question. I also request the immediate removal of all VoD's of these games and legal action to be taken against anyone who posts them in the future. The word, "bitch" is far too severe to let slide.
(That was sarcasm)
And for good measure [NSFW Day 9]: Day[9] FTW
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On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it.
Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Also try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security.
You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio.
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On September 19 2011 02:35 HereticSaint wrote:Day[9], you are a horrible and reprehensible person for saying the word, "bitch" I can no longer actively be a fan of yours until you give a public apology that is seen and accepted not only by the person who you called a, "bitch", but also everyone who has viewed the stream and/or VoD's in question. I also request the immediate removal of all VoD's of these games and legal action to be taken against anyone who posts them in the future. The word, "bitch" is far too severe to let slide. (That was sarcasm) And for good measure [NSFW Day 9]: Day[9] FTW
If Day[9] had said nigger, or polack, or towel head people would be upset. But he only called her a bitch, calling someone black, polish or middle eastern is offensive but calling them a woman whiny unlikable woman is perfectly okay.
Is that what you're saying?
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On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio.
Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:09 Mordiford wrote:
Yes, being a bitch is seen as being whiny, difficult, aggravating. A woman can be a bitch, a man can be a bitch. You're attaching this additional meaning to the word and it's an evident stretch.
Bitch isn't a target towards women in that when you say a woman is being a bitch, she's being what you expect a woman to be (which you summarized as annoying, whiny or difficult) it's simply seen as a way of saying, she's being a bitch, as in whiny, annoying, or difficult. You're inserting the sexism here.
The sexism comes in where it's used as an insult that is based around negative stereotypically female traits. It's equating being a woman with being annoying, whiny or difficult, and anyone who expresses these traits must be just like those annoying, whiny and difficult women.
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