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I think anyone who takes the stance that any gaming community (At least the ones I've been a part of) is more misogynistic than other areas of life is full of shit until they provide statistics.
That's just me though.
I don't think the author's argument is that the gaming community is more misogynistic than other arenas of human life, but he intends to confront the insidious misogyny that is freely propagated within.
I still haven't seen anyone here discuss the meat of the article: How about the way that some male gamers often feel entitled to a girlfriend? How about the rampant Nice-Guyism that goes on, where guys feel that they are somehow more refined and therefore better than the males women often choose to be involved with? How about the fact that many women think gaming is a turn-off, and for good reason? These are some of the conversation points I was looking for in here since I read the article, not just comments about the Day9 quote.
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Day9 is the most sexiest man in esports
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On September 18 2011 00:31 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 00:12 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2011 00:01 DerNebel wrote:
Saying the community overreacted out of sexism to the Gizmodo article about Jon Finkel is just plain dumb. He is the Jordan of MtG, beloved player and overall nice guy, and he was being humiliated by some girl who could not see past that he was good at some card-game. The community would have reacted the same if Jon Finkel was gay and the Gizmodo writer had been a dude.
The Day[9] quote is taken out of context, because he was actually mostly ridiculing his young self for being pissed off about this sort of thing. He might have said 'bitch' that time, but he has done that several times as obvious parody. One time he called his mother a bitch for crying out loud!
I'm not going to read the article in full, sue me. If the author gets paid per hit, which is likely, due to the sensationalist nature of the article, then I won't pay him off. Also, the two incidents quoted have obvious flaws insofar as they are used to argue for gamer sexism. A woman is allowed to find MtG off-putting in a man. She is also allowed to post about how off-putting she finds this on a blog, and while I agree the tone of her article was utterly obnoxious it is not a valid excuse for the hordes of "dumb bitch, how dare she dislike Jon Finkel" posts all on the internet. That's sexism in action and if you say anything like "well she deserved it" then you're just victim-blaming. What next, "well she deserved to be raped with that shirt and saying those mean things" ? Not only is it a valid excuse, it's a valid reason. You see, if someone acts like a shallow cunt, you validate everyone who calls her a shallow cunt. Is she ALLOWED to dislike someone for playing magic? Yeah, she is. Is she allowed to tell the world? Absolutely. Is it hideously shallow and a disgusting character trait? You know it is. Are people absolutely correct in calling it like they see it? Yes. If someone behaves like a total tool, you're justified in telling them they're behaving like a total tool. And you are behaving like a total tool, especially with that final sentence. Talk about a ludicrous hyperbole.
Would you say it's a hideously shallow and disgusting character trait to not want to date football players?
For various reasons I wouldn't date a devoutly religious girl, am I shallow and disgusting to you?
When you answer no to both of those please tell me why it's different when it's MTG.
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On September 18 2011 11:42 Falling wrote:
I feel you're conflating 'natural' as in societal norm, everyone does it and biological as in you are acting on instinct and have no choice in the matter. The fellow I was originally directing at kept popping in with: Can't help it. Biology. Read it.
As for your examples, I'm not going to evaluate whether they are sexist or not. But in both cases there was a choice to open your mouth. The natural part is remembering the girl an hour later. She was attractive, she'll stick in your mind. I'd argue that's natural and even biological.
My view is that a human male vocalizing his attraction to a female is as natural as another mammal in the wild doing the same thing, even if that involves chirping noises whereas we go, "I want to tap dat ass". I think it is 100% ingrained in our biology, of course not for everyone, but there are varying forms of behavior everywhere, from the animal kingdom to ourselves.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, I just want to make it clear I don't believe there's some weird voodoo in our biology that makes us do EVERYTHING that we do, we have free will and can to a varying degree contend with our biology and upbringing, that doesn't mean that I don't think that the average male vocalizing their sexual attraction to a female is wrong or uncommon, or should be either of those though.
On September 18 2011 12:29 PanDMonium wrote:Show nested quote +I think anyone who takes the stance that any gaming community (At least the ones I've been a part of) is more misogynistic than other areas of life is full of shit until they provide statistics.
That's just me though. I don't think the author's argument is that the gaming community is more misogynistic than other arenas of human life, but he intends to confront the insidious misogyny that is freely propagated within. I still haven't seen anyone here discuss the meat of the article: How about the way that some male gamers often feel entitled to a girlfriend? How about the rampant Nice-Guyism that goes on, where guys feel that they are somehow more refined and therefore better than the males women often choose to be involved with? How about the fact that many women think gaming is a turn-off, and for good reason? These are some of the conversation points I was looking for in here since I read the article, not just comments about the Day9 quote.
The...insidious misogyny that is freely propagated within... you mean by the minority of the community, the minority that is young teenage males who just found out about masturbation and pornography. What a noble and just cause, that's definitely the best place to start and that will have a good impact and result on reducing said behavior. Oh wait, no it won't because if you have a 14 year old spamming sexist comments over his xbox 360 mic the second he hears a female voice it's because he has awful parenting and some random bloglike articles aren't going to change that at all. There are much better areas to target than the young teen boys which are a majority of the sexism in the gaming community, go fight the noble cause directed towards adults perpetuating it. Starting with the young children in the gaming community wont work just like rec centers in low income neighborhoods attempting to reduce criminal activity and drugs wont work, you can rant a while at the young children but the moment they go home you still have the adults peddling drugs on their front door.
There's 0 reason to target the gaming community, yet he did it. Then some people felt the need to not just say the gaming community was misogynistic, but much more misogynistic than any other area of life they have ever seen -BY FAR-. I'm sorry I don't take kindly to someone dumping on the whole community with not a single study or statistic to back it up when I flat out haven't experienced this hugely misogynistic portion of the community they are talking about. I've experienced retarded 14 year olds who spam chicks over CoD who at the same time say just as hateful things towards other races and homosexuals.
I could give a shit why women think gaming is a turn off, it's their own damn fault for believing articles like the one in the OP, riddled with opinion and maybe a sexist quote here and there but no facts whatsoever. If a stupid chick wants to think more highly of someone because they throw a ball around all day rather than someone who spends hours using their brain to intellectually think things through and who also maintains a healthy physique then that is their issue, not the gamers.
As for your BS about gamers feeling entitled to a girlfriend, haven't experienced that more than anywhere else in life, in fact I struggled to think of one time that's happened amongst any male gamer I know and not once has that happened ever. As for the nice guyism, same thing, any intelligent man knows that if a girl is constantly complaining about her boyfriend and not him it's because she isn't in an active relationship with him but the other guy and so she has to deal with far more personal issues with the other guy whereas her relationship with friend guy is just that, a casual friendship. That's exactly why you have situations where there's a guy who's a friend with another guy and his girlfriend and he ends up sleeping with the girlfriend.
The moment someone can bring me statistics that the gaming community is more sexist than a majority of other areas in life as well as some sort of evidence whatsoever that targeting the majority of the gamers who are sexist (Most of which will probably be the 14 year olds on CoD) is the best course of action to counteract this. I'm talking about real sexism by the way, not saying the word, "bitch".
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There being cultures "more" misogynistic than the culture you yourself are in, does not mean you culture is not misogynous.
Esports is misogynist.
Is it more misogynist than vaginal circumcision? No. Does that mean the esport community is not misogynist? No. Does Esport being misogynist make it evil? No. Could it be better? Yes.
If it could be better, why not try to be better?
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The...insidious misogyny that is freely propagated within... you mean by the minority of the community, the minority that is young teenage males who just found out about masturbation and pornography.
If that's the only example you can think of when it comes to misogyny, the "minority" of young teens, than it leads me to believe you are either willfully ignoring everyone else, or you may not always be able to identify misogyny when confronted with it.
There's 0 reason to target the gaming community, yet he did it. Then some people felt the need to not just say the gaming community was misogynistic, but much more misogynistic than any other area of life they have ever seen -BY FAR-.
While the article confronts misogyny he has observed within the gaming community, I didn't read any comment stating "the gaming community is misogynistic," or "more misogynistic than other communities." This seems to be your defensiveness on the matter, which I find I little off-putting. I too am a gamer, and I don't feel offended by this article. I don't know why you would be.
If a stupid chick wants to think more highly of someone because they throw a ball around all day rather than someone who spends hours using their brain to intellectually think things through and who also maintains a healthy physique then that is their issue, not the gamers.
Okay, this is an example of what the article is talking about. Why is it in the example you create, the girl is obviously stupid if she is turned-off by gaming? Why would you assume in this example that she would prefer a partner that throws a ball around? Why would a healthy physique not be considered a characteristic of a gamer?
As for your BS about gamers feeling entitled to a girlfriend, haven't experienced that more than anywhere else in life, in fact I struggled to think of one time that's happened amongst any male gamer I know and not once has that happened ever. As for the nice guyism...
Yeah, I feel that forest may be being missed for the trees in these examples.
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Esports is misogynist.
Misogyny seems to be a byproduct of any male-dominated culture. But nowhere in Esports does it seem misogyny is a tenet. I do not think that Esports itself as deliberately exclusive and demeaning toward women. Women just don't seem to want to get involved, and I don't blame them.
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One can say sexist things without being sexist. Just throwing it out there. The same reason one can reinforce homophobia without actually hating on LGBT people by casually using "gay" as an insult.
Social pressure is a powerful thing, just look at how "gay" as an insult was diminished from a generally accepted epithet into a socially dangerous insult (socially dangerous for the user, I mean).
The better reaction to being told that, "That's a sexist thing to say." should be to think about it from a social perspective, not a personal "BUT I'M NOT SEXIST!" Is it true that by saying that, I'm reinforcing a norm that I don't agree with? How much do I care about social norms and their current state, is it enough for me to bother changing my habits, speaking or otherwise?
IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. You may have the best of intentions, but do keep in mind that it's not what you intend, its what effect you have that ultimately matters. If you care enough, take the small effort to align your intentions with the effects that your actions have.
HereticSaint, the correct question to ask about vocalizing your attraction is, "Does it make women uncomfortable?" Not, "Am I predisposed to like women and to show it?" There are ways to compliment and show your interest without being creepy and it's a win-win if the gaming community understands this.
The article might fairly or unfairly single out the gaming community. I don't want to get embroiled in a fight over something that's ultimately inconsequential. What it does highlight, however is that the gaming community can reinforce sexist stereotypes (this is very different from calling gamers sexist). The point is, if we, as a community want to be the way forward, to mainstream the hobbies that we care so much about, we need to address these things that make many women uncomfortable. This isn't about Alyssa, her preferences and personality are inconsequential to the argument.
TLDR: Don't kneejerk a "I'm not sexist." or "That's not how I/he intended it.". Listen to what people are saying, if they say it makes them uncomfortable, BELIEVE THEM. Without a doubt, they are a better judge of what makes them uncomfortable than you are.
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lets all agree that physical attraction has nothing to do with sexist.
Lets take a bisexual man. he sees a hot guy ans says "i'd love to get his pants off". He sees a hot girl and says "I'd love to get her pants off".
He does the same thing for both sexes. therefore attraction and the desire to sex someone up is based not on gender but on attraction to physical features.
Or the man is being sexist towards men and women? How is that possible? maybe sexism is normal behavior? Maybe the human mind insists on sectioning and dividing things into categories, so that people can go on with living without getting bogged down looking at too much all at once like autistics? Maybe sexism comes from ideals about what a male or female should be, and thus noone can avoid being sexist?
After all, go to any "love" website to get hooked up. Their questions go:
What do you look for?
What do you find attractive?
Whats your goals in life?
Do you want kids?
if someone answers all these questions that fit with yours, and you get a hard on for them cause of their tastes without even seeing them, is it not sexist as well? By your argument, its the thought of wanting to sleep with them BECAUSE of an attribute that makes a person sexist.
Therefore, to want to sleep with a person because of looks is sexist.
to want to sleep with a person you've never seen but because of similar interests is sexist.
Therefore, sexism is not about physical appearance at all? Even though that's how you were quantifying it? That if a person wants to sleep someone solely on the ATTRIBUTE of physical appearance, they're sexist. But someone wants to sleep with someone on the ATTRIBUTE of bank account or being into dogs, its still the same thing,. An attribute that causes a person to desire another for sexual needs.
So what you're really saying is that whenever a person has a desire to sleep with someone, its always sexist?
I'm following your logic here.
Every person's idea of "the right guy" or "the right girl" is therefore also sexist.
So, if your ideal of "the right guy", is someone who's complete unsexist, and has a host of other trivial bits you want, such as nice, caring, buff, etc, You're actively being sexist in seeking out that guy, who you want to be completely nonsexist. Because if this guy turns you on, hes fitting your desired attributes in a male, therefore you're being sexist, by your logic of "If you desire someone based on some attribute that makes them better choice than the others, you're sexist". So you ironically end up being sexist.
And please don't say that these things aren't superficial like looks. They are superficial from your point of view. Because you will ignore or discard the notion of any other guy who doesn't fit those. so you're seeking something in a very narrow, or superficial, field of view. Therefore you turn out to be just as sexist and superficial.
You see, do you want to date someone thats universally called "a loser" by society? Why not? because you want someone who's a winner right? Because you want someone who has mioney and can take care of themselves and is, in societal terms "going somewhere". so you want someone ambitious, who can fit in with society.
Well look at that, you want someone not based on their internal self or some idea of love, but from what you get by being with them.
Selfish and superficial, eh?
Thats what you silly humans are like. every hypocritical. You go around judging others for the very things you're guilty of, hiding your own guilt by degrees of ignored self circumspection and rationalizing.
its like you are unable to see through the window because you're facing off at an angle to it, even though its right there.
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No one is saying being attracted to women is sexist.
Mistreating and objectifying the opposite sex is sexist.
Being unable to differentiate the two seems to be this thread's problem.
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How the fuck does this guy have this much to say, about an issue as silly as what he is discussing.........
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Looks like this guy is a prime example of bullshit journalism
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Just today watching the dreamhack stream the woman commentator giving interviews up on stage said something like "that match really blew me away" and her male partner said, jokingly of course, "say that again. that last part." It took her a second to see what he was getting at, and smiled awkwardly and said no. I was kind of shocked myself. There was a lot of similarly in-poor-taste banter that existed only because she was a woman.
The article raises a lot of good points and should be taken seriously. (Even if it got Day9's quote wrong.)
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^ then I suggest the bitch thinks about possible interpretive meanings of what she says before she says it
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 18 2011 15:36 LicH. wrote:
^ then I suggest the bitch thinks about possible interpretive meanings of what she says before she says it
.........
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On September 18 2011 11:06 deek wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W4tMRveozY&t=20m00s20 minutes in close enough id say "it is a formal sign of resignation and respect... you young bitch!" now you can focus on the article at hand rather than debate on one single quote
Thank you for finding this. If people would have actually used their brains and read the mod edit, they'd realize that all that said at the top of the page was that Day9 didn't say it in daily #100. I was also becoming increasingly sure I'd heard it somewhere from him. I admit I got a guilty laugh out of it though. Now maybe people can actually read the article, assuming they are giving reading comprehension a second try.
And regarding that article, it's absolutely depressing and telling that he proceeds to show the ridiculous backlash the lady in question received, and instead of asking ourselves any tough questions, or denouncing the hate she received, the man's journalism is immediately attacked. Could people try any harder to avoid the actual issue? Sure maybe most people aren't sexist or rude that way, but to deny that it's a problem in the gaming community is just bizarre. Maybe that's your experience. I, however, have played both DotA and WoW and as they are hugely popular games, I can tell you that sexism is widespread. Enter the SlayerS_Eve and Lindsey Sporrer mini-dramas and you get more of the same
No, just because women sometimes use sex to their advantage doesn't excuse poor behavior for men. Nor should you think that all women behave that way and start crying "double standard!" If we want to take turns setting the bar a little lower between men and women, by all means, continue in this vein. Just know that, imo, historically it has men been dominating expectations and women acquiescing.
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On September 18 2011 15:34 Kyrth wrote:
Just today watching the dreamhack stream the woman commentator giving interviews up on stage said something like "that match really blew me away" and her male partner said, jokingly of course, "say that again. that last part." It took her a second to see what he was getting at, and smiled awkwardly and said no. I was kind of shocked myself. There was a lot of similarly in-poor-taste banter that existed only because she was a woman.
The article raises a lot of good points and should be taken seriously. (Even if it got Day9's quote wrong.) No, it did not raise good points, and no, it should not be taken seriously. Guys tease others guys similarly all the time, in fact I could very well see myself [in front of a crowd or not] saying that to any guy commentator for laughs.
The claims of sexism are, at bottom, by people who genuinely view women as emotionally weak and incapable of the same abuse everyone gets [themselves sexist, in other words], or by self hating males coming from the depths of San Francisco.
Thats about it.
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I find it interesting that despite being given direct evidence of misogyny happening currently in highly public, highly broadcasted moments in starcraft2 (not even bringing supposedly lower brow CoD folks that are accused by people on this thread) that there are still folks who like to pretend that there isn't a problem of misogyny in esports in general.
Day 9, Mr.Bitters, Husky, etc... Have all said multiple times the phrase "blew me away" or "I was blown away" and other iterations of the phrase. Not once in any of the mlg or dreamhack games did DJwheat or Apollo or any other co caster turn to them and asked them to talk about blowjobs. Why? Because they weren't female. It happens to a woman in front a giant crowd of men, and when it's pointed people get upset.
And this is just sc2. What about those other games with immature jocks playing them (supposedly), those madden or call of duty or halo guys. Do you believe they aren't at least as "good" as sc2 fans?
Evidence exists that the esports establishment both belittle and alienate women. Grow a pair and stop pretending it doesn't happen.
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Well that wasn't the only thing he said to her. It was in the contest of various jokes about him wanting to date her, hit on her, etc. I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it, but it sure looked like it was making her uncomfortable. These jokes existed only because of her gender. His banter with totalbiscuit was about other things.
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I think someone should write an article about how sexism is always related to misogyny. They're practically used interchangeably even though they mean different things.
On September 18 2011 16:41 lorkac wrote:
Grow a pair and stop pretending it doesn't happen.
Are you being ironic or do you not realize this is exactly the same as saying "stop being a bitch"
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EPT
