EPTWith that said, of course there are a lot of sexism but you won't really encounter it if you don't interact with idiots.
Sexism in gaming culture - Page 31
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Jongl0
631 Posts
With that said, of course there are a lot of sexism but you won't really encounter it if you don't interact with idiots. | ||
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hummingbird23
Norway359 Posts
On September 18 2011 21:33 aTo wrote: that u talk about things you dont even understand (if i read this thread) if u tell me that "you young bitch" is offensive to the female world... you got no idea what is gender mainstream about i think this issue is too big for your heads to understand what its realy about MAN THERE ARE MUCH MORE OFFENSIVE THINGS OMG its not about sayin "you young bitch" on a youtube video guys... there are countrys where woman are not allowed to show their faces or even leave their house... THATS what its about guys.. not motherfuckin phrases on a youtube video €: (srry for bad english ^^) So what if the Middle East has misogyny stamped all over it? What does that have to do with the way words are used in the gaming community? It's not a choice between dealing with that (as if you could) and dealing with this. I watched Dreamhack and winced many many times, not at the gameplay, but at the banter. | ||
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Maand
326 Posts
On September 18 2011 20:05 Ju!cy wrote: Then don't call it sexism but differencies. I hate gendermainstreming and i hate activists my opinion is that everybody should be accepted the same way and there is no need for any activistic wake-up call or similar stuff which will just push everybody back in a corner and make males think they need to hold themselves back or that they are saying wrong stuff or they need to surpress their true character. My girlfriend isn't offended at all when I call her bitch and I'm not offended when she hits me back with cocksucker during latenight-engagements in bed. I will insult any girl that offends me and I will insult any guy that offends me (should I care, at least, what i do not most of the times). The thing is when you call a friend or a girlfriend of a boyfriend names, you know you can allow yourself to do this, and they won't hold it against you it is fine. It is unspoken agreement between you two. And I'am not talking about a wake up call. It doesn't have to do with gender, it has to do with simple decency. As long as you insult someone aiming directly or indirectly at their sex it is sexism. | ||
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aTo
Austria588 Posts
there wount be a lot of people who gonna tell u that it was offensive even if u show it a girl they will tell u that day9 wasnt offensive... they will even laugh at it.. you make an elephant out of an egg if we would complain about every phrase that was told on the internet - from males or femals - we would have to judge like everyone.. i also rage 'bout girls they even do 'bout me but if u talk about female oppression you are on the very wrong way with this thread | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
Anyway ... the point was that sean wasnt talking about women then ... he was talkigtn about 1 woman in particular so thats no sexist | ||
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Tzeval
44 Posts
For the sake of argument you might have the most gender-neutral intentions in the world (and you don't, don't for one second think you that). But when you say the word "bitch" (yes, it's gender-coded, no, it's not gender-neutral) in any context you are placing, at least part, blame on the female gender. Even if that person didn't take offense from it, you're still doing the biggest harm. You're socializing unfair norms, both to yourself, the person you're directing it to and to anyone in ear-shot. I don't really get that. Words change it's meaning, depending on the social circumstances. Why should the word "bitch" be an exception? And when the social group takes no offense in the meaning, why should come harm from that? Words are just tools to communicate. If the word "bitch" deliveres the desired meaning in the best way than there's no reason not to use it. Furthermore should we stop to use words that have a male komponent too? For example "Bullshit" is something that is produced by a male when one is talking about the original definition. Probably most people don't take offense in this word, so why should one stop using it? Sexism in Culture is worth discussing, but don't blame it on words. Actions are always more clear than words. | ||
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Bubble-T
Australia105 Posts
On September 18 2011 21:28 Longshank wrote: It's still a dishonest use of the quote. The quote was Day9 telling a story about how into BW he was in highschool and used the term "...you young bitch" to make a point. The article makes it look as if Day9 actually said that, which technically he did, just as someone reading a book loud would have actually have uttered the words spoken by the characters. It's still a shitty and errorous way to quote someone. I appreciate your reasoning but I disagree. It's the third time he's told that story, once he didn't use the word "bitch", the other time he used it earlier on and then censored it later in the story (for some reason?) and this time he used it as quoted. It's not central to the story or any point Day[9] is making and I think its plain that he is using it simply as common language. I like Day[9] a lot. So does Geordie (the article's author). There's no slander in that article, he makes it clear that Day[9] is a great guy who's worth listening to. He makes no implication that Day[9] is consciously or purposefully sexist, or that he is exceptionally sexist or any of the things his fans seem to be worried about. The whole point of that section is to highlight that negatively gender-biased language is a norm in gaming culture. Like I posted earlier I'm pretty sad that the OP of this thread focused so much on the Day[9] quote because it made it look like this was a hit piece on Day[9] when it absolutely isn't. | ||
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ChiffonAngel
43 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:08 Tzeval wrote: I don't really get that. Words change it's meaning, depending on the social circumstances. Why should the word "bitch" be an exception? And when the social group takes no offense in the meaning, why should come harm from that? Words are just tools to communicate. If the word "bitch" deliveres the desired meaning in the best way than there's no reason not to use it. Furthermore should we stop to use words that have a male komponent too? For example "Bullshit" is something that is produced by a male when one is talking about the original definition. Probably most people don't take offense in this word, so why should one stop using it? Sexism in Culture is worth discussing, but don't blame it on words. Actions are always more clear than words. Life is never that easy. In general, people are prideful, arrogant, sensitive, and insecure, which is why we have to walk on eggshells in public, and can only speak comfortably among friends/internet where everyone is your friend. | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
i saw this mentioned earlier, about Slayers_Eve and about how it was sexist how we weren't supporting her... Wasn't the main argument against her was that it was a sexist move to pick her up? That she ONLY got the job, admitted in an interview, because they "wanted more female professional gamers". That attitude is truly sexism. | ||
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DH_Remorse
Denmark139 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:12 Bubble-T wrote: I appreciate your reasoning but I disagree. It's the third time he's told that story, once he didn't use the word "bitch", the other time he used it earlier on and then censored it later in the story (for some reason?) and this time he used it as quoted. It's not central to the story or any point Day[9] is making and I think its plain that he is using it simply as common language. Of course it was a part of the story, as I said to illustrate how into BW his high school self was that he'd even call his gf a bitch for using GG wrongly. I bid you to find any occasion where he call someone a bitch in similar fashion, should be an easy find since there's thousands of hours of him talking and you claim it's in his common language. He swears quite a lot in his dailies aswell so it's not like he's holding back. Just because it's not a central part doesn't mean that it's not a part. | ||
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TMStarcraft
Australia686 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:12 Grumbels wrote: A woman is allowed to find MtG off-putting in a man. She is also allowed to post about how off-putting she finds this on a blog, and while I agree the tone of her article was utterly obnoxious it is not a valid excuse for the hordes of "dumb bitch, how dare she dislike Jon Finkel" posts all on the internet. That's sexism in action and if you say anything like "well she deserved it" then you're just victim-blaming. What next, "well she deserved to be raped with that shirt and saying those mean things" ? I don't see why not. Yes she is allowed to do all those things, but the second she took that experience and posted it up onto a public forum, she opened herself up to that kind of criticism. The rest of the argument is just straw-manning. | ||
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nooboon
2602 Posts
Instead i was reading an article which tried to explain how the internet views women, and that day9 was somehow sexist. | ||
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Bubble-T
Australia105 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:36 Longshank wrote: Of course it was a part of the story, as I said to illustrate how into BW his high school self was that he'd even call his gf a bitch for using GG wrongly. I bid you to find any occasion where he call someone a bitch in similar fashion, should be an easy find since there's thousands of hours of him talking and you claim it's in his common language. He swears quite a lot in his dailies aswell so it's not like he's holding back. Just because it's not a central part doesn't mean that it's not a part. I think you've misinterpreted what I mean by "common language" but ultimately I think we'll have to disagree here. I don't think he swears much at all either, not that I have a problem with swearing in general. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:40 TMStarcraft wrote: Terrible article is terrible. That is all. I don't see why not. Yes she is allowed to do all those things, but the second she took that experience and posted it up onto a public forum, she opened herself up to that kind of criticism. The rest of the argument is just straw-manning. Don't you think you're missing a logical step? "She is allowed to do X, but then we can abuse her for it.", huh? (edit: misphrased it, sorry, I meant that I don't think having her do something you disagree with means you have the right to call her sexist things and then defend yourself by saying she brought it on herself, because the sexism in itself is wrong) | ||
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Bubble-T
Australia105 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:22 darklight54321 wrote: btw i saw this mentioned earlier, about Slayers_Eve and about how it was sexist how we weren't supporting her... Wasn't the main argument against her was that it was a sexist move to pick her up? That she ONLY got the job, admitted in an interview, because they "wanted more female professional gamers". That attitude is truly sexism. Yes, it's discriminatory based on gender - they believe that she will be better able to popularise the game than a male player. You always get similar comments in discussions about affirmative action programs, which are indeed discriminatory based on race. What you need to understand is that when people decry 'sexism' they are not decrying all forms of gender based discrimination, and when they decry 'racism' they are not decrying all forms of race based discrimination. Context is very important, particularly with respect to what the balance between groups is in the mainstream, who generally has power and privilege and who lacks it, etc. Eve's signing is an explicit move to combat the sexist circumstances that already exist and lead to the incredibly male-dominated state of affairs we have in SC2 right now. Don't take it out of context. edit: I should make it clear that the sexist circumstances are society wide and not confined to gaming. Women are not encouraged (or discouraged) from competitive enterprises, video games, and even technological pursuits in general to a much greater extent than males in our society and this compounds with other factors to produce very few women who have the inclination, time, support etc. to become a top level progamer. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:46 Grumbels wrote: Don't you think you're missing a logical step? "She is allowed to do X, but then we can abuse her for it." , huh? Of fucking course. Not physically of course, but verbally. That has nothing to do with gender at all. If you come out and publish retarded offensive sensationalist posts, verbal abuse by the general public, esp the community you're denigrating is the fucking correct course of action, regardless of gender. What if a guy posted something like "I was dating a women, but then I found out she had a major in english lit". Would you be offended if we called him a dumb bitch as well? | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:50 Bubble-T wrote: Yes, it's discriminatory based on gender - they believe that she will be better able to popularise the game than a male player. You always get similar comments in discussions about affirmative action programs, which are indeed discriminatory based on race. What you need to understand is that when people decry 'sexism' they are not decrying all forms of gender based discrimination, and when they decry 'racism' they are not decrying all forms of race based discrimination. Context is very important, particularly with respect to what the balance between groups is in the mainstream, who generally has power and privilege and who lacks it, etc. Eve's signing is an explicit move to combat the sexist circumstances that already exist and lead to the incredibly male-dominated state of affairs we have in SC2 right now. Don't take it out of context. I really hate this argument. "When we do good things for only a certain group it's not discrimination. We're only making up for the past". Fuck that. You don't make things equal by unequally supporting different groups. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On September 18 2011 22:46 Grumbels wrote: Don't you think you're missing a logical step? "She is allowed to do X, but then we can abuse her for it." , huh? You're allowed to for instance be unfaithful to your boy/girl friend who you've been with for 5 years, but if you start blogging about it you might catch shit. Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean it's morally correct in the culture you're presenting it to. | ||
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