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On April 19 2014 12:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:And they've done studies on how many people you'd need to send on a colonization mission to maintain genetic diversity... around 40,000. Gonna be a long time before we build anything capable of going into space and holding 400 people much less 40,000, not even considering needing to travel hundreds of light-years...
And they all need to know what they're doing too. X__X
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On April 19 2014 12:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:And they've done studies on how many people you'd need to send on a colonization mission to maintain genetic diversity... around 40,000. Gonna be a long time before we build anything capable of going into space and holding 400 people much less 40,000, not even considering needing to travel hundreds of light-years...
That's the same number of people that were on each of the supercarriers in Starcraft!
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On April 20 2014 07:17 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 12:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:All these worlds and so out of reach. And they've done studies on how many people you'd need to send on a colonization mission to maintain genetic diversity... around 40,000. Gonna be a long time before we build anything capable of going into space and holding 400 people much less 40,000, not even considering needing to travel hundreds of light-years... That's the same number of people that were on each of the supercarriers in Starcraft!
And then in 2 centuries they'll breed to many billions of people! Wait what?
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And the first settlers will be revered as gods by the distant generations.
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I dont see how we could ever travel these unimaginable distances between the stars.
I think we should strongly consider the possibility that we will never be able to leave this planet and consequently think about how we preserve our resources here as good as possible.
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On April 20 2014 09:41 Redox wrote:
I dont see how we could ever travel these unimaginable distances between the stars.
I think we should strongly consider the possibility that we will never be able to leave this planet and consequently think about how we preserve our resources here as good as possible.
Colony ships.
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On April 20 2014 09:41 Redox wrote:
I dont see how we could ever travel these unimaginable distances between the stars.
I think we should strongly consider the possibility that we will never be able to leave this planet and consequently think about how we preserve our resources here as good as possible.
I think until we (humans) can travel across the galaxy as feasibly as we could cross the Atlantic in the 1500s or 1600s (or 1000s if you're a badass Norseman), then forming colonies on foreign planets should be a very low priority.
Considering the possibility of what you propose is certainly wise. Until we reach a point in technology that allows for some type of space travel at velocities that are magnitudes faster than light, we should focus 100% on our own planet 
If you want to get really sci-fi, we should wait until we can generate/modify atmospheres so that we can settle on the Moon or Mars.
Though to be honest, the infinite supplies of ores from asteroid mining would certainly be a huge milestone in extraterrestrial resource extraction.
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On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity.
Congratulation, you have shipped enough genetic diversity. Now what?
A few dozen women will bear 40000 embryos! Surrogate wombs you say? Who will change 40000 diapers? How about a few dozen people teaching 40000 kids?
Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas?
How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship....
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On April 20 2014 11:49 xpldngmn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity. Congratulation, you have shipped enough genetic diversity. Now what? A few dozen women will bear 40000 embryos! Surrogate wombs you say? Who will change 40000 diapers? How about a few dozen people teaching 40000 kids? Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas? How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship....
Clone 40000 people, from stored genetic material, overwrite their minds with stored human consciousness', that were stored on the ships computer.
Go to sleep in a lab on Earth wake up in a clone bay on a planet lightyears away.
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On April 20 2014 11:23 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 09:41 Redox wrote:
I dont see how we could ever travel these unimaginable distances between the stars.
I think we should strongly consider the possibility that we will never be able to leave this planet and consequently think about how we preserve our resources here as good as possible. I think until we (humans) can travel across the galaxy as feasibly as we could cross the Atlantic in the 1500s or 1600s (or 1000s if you're a badass Norseman), then forming colonies on foreign planets should be a very low priority. Considering the possibility of what you propose is certainly wise. Until we reach a point in technology that allows for some type of space travel at velocities that are magnitudes faster than light, we should focus 100% on our own planet If you want to get really sci-fi, we should wait until we can generate/modify atmospheres so that we can settle on the Moon or Mars. Though to be honest, the infinite supplies of ores from asteroid mining would certainly be a huge milestone in extraterrestrial resource extraction.
Well we did land on the moon in what was basically a tin can with a TI-84 for a computer. And it wasn't long ago the first man made object left our solar system. We are getting closer and closer to understand how we could travel distances near or beyond the speed of light. It's not so far fetched to imagine humans reaching the edges of our solar system in 100-200 years.
But truth be told I'd bet we do something to set humanity back before we get there. Something along the lines of burning the libraries of Alexandria mixed with some World War II. But theoretically we already have enough tech to do quite a bit if we just reallocated some funding.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vgl4M5t.png)
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On April 20 2014 11:49 xpldngmn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity. Congratulation, you have shipped enough genetic diversity. Now what? A few dozen women will bear 40000 embryos! Surrogate wombs you say? Who will change 40000 diapers? How about a few dozen people teaching 40000 kids? Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas? How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship....
Could be reasonable that by the time we can travel interstellar distances we also know how to make babies without a woman and robots able to make other robots.
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On April 20 2014 12:14 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 11:49 xpldngmn wrote:On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity. Congratulation, you have shipped enough genetic diversity. Now what? A few dozen women will bear 40000 embryos! Surrogate wombs you say? Who will change 40000 diapers? How about a few dozen people teaching 40000 kids? Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas? How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship.... Clone 40000 people, from stored genetic material, overwrite their minds with stored human consciousness', that were stored on the ships computer. Go to sleep in a lab on Earth wake up in a clone bay on a planet lightyears away.
Yeah, just "clone", easy as that. "Overwrite minds", child's play.
Why not just beam ourselves to that new planet, eh?
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On April 20 2014 12:31 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 11:49 xpldngmn wrote:On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity. Congratulation, you have shipped enough genetic diversity. Now what? A few dozen women will bear 40000 embryos! Surrogate wombs you say? Who will change 40000 diapers? How about a few dozen people teaching 40000 kids? Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas? How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship.... Could be reasonable that by the time we can travel interstellar distances we also know how to make babies without a woman and robots able to make other robots.
And certainly we will be able to modify our DNA, so we just have to bring a hard drive with the sequence of these 40k people, or even not need to worry about genetic diversity as we can change our DNA as we want. I don't think genetic diversity will be the limit factor for interstellar space travel. Cost/expected reward seems to be a more important problem then, seeing how that is what governs everything today.
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On April 20 2014 11:49 xpldngmn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 12:29 zlefin wrote:
You don't need that many people; you need that much genetic diversity.
With effective cryostorage you need only a few dozen people or even less, maybe none, though none would be hard to do; with tens of thousands of embryo in storage.
Far less to ship while providing enough genetic diversity. Or do you want to slowly add your genetic diversity? Would you have all second borns (does this word exist in the english language?) be implanted? What to do with women who don't want to do that? Go all Aeon Flux on their asses... erm vaginas? How long would it take for "a few dozen" to change the new planet towards supporting 40000 people? Bring robots? Might be too much to ship....
Yes, you would add genetic diversity as needed, not all at once, when your actual crew is 100 
The assumption is that people would accept being surrogate mothers in advance. Also knowing that the alternative was inbreeding, genetic decay and the inevitable extinction of all your offsprings would act as a strong incentive.
So genetics seems to be a minor problem compared to the engineering and social challenges.
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I guess if we could build a ship to go there, i believe it would make so much years that population would have to renew itself ON BOARD of the ship, so you would need a vessel way over 40K people capacity.
Also i wonder in how many years 40K different people would start to have cross genes (i mean you know, if you breed in the same family you have a chance of the child being... retarted (sorry i don't know the english word but you understand what i mean).
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On April 23 2014 22:27 FFW_Rude wrote:
I guess if we could build a ship to go there, i believe it would make so much years that population would have to renew itself ON BOARD of the ship, so you would need a vessel way over 40K people capacity.
Also i wonder in how many years 40K different people would start to have cross genes (i mean you know, if you breed in the same family you have a chance of the child being... retarted (sorry i don't know the english word but you understand what i mean).
If we model this in a perfect scenario...
20k men, 20k women, each couple has 2 kids, averaging out to 1 boy and 1 girl. If we assume no cross-generational mating, there are now 20k men and 20k women that can have kids with 19,999 of the opposite sex without fear of inbreeding. Every generation, this subtraction doubles, 3rd generation has 19,998, 4th 19,996, 5th 19,992, and so on. You have to get to the 13th generation in this perfect world to have a pool of about half of potential mating partners. By the 4th generation or so, though, most defects are negligible (you theoretically only share 0.002% of significant inherited genetic material with 4th cousins), which leaves the idealized chance of mating with somebody undesirable at 1 in 19,996, or 0.005% of dangerous inbreeding in every generation if done randomly.
Of course, this increases as more imperfections are added to the model, but 40k people is more than enough to maintain enough genetic diversity to not have significant problems with birth defects. One might have to establish some sort of rules or regulations that ensure inbreeding doesn't occur, but it shouldn't exactly be common.
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On April 23 2014 22:27 FFW_Rude wrote:
I guess if we could build a ship to go there, i believe it would make so much years that population would have to renew itself ON BOARD of the ship, so you would need a vessel way over 40K people capacity.
Also i wonder in how many years 40K different people would start to have cross genes (i mean you know, if you breed in the same family you have a chance of the child being... retarted (sorry i don't know the english word but you understand what i mean).
I don't understand. You only need genetic material of 40k people, and women who are able and willing to offer their wombs to supply genetically diverse babies (ones that are not their own). In theory you need only a big fridge a single woman and a person who is able to plant embryos into her. Ofcourse you also need people to build other things but you certainly dont need thousands of people on a single spaceship...
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There's no need to make a gigantic space ship that could support more than 40K people, we could just as easily build more ships of lesser size, and it would be more safe that way (if one of the ships is destroyed, there are others still en route to the other planet).
About the social problems being in a space ship with no way out causes, if there's more than one ship, you could move to one of the others vessels in case there's any problem of importance (like, someone threatened to kill you, or something). If the ships are still large enough, it would be just like living in a small village, so this topic probably doesn't deserve much attention, apart from the fact that you're stuck in space. I think the best way to overcome this is by either educating children so that they love being in space, or at least, they don't feel deppresed about it, or by putting them in hibernation, which would solve any problem about this topic because they'd be effectively dead.
Lastly, I'm sure we'll find a way to overcome inbreeding by the time we're capable of interstellar travel, so maybe we won't need 40k people in spaceships in the first place, maybe only a thousand or so. Or we may even be able to just send robots and make them artificially create humans (robot sex :D).
P.S.: All of this is, of course, just a random guy from the internet theorycrafting. So I'm probably wrong :D
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On April 23 2014 23:27 FallenStar wrote:
There's no need to make a gigantic space ship that could support more than 40K people, we could just as easily build more ships of lesser size, and it would be more safe that way (if one of the ships is destroyed, there are others still en route to the other planet).
About the social problems being in a space ship with no way out causes, if there's more than one ship, you could move to one of the others vessels in case there's any problem of importance (like, someone threatened to kill you, or something). If the ships are still large enough, it would be just like living in a small village, so this topic probably doesn't deserve much attention, apart from the fact that you're stuck in space. I think the best way to overcome this is by either educating children so that they love being in space, or at least, they don't feel deppresed about it, or by putting them in hibernation, which would solve any problem about this topic because they'd be effectively dead.
Lastly, I'm sure we'll find a way to overcome inbreeding by the time we're capable of interstellar travel, so maybe we won't need 40k people in spaceships in the first place, maybe only a thousand or so. Or we may even be able to just send robots and make them artificially create humans (robot sex :D).
P.S.: All of this is, of course, just a random guy from the internet theorycrafting. So I'm probably wrong :D
You are absolutely right. Also, depending on the trajectory, the denizens may be able to not only craft new ships in drydock but also acquire new resources from extra-solar objects. Keep in mind drydock is possible during any period of no acceleration.
Don't forget that the potential for research is huge; it's likely the majority of the crew will be scientists of all backgrounds with enough work to keep them busy for at least a few years.
Also, the bit about genetic diversity is a bit of guesswork. It's just as likely that 100 people breeding into 40,000 will survive just as well as 40,000 people with a stagnation birth rate. Diversity is more important in the realm of infection than anything else, and in space it may be possible to completely eliminate infections (especially in ships of 200 people or less).
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Ideally you could send robots ahead of the colonization fleet before you move out. Ships with only robotic factories can be cheaper and travel faster than human ships since they don't need any pesky life support stuff. That way when the humans arrive they can have at least housing and a surveyed planet ready and waiting for them. By the time we can send a colony ship I'm pretty sure computers should be able to handle setting up factories and mining operations on their own.
Step 1: Send a couple of drone fleets that begin basic things like survey work, building landing pads and housing, setting up basic factories and if they are able to strip mine resources.
Step 2: Send a small contingent of human engineers (100-200 or so, enough that social problems aren't to harsh. They can live in a colony ship and then a smaller spaceport) that should arrive ~30-50 years before main colony fleet together with another drone fleet. These guys set up robot mining operations, more advanced facilities (basically the previous drones have dug out and set up houses, these guys make the hospitals etc).
Step 3: Main colony fleet arrives.
Since different ships can go at different speeds you can basically send all of them at once too.
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EPT
