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On September 19 2011 02:29 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:19 GamerSyneX wrote:
Yeh he says the quote but OMG you have taken it way out of context, there was nothing wrong with Day[9] saying what he said. He said young due to the fact hes looking back in time and bitch because he was made. I dont know why u have taken such a serious context out of this. Its not like he has slandered every single fucking girl is it?
Funny you say that because the author of the article actually loves Day[9] and says that he's awesome. He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it. He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up. How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying. But not just day[9], but everyone else in the gaming community are given a free pass to say comments like that since the gaming community doesn't really care.
You willingly choose to comprehend things poorly and differently from what most people feel is correct. The internet uses a term for that, but I do not want to be derogatory.
Let me explain my understanding.
He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it.
He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up.
How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying.
These two do not exist on this earth at the same time without contradicting. The author willingly makes it seem like a nice person is sexist consistently as a basis for portraying an entire group of people as sexist which is an awful thing to do as a person let alone as an author. To top it off in actuality it is a huge false claim given without context seeing as how the vast majority of people understand the concept of comedy and realize it in such a situation. Even then this person is a community figure who is known enough to not be defined as sexist in the public viewpoint.
There's more to your post but it isn't worth discussing.
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This discussion has turned into a plain "I am right, you'r wrong" childish arguement that will never see any end nor will turn anyone's opinion. Seriously, if anything, this whole topic shows how, mostly, alot of the people in esports (at least this community right here) are still too immature to actually discuss a serious subject without resorting to pulling all sorts of other subjects into it just to be "right" in something or plainly discussing a completely different subject as if it's the same thing. On top of that, insults are thrown out left and right to one and another, under a discussion that is supposed to about sexism/being offended in a gaming community. If a outsider read this they would facepalm and not be surprised one bit to hear that a community discussing such a subject in this matter is most likely filled with sexism towards women. (as a matter of fact, nummerous sexism posts have come up in this topic already *gasp*)
Of course, I don't believe this applies to every poster in here, nor am I saying this because I feel I am better then anyone in here. This is just my opinion that has formed after reading all the posts here, nothing more, nothing less.
And you know what, opinions are pretty much the foundation of every discussion one can possibly imagine. One person throws out his/her opinion on a subject to one another and gets a reply in the form of their opinion, in general on the subject at hand or a opinion on your opinion. This will go on and on and on till one of the sides just simply changes his/her opinion or gives up discussing the matter.
Nothing wrong with that as long as it kept at a decent intelligent level, but this "discussion" here has turned more into epeen fight about who's right or wrong in general then a civilized discussion about sexism in esports concerning females.
Which in turn is rather amusing to see such a topic being discussed by almost only males (which perhaps has some connection with where the "discussion" is turning into). And with that isn't even something wrong, if it wasn't for the fact at least half of the people in here act like they know what they are talking about when it comes to this subject when they are not female, nor being offended in the gaming community because of it.
Ooh well, this is just my two cents on it. Most likely I will get bashed for it, because someone failed to see that what has been stated here by me is just a opinion/view from me and not me putting forth actual facts. Perhaps a warning/ban from a moderator, which I will not blame any of them for doing if they find my post is really that offensive, though will leave me wondering how some of you here got away with no warning/ban at all.....
In the end, one has to say, or at least I will, discussions are such a funny thing to follow, don't you agree? ^ ^
Ps, I do hope most of you will at least shift back to the subject of this topic, instead of jumping from one to another.
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Are you serious, you're focussing on the female part instead of the dog part? That's all you buddy. When I use it, it's because someone is being a bitch, not because they're behaving like a girl.
Oh, glad you mention this actually.
Calling someone a dog is a sign of respect. Bitch is specifically a dog that is female and hence does not deserve respect.
Hence why terms such as "alpha dog" "big dog" "leader of the pack" etc... are used to showcase superiority. Bitch is defining something as a female dog and hence is a being whose purpose is to be fucked by alpha dogs.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too.
You don't fix problems by finding the worst problem, focussing entirely on that until it's solved then moving down the list. It's perfectly possible to try and fight all forms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. at the same time. Sure some sexism is worse than others, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the less bad things.
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On September 19 2011 02:42 Gnight wrote:
This discussion has turned into a plain "I am right, you'r wrong" childish arguement that will never see any end nor will turn anyone's opinion. Seriously, if anything, this whole topic shows how, mostly, alot of the people in esports (at least this community right here) are still too immature to actually discuss a serious subject without resorting to pulling all sorts of other subjects into it just to be "right" in something or plainly discussing a completely different subject as if it's the same thing. On top of that, insults are thrown out left and right to one and another, under a discussion that is supposed to about sexism/being offended in a gaming community. If a outsider read this they would facepalm and not be surprised one bit to hear that a community discussing such a subject in this matter is most likely filled with sexism towards women. (as a matter of fact, nummerous sexism posts have come up in this topic already *gasp*)
Of course, I don't believe this applies to every poster in here, nor am I saying this because I feel I am better then anyone in here. This is just my opinion that has formed after reading all the posts here, nothing more, nothing less.
And you know what, opinions are pretty much the foundation of every discussion one can possibly imagine. One person throws out his/her opinion on a subject to one another and gets a reply in the form of their opinion, in general on the subject at hand or a opinion on your opinion. This will go on and on and on till one of the sides just simply changes his/her opinion or gives up discussing the matter.
Nothing wrong with that as long as it kept at a decent intelligent level, but this "discussion" here has turned more into epeen fight about who's right or wrong in general then a civilized discussion about sexism in esports concerning females.
Which in turn is rather amusing to see such a topic being discussed by almost only males (which perhaps has some connection with where the "discussion" is turning into). And with that isn't even something wrong, if it wasn't for the fact at least half of the people in here act like they know what they are talking about when it comes to this subject when they are not female, nor being offended in the gaming community because of it.
Ooh well, this is just my two cents on it. Most likely I will get bashed for it, because someone failed to see that what has been stated here by me is just a opinion/view from me and not me putting forth actual facts. Perhaps a warning/ban from a moderator, which I will not blame any of them for doing if they find my post is really that offensive, though will leave me wondering how some of you here got away with no warning/ban at all.....
In the end, one has to say, or at least I will, discussions are such a funny thing to follow, don't you agree? ^ ^
Ps, I do hope most of you will at least shift back to the subject of this topic, instead of jumping from one to another.
We have discussions about murder as well. Clearly a majority of us are murderers, really?
Also don't martyr (Talk about warnings/bans in your posts, that will get you warned/banned more than anything else) that being said everything is tentatively on topic so I'll have to disagree with that part of your post as well.
On September 19 2011 02:44 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You don't fix problems by finding the worst problem, focussing entirely on that until it's solved then moving down the list. It's perfectly possible to try and fight all forms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. at the same time. Sure some sexism is worse than others, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the less bad things.
I disagree with you. I'm sure you want to retort me at this point but this is purely opinion, I genuinely hope that you can agree to disagree with me here. I think focusing on the problem areas is best, you think trying to do the widespread solution all at once is best. We disagree and we shouldn't argue opinion as fact. (unless one of us whips up a study, one that would have to be so widespread it could probably never happen).
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On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too.
Asking people to try not being offensive is trying to fix everything at once?
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:42 Percutio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:29 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 02:19 GamerSyneX wrote:
Yeh he says the quote but OMG you have taken it way out of context, there was nothing wrong with Day[9] saying what he said. He said young due to the fact hes looking back in time and bitch because he was made. I dont know why u have taken such a serious context out of this. Its not like he has slandered every single fucking girl is it?
Funny you say that because the author of the article actually loves Day[9] and says that he's awesome. He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it. He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up. How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying. But not just day[9], but everyone else in the gaming community are given a free pass to say comments like that since the gaming community doesn't really care. You willingly choose to comprehend things poorly and differently from what most people feel is correct. The internet uses a term for that, but I do not want to be derogatory. Let me explain my understanding. Show nested quote +
He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it.
He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up.
How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying.
These two do not exist on this earth at the same time without contradicting. The author willingly makes it seem like a nice person is sexist consistently as a basis for portraying an entire group of people as sexist which is an awful thing to do as a person let alone as an author. To top it off in actuality it is a huge false claim given without context seeing as how the vast majority of people understand the concept of comedy and realize it in such a situation. Even then this person is a community figure who is known enough to not be defined as sexist in the public viewpoint. There's more to your post but it isn't worth discussing.
He really doesn't the author's point is that even the nicest most lovable people can be sexist at times. In the article the part about that quote is about 3-4 lines, which is promptly followed by about 20 saying Day[9] is an excellent thing for gamers and how much he loves his attitude towards it. He isn't trying to make Day[9] out as some horrible sexist pig, just that everyone says stuff sometimes that offends people with out them realising and it's those other people's job to tell them that it's offensive and they shouldn't do it.
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it is a huge false claim given without context seeing as how the vast majority of people understand the concept of comedy and realize it in such a situation
Yes.
When you're derogatory against black people, it's racist. When you are derogatory against women, it's comedy.
That is the nature of our community, the esports community, a community that "isn't as bad as other communities." When we make fun of women, it's okay, people should laugh because that's okay.
Do you see anything wrong with that?
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I just can't get enough of cocky 80-pound Asians dropping Manner Mules on each other.
Racist much, Mr Geordie Tait?
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On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too.
You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture.
In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem).
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:44 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You don't fix problems by finding the worst problem, focussing entirely on that until it's solved then moving down the list. It's perfectly possible to try and fight all forms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. at the same time. Sure some sexism is worse than others, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the less bad things. I disagree with you. I'm sure you want to retort me at this point but this is purely opinion, I genuinely hope that you can agree to disagree with me here. I think focusing on the problem areas is best, you think trying to do the widespread solution all at once is best. We disagree and we shouldn't argue opinion as fact. (unless one of us whips up a study, one that would have to be so widespread it could probably never happen).
I think it's the case though that more effort is put towards worse issues. Hypothetically if Day[9] had something along the lines of 'it's gg you young bitch. God why are all women so stupid" (which he wouldn't because he is a lovely person) then a lot more people would be angry and saying that was a bad thing to say. I think this approaches a middle ground between focussing on everything equally and focussing only on the worst of the issues, which I feel is the best solution. You're entitled to you're opinion, I just wanted to make mine clear.
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On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem).
You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion.
On September 19 2011 02:55 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:44 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You don't fix problems by finding the worst problem, focussing entirely on that until it's solved then moving down the list. It's perfectly possible to try and fight all forms of sexism, racism, homophobia etc. at the same time. Sure some sexism is worse than others, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the less bad things. I disagree with you. I'm sure you want to retort me at this point but this is purely opinion, I genuinely hope that you can agree to disagree with me here. I think focusing on the problem areas is best, you think trying to do the widespread solution all at once is best. We disagree and we shouldn't argue opinion as fact. (unless one of us whips up a study, one that would have to be so widespread it could probably never happen). I think it's the case though that more effort is put towards worse issues. Hypothetically if Day[9] had something along the lines of 'it's gg you young bitch. God why are all women so stupid" (which he wouldn't because he is a lovely person) then a lot more people would be angry and saying that was a bad thing to say. I think this approaches a middle ground between focussing on everything equally and focussing only on the worst of the issues, which I feel is the best solution. You're entitled to you're opinion, I just wanted to make mine clear.
Even if you feel targeting "everywhere" at once is the best course of action, I'd argue going after an otherwise loveable figure and over something that likely a majority of the community would find mundane (at least comparative to other phrases/words) such as, "bitch" is the wrong thing to do.
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I just read the article, i need to go puke
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On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion.
How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to?
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On September 19 2011 02:51 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +it is a huge false claim given without context seeing as how the vast majority of people understand the concept of comedy and realize it in such a situation Yes. When you're derogatory against black people, it's racist. When you are derogatory against women, it's comedy. That is the nature of our community, the esports community, a community that "isn't as bad as other communities." When we make fun of women, it's okay, people should laugh because that's okay. Do you see anything wrong with that?
Not the same thing, which you won't understand. You can stop generalizing the community as it is very broad and you will find a little bit of everything inside of it.
You can say context matters but the biggest thing is the person listening. Racism, sexism, and comedy is not some bright red line that you can see otherwise comedians wouldn't be challenging societies perceptions of these things. Many people have zero tolerance for either and others are the opposite extreme.
On September 19 2011 02:48 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:42 Percutio wrote:On September 19 2011 02:29 lorkac wrote:On September 19 2011 02:19 GamerSyneX wrote:
Yeh he says the quote but OMG you have taken it way out of context, there was nothing wrong with Day[9] saying what he said. He said young due to the fact hes looking back in time and bitch because he was made. I dont know why u have taken such a serious context out of this. Its not like he has slandered every single fucking girl is it?
Funny you say that because the author of the article actually loves Day[9] and says that he's awesome. He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it. He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up. How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying. But not just day[9], but everyone else in the gaming community are given a free pass to say comments like that since the gaming community doesn't really care. You willingly choose to comprehend things poorly and differently from what most people feel is correct. The internet uses a term for that, but I do not want to be derogatory. Let me explain my understanding.
He's simply showing that even the lovable day[9] says sexist things all the time and that his future daughter shouldn't be so surprised by it.
He then provides the exact words that Day[9] used to show that he's not making it up.
How is that taking it out of context? He essentially says that day[9] messed up once but that he's still awesome and that the problem is that the community is not more self aware about the problem and allowed day[9] a free pass for saying.
These two do not exist on this earth at the same time without contradicting. The author willingly makes it seem like a nice person is sexist consistently as a basis for portraying an entire group of people as sexist which is an awful thing to do as a person let alone as an author. To top it off in actuality it is a huge false claim given without context seeing as how the vast majority of people understand the concept of comedy and realize it in such a situation. Even then this person is a community figure who is known enough to not be defined as sexist in the public viewpoint. There's more to your post but it isn't worth discussing. He really doesn't the author's point is that even the nicest most lovable people can be sexist at times. In the article the part about that quote is about 3-4 lines, which is promptly followed by about 20 saying Day[9] is an excellent thing for gamers and how much he loves his attitude towards it. He isn't trying to make Day[9] out as some horrible sexist pig, just that everyone says stuff sometimes that offends people with out them realising and it's those other people's job to tell them that it's offensive and they shouldn't do it.
And my point is that he gave a non example of being sexist which is one of the things you can pull out of that.
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
It was comedy and not even crude comedy considering. People are insulted by different things regardless of context and people take insults differently. As a man if I am insulted by being called a bitch I take it as someone calling me whiny, annoying, or unpleasant. Some people, regardless of their sex, will take it a step further and consider it being called a whiny, annoying, or unpleasant woman. Still other people will derive a different meaning entirely.
Option B is a case where a woman attaches a negative female image to the word bitch and is offended by it. This is not always the case beyond the fact that some women aren't offended by the word bitch regardless.
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On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to?
I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World.
Suddenly it's only misogyny that's the problem and not sexism in general? I'm sorry, no, female only leagues, trying to force 50/50 male/female executives in companies even when the females are less qualified, etc, etc, etc. But even if you were wanting to focus on just one side, there are plenty of better areas, I really don't feel the need to Google them for you.
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Such a stupid Thread.../close pls
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is:
sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.
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On September 19 2011 03:04 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:59 Percutio wrote:
Could he have insulted someone? Absolutely.
Could he have insulted someone due to their sex? Of course.
Was it sexist? No.
That is exactly what sexism is: Show nested quote +sex·ism
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.
Absolutely, as soon as the individual places the weight of sex on the word.
Which is 100% individual when the person who said it can't imply that it was because of someone's sex. Which is exactly this case. You have to externally make it sexist in your eyes and no one can derive that for you.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 19 2011 03:02 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:58 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:55 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:53 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:40 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 02:36 hummingbird23 wrote:On September 19 2011 02:16 HereticSaint wrote:
So if I start saying the word kill it is perpetuating murder. Sorry, not going to buy that.
The point is if you are going to target something you deem a problem you should start with the areas you can effect the most with the least amount of effort. That isn't the 14 year olds playing CoD and this isn't about, "Well, we can try to do it everywhere at once" you should be focusing your view on the real problem areas once again, not some 14 year old who said, "whore" to another male.
Data is important, data is everything, I don't care about a few articles. Just about everywhere I have been has been less censored about females than the gaming community, maybe if you talk about the internet in general that's different, but if you are looking to censor the internet then I wish you luck sir, you'll need it. Actually, yes, in some contexts it can be instigation to murder. Try repeatedly making jokes about 'killing' people while passing through security. You'll not find me dissing data, but quantitative data is hard to get and harder to interpret, especially in sociology. I'll leave that up to the academics in the appropriate field to dig through the literature. But that's not the point, the point I've made and you continue to ignore is that there is misogyny in gaming culture. It doesn't have to be much much worse than society in general for people to want to reduce it. Saying 'Oh, we're better than this internet in general." really isn't saying much. Just on point, the person I quoted to you was no 14 year old, that was MattO1337, one of the hosters of Barcraft Parma/Ohio. Saying something is somewhere when it exists everywhere isn't an argument. It just isn't. There's homophobia in SC, there's racism in SC and the real kind too, not just I say some words and don't mean harm by them. The fact of the matter is you are doing just what politicians are doing when they look at the budget, "Let's try and fix everything at once" and they throw funds at fixing issues which are way more minor and harder to fix than larger issues which would be much easier to fix and would be the best course of action to focus on. I realize I'm reiterating myself here, but that's because you are too. You're painting this as an either/or situation when it isn't. Misogyny exists in gaming culture. This you don't deny. Whether it exists elsewhere is not the point, we're talking about misogyny in gaming culture. In a budget, you have only so much money to spend. It's a resource allocation exercise in limited resources. In this case, I'm only advocating to avoid using words like 'rape' to denote one player totally outplaying the other. It's not a choice between this and fixing the "really large" problems (which most of the time, you'd be doing by social pressure anyway, unless you're in a position of power relative to the problem). You are definitely correct you don't have a budget of money, but you do have a budget of time, no one has unlimited amounts of time. All I'm saying is that in my opinion it's better to preach at more severe, larger areas of sexism that are more easily fixed. If you disagree then that's fine, I respect your opinion. How is avoiding the use of 'rape' a use of time? Just curious, when you say "more severe, larger areas of [misogyny] that are more easily fixed" (corrected for accuracy), what easily fixed areas are you referring to? I'm saying using your time to convince people that rape (How is this even valid, this is a term that I deem as general as, "murder" in the sense of how it affects the sexes...and if you disagree I'd almost have to say you are sexist, but I digress) is a word that shouldn't be used to describe things other than rape in a game is less effective than actually trying to make a larger difference elsewhere in the real World..
In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult.
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EPT
