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Esports is very very misogynistic.
Yeah, I don't feel that the behavior of certain individuals should be taken to represent eSports culture as a whole. No one (well, at least me) is pretending that it doesn't happen. Someone brought up the callous use of the word "rape" to describe the outcome of certain matches is an example of this.
But my point is that eSports is centered around competitive gaming, not the exclusion and degradation of women. Please do not use the behavior of select group of people to stigmatize the entire competitive gaming world. I, for one, do not do this.
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I was simply showing that "being sexist and misogynistic" doesn't mean you say bad things to and about women. My telling a male to grow a pair is me being misogynistic. You see, misogyny attacks men as much as women. When to start treating the idea of female as something demeaning--it is sexist and misogynistic.
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On September 18 2011 17:09 PanDMonium wrote:Yeah, I don't feel that the behavior of certain individuals should be taken to represent eSports culture as a whole. No one (well, at least me) is pretending that it doesn't happen. Someone brought up the callous use of the word "rape" to describe the outcome of certain matches is an example of this. But my point is that eSports is centered around competitive gaming, not the exclusion and degradation of women. Please do not use the behavior of select group of people to stigmatize the entire competitive gaming world. I, for one, do not do this.
Does the esport community punish or stop the objectification and degradation of the women in it's social sphere when they are publicly mocked and attacked by it's members? When they are being objectified by it's members? From Eve to sporrer to telling a model to talk about blowjobs in front of a crowd of men--they are not stopped or looked down upon. There is no attempt to male the scene welcoming to women and when a tournament popped up in order to allow females to compete in an environment where they fee safe and comfortable--they get told by the community to shut it down.
That's not counting the culture competitive sports in general has of celebrating masculinity and using feminine terms to poke fun and belittle the losers.
Just because esports doesn't go around pouring acid in women's faces doesn't mean the esports community isn't misogynistic.
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oh come on can this be really an issue, it's not like people never insult males so why should we not insult females i mean what's your point it seems to me that you think every female needs help or that they cannot defend or speak for themselves.
no ty i know starcraft 2 female and what they speak about is their "tit-bonus".
ALL THE TIME ........GIMME A BREAK!
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On September 18 2011 18:03 Ju!cy wrote:
oh come on can this be really an issue, it's not like people never insult males so why should we not insult females i mean what's your point it seems to me that you think every female needs help or that they cannot defend or speak for themselves.
no ty i know starcraft 2 female and what they speak about is their "tit-bonus".
ALL THE TIME ........GIMME A BREAK!
Males are never made fun of for being men.
When you say phrases like "You're the man!" "Man up!" "Grow a pair" You're telling people to be more male because it is understood that being more male is desirable.
For example.
It's not sexist or misogynistic to say to a female "You cheesy piece of shit!" Because that statement does not use gendered terms to showcase your disdain and anger. If you get angry and yell to at a woman saying phrases such as "YOU SPAWN CAMPING CHEATER!" or "NOOB!" or whatever else insult you'd like to throw at them that isn't derogatory towards the female gender--then it isn't sexist.
For example.
People are more comfortable calling someone they dislike a "stupid bitch" than they are to say "stupid nigger" because most people feel saying the word nigger is insensitive and is going too far, but it's okay to call someone a stupid bitch. This is because, while we have mostly learned as a people to not attack someone by saying they're as ______ as someone of a specific race, we are perfectly okay attacking someone by saying they're as _______ as a female.
If I got angry and called someone a cocksucker even though that person was a straight white male--no one would bat an eyelash that I was describing him as either gay/female. If I called that exact same person a nigger--people would get upset and even tell me "hey dude, he's white, not black."
Do you see what I'm talking about? Words matter.
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On September 18 2011 16:41 lorkac wrote:
Day 9, Mr.Bitters, Husky, etc... Have all said multiple times the phrase "blew me away" or "I was blown away" and other iterations of the phrase. Not once in any of the mlg or dreamhack games did DJwheat or Apollo or any other co caster turn to them and asked them to talk about blowjobs. Why? Because they weren't female. It happens to a woman in front a giant crowd of men, and when it's pointed people get upset.
yeah, because straight guys generally don't give blowjobs.
i've read a decent amount on today's gender issues and people like you really over-represent the problem. there are "pros" and "cons" to each gender in western society (if women have it so bad, why do men kill themselves at a staggeringly higher rate?), but hyper-feminist bullshit usually focuses on stuff like listing movies in which the main characters are male and then declaring how marginalized the female is due to this. there are even those that compare gender relations to racism (or even slavery) and it would be sort of comical if it wasn't insulting to groups that are (or have been in the past) actually oppressed.
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Sure is a lot of privilege in this thread. Part of that being expressed by people defending "male mentality/biology" and that allowances need to be made for them. Not once has anyone legitimately entertained the idea of giving allowances to "female mentality/biology." That would mean having to give up the privilege of being catered to by others. It's up to the female gamers to grow a thicker skin or to just put up with all the shit in gaming communities if they want to be a part of them. Why do female gamers have to do all the work in a space that claims to be "genderless?" Why is it the responsibility of female gamers to mentally prepare themselves for all the misogynistic talk that is prevalent in any community (even though we're talking about gaming communities here)? When is it a male gamer's responsibility to not say horrible, misogynistic things? The same thing applies to every other classification (race, sexual orientation, etc.) and that needs to be checked too, but this article and this thread is about sexism.
There are women's-only groups for similar reasons why there are gay-only groups: a safe space to play where they don't have to be subjected to attitudes and speech that reduce their enjoyment of a game that is played socially.
All I'm seeing with people defending against the idea that there's no sexism or misogyny in gaming culture or that it's not a big deal is a bunch of privileged people who don't want to give up their entitlement to being ugly towards others.
One only needs to look as far as the shoryuken.com forums to see just how ugly gamers can get towards females. I remember at one point, it was trendy to have an avatar on there of gifs depicting kicking pregnant women down flights of stairs. <sarcasm>How could that possibly be considered sexist or misogynistic?</sarcasm>
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On September 18 2011 18:16 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 18:03 Ju!cy wrote:
oh come on can this be really an issue, it's not like people never insult males so why should we not insult females i mean what's your point it seems to me that you think every female needs help or that they cannot defend or speak for themselves.
no ty i know starcraft 2 female and what they speak about is their "tit-bonus".
ALL THE TIME ........GIMME A BREAK! Males are never made fun of for being men. When you say phrases like "You're the man!" "Man up!" "Grow a pair" You're telling people to be more male because it is understood that being more male is desirable. For example. It's not sexist or misogynistic to say to a female "You cheesy piece of shit!" Because that statement does not use gendered terms to showcase your disdain and anger. If you get angry and yell to at a woman saying phrases such as "YOU SPAWN CAMPING CHEATER!" or "NOOB!" or whatever else insult you'd like to throw at them that isn't derogatory towards the female gender--then it isn't sexist. For example. People are more comfortable calling someone they dislike a "stupid bitch" than they are to say "stupid nigger" because most people feel saying the word nigger is insensitive and is going too far, but it's okay to call someone a stupid bitch. This is because, while we have mostly learned as a people to not attack someone by saying they're as ______ as someone of a specific race, we are perfectly okay attacking someone by saying they're as _______ as a female. If I got angry and called someone a cocksucker even though that person was a straight white male--no one would bat an eyelash that I was describing him as either gay/female. If I called that exact same person a nigger--people would get upset and even tell me "hey dude, he's white, not black." Do you see what I'm talking about? Words matter.
even if all of this was true (i don't agree that it is), there are still multiple things wrong with your argument:
- "cocksucker" is still an offensive term, i think eyelashes would indeed be batted
- the word "nigger" isn't the same as the word "cocksucker" in terms of historical significance, so of course it isn't going to get the same reaction from everybody
edit: just more on why this is wrong: men are not made fun of for being men, thats mostly true, but women are, which is the correct analogy. just offhand i can think of a couple insulting terms meant for manly woman, just like they exist for girly men. those aren't as common in the gaming community, you say? well thats probably because it consists of mostly males. calling some guy a dyke wouldn't really make any sense.
i also don't think its sexist or unfair that terms for manly women can be used as insults, because i can think rationally. perhaps those that think "bitch" is a sexist term should do the same.
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On September 18 2011 18:20 ChiffonAngel wrote:
One only needs to look as far as the shoryuken.com forums to see just how ugly gamers can get towards females. I remember at one point, it was trendy to have an avatar on there of gifs depicting kicking pregnant women down flights of stairs. <sarcasm>How could that possibly be considered sexist or misogynistic?</sarcasm>
yeah, because you would be hard-pressed to find any violence against men on any of these games or forums
that was sarcasm idk if you need the tag or not
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On September 18 2011 18:16 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 16:41 lorkac wrote:
Day 9, Mr.Bitters, Husky, etc... Have all said multiple times the phrase "blew me away" or "I was blown away" and other iterations of the phrase. Not once in any of the mlg or dreamhack games did DJwheat or Apollo or any other co caster turn to them and asked them to talk about blowjobs. Why? Because they weren't female. It happens to a woman in front a giant crowd of men, and when it's pointed people get upset.
yeah, because straight guys generally don't give blowjobs. i've read a decent amount on today's gender issues and people like you really over-represent the problem. there are "pros" and "cons" to each gender in western society (if women have it so bad, why do men kill themselves at a staggeringly higher rate?), but hyper-feminist bullshit usually focuses on stuff like listing movies in which the main characters are male and then declaring how marginalized the female is due to this. there are even those that compare gender relations to racism (or even slavery) and it would be sort of comical if it wasn't insulting to groups that are (or have been in the past) actually oppressed.
Actually, feminists don't care if the lead is male or female. What you're talking about is the Bechdel Test.
Bechdel Test
Also, the reason it's practiced that gender relations is compared to slavery is because up until very very recently, women legally lost all rights when they got married. They owned no property, the had no money, they couldn't vote and they couldn't make any decisions without the approval of the male (husband).
Also, as for your comment about suicide rates. A big problem that feminists have is that women are given no agency and no autonomy. They are trained from a young age to not thing for themselves. They trained that they are owned, and that the only thing that is important is their looks. Men on the other hand are usually burdened with responsibility. Hence the phrase "Man of the house" or "Big Man on Campus" etc.... Is it strange that the gender who is forced to be the decision make (whether he wants to be or not) is more likely to use his agency to do something such as kill himself while the gender who is constantly being described as shy, weak and useless are less likely to have the agency to kill themselves. If people stopped being so misogynistic, there's a good chance the suicide rates would even out. But that's an entirely different discussion than the misogyny in Esports.
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On September 18 2011 18:23 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 18:20 ChiffonAngel wrote:
One only needs to look as far as the shoryuken.com forums to see just how ugly gamers can get towards females. I remember at one point, it was trendy to have an avatar on there of gifs depicting kicking pregnant women down flights of stairs. <sarcasm>How could that possibly be considered sexist or misogynistic?</sarcasm> yeah, because you would be hard-pressed to find any violence against men on any of these games or forums that was sarcasm idk if you need the tag or not
Not because they're men, no.
EDIT: Also there's the point of the biological function of shooting semen into a vagina being glorified (especially if that vagina is attached to someone attractive), but the biological function of having an egg that was fertilized and thus resulting in pregnancy is reviled and worthy of being booted down a flight of stairs.
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On September 18 2011 18:21 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 18:16 lorkac wrote:On September 18 2011 18:03 Ju!cy wrote:
oh come on can this be really an issue, it's not like people never insult males so why should we not insult females i mean what's your point it seems to me that you think every female needs help or that they cannot defend or speak for themselves.
no ty i know starcraft 2 female and what they speak about is their "tit-bonus".
ALL THE TIME ........GIMME A BREAK! Males are never made fun of for being men. When you say phrases like "You're the man!" "Man up!" "Grow a pair" You're telling people to be more male because it is understood that being more male is desirable. For example. It's not sexist or misogynistic to say to a female "You cheesy piece of shit!" Because that statement does not use gendered terms to showcase your disdain and anger. If you get angry and yell to at a woman saying phrases such as "YOU SPAWN CAMPING CHEATER!" or "NOOB!" or whatever else insult you'd like to throw at them that isn't derogatory towards the female gender--then it isn't sexist. For example. People are more comfortable calling someone they dislike a "stupid bitch" than they are to say "stupid nigger" because most people feel saying the word nigger is insensitive and is going too far, but it's okay to call someone a stupid bitch. This is because, while we have mostly learned as a people to not attack someone by saying they're as ______ as someone of a specific race, we are perfectly okay attacking someone by saying they're as _______ as a female. If I got angry and called someone a cocksucker even though that person was a straight white male--no one would bat an eyelash that I was describing him as either gay/female. If I called that exact same person a nigger--people would get upset and even tell me "hey dude, he's white, not black." Do you see what I'm talking about? Words matter. even if all of this was true (i don't agree that it is), there are still multiple things wrong with your argument: - "cocksucker" is still an offensive term, i think eyelashes would indeed be batted - the word "nigger" isn't the same as the word "cocksucker" in terms of historical significance, so of course it isn't going to get the same reaction from everybody
No one would correct me and say "But he's a straight white male, why would he suck cock?"
Africans were treated badly in the past, white people feel bad about them, so they try not to use words that are mean to Africans. Women though, it's okay to use words that are mean to women.
I grew up in the Philippines. I have no historical or cultural "beef" or baggage with Africans. My ancestors were enslaved as well. I still don't use words like nigger because I don't want to be offensive to Africans. Much like I try not to use words like Bitch to not be offensive to women and the long history of abuse that they have had to go through. But having moved to the US, I live in a society that not only condones using words that are offensive to women, the culture actually encourages it.
People would correct you for calling a straight white male a nigger. No one would correct you for calling him a cocksucker. They'd bat an eyelash for sure, but they'd never try to correct you.
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Is this actually a serious issue? I mean do feminists even care about this kind of stuff? I think the real problems are things like workplace discrimination, domestic abuse, sexual trafficking, etc. We can argue all day about semantics, but it just boils down to gaming being a nearly entirely male-oriented interest, which is why it's unsurprising that we see such language. These kinds of phrases are often uttered colloquially, and without harmful intent, and likely in disregard of the vast array of cultural and social implications which can be infinitely drawn from these kind of issues. Men are men, women are women, and this kind of language really just reflects a statement on socially appropriate gender conventions.
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Am I a bad person for thinking this article is absolutely ridiculous?
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On September 18 2011 18:43 KimJongChill wrote:
Is this actually a serious issue? I mean do feminists even care about this kind of stuff? I think the real problems are things like workplace discrimination, domestic abuse, sexual trafficking, etc. We can argue all day about semantics, but it just boils down to gaming being a nearly entirely male-oriented interest, which is why it's unsurprising that we see such language. These kinds of phrases are often uttered colloquially, and without harmful intent, and likely in disregard of the vast array of cultural and social implications which can be infinitely drawn from these kind of issues. Men are men, women are women, and this kind of language really just reflects a statement on socially appropriate gender conventions.
Trying to be more respectful of women should not *just* be a feminist issue.
The reason these phrases are uttered colloquially is because we as a society accept that it's okay to use anti-women terms as "normal" "everyday" "common" language. That shouldn't be okay. If I'm playing a team game and some bronze player started building 3 engineering bays and not making scvs, I wouldn't type out "Stop being like a polish immigrant and get your shit together!" because that's an offensive thing to say. However, if instead I said "Stop bitching around and get your shit together!" no one would feel as if what I said was out of place. Why? Because it's colloquial to use anti-female terms and no one questions your word choice of using anti-women phrases to describe things you dislike.
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Obviously I'm really late here but I thought the article was on the whole an honest emotional piece that talked about some important issues in every day language. It's unfortunate that he misquoted Day[9] (edit: actually this isn't confirmed yet) and doubly unfortunate that this was basically the only thing the OP of this thread highlighted, and even so I'm amazed at the number of people who responded under the assumption that the author was claiming Day[9] is a horrible sexist or (even more laughably) that this was a sensationalist news piece written by a hack journalist for a mainstream media source. These people clearly have no fucking clue what Star City Games is, nor did they bother to read anything other than the out of context quote, they just saw a guy they like and 'sexism' and raced to mash the post button - ironically a behaviour that is talked about quite a bit in the article.
Is the article perfect? No. But it's not meant to be an gold standard academic discussion of sexism in gaming either - it's a guy trying to work out how he'll explain to his future daughter the kinds of attitudes she'll inevitably face if she enters the gaming community, and simultaneously trying to figure out how he's supposed to get other gamers (even his friends and people he greatly respects) to care that women face these attitudes.
There's a big difference between stereotyping gamers as sexist and explaining to your daughter that sexism is rife in the gaming community. Geordie Tait does not think you are a sexist just because you play games. He does think his daughter is going to meet a lot of sexists in your 'community', and that not enough people in said community speak out about it, and he's right.
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I'am sick and tired of people in this thread or anywhere saying "Men insult each other all the time, so why can't we insult them!? They should live with that".
To those I say grow a backbone.
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If you have a community that is somewhat one dimensional in a way, you'll often see them create a 'the rest' vs 'us' kind of bond. For instance the hardcore gamers are basically all white / asian male, which creates a racist and sexist jargon.
If you went to the yearly meeting of the twitter TSL group (Team Sexy Ladies), you'll probably see female african americans stereotype and downtalk white males, among others.
It's just a way of finding the lowest common denominator to create a feeling of belonging among the participants, and thus necessarely shutting out others.
That's atleast my take on it.
Edit. Ofcourse there's also the added factor of everyone being anonymous.
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I don't want to read so many replies since i don't care but is it ok for females to insult males?
Nvm i won't check this thread it rly leads to nowhere at all.
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EPT
